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  1. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    I am a pre-trib rapture believer. This means I believe Lord Jesus will come to rescue His Church from the wrath that will come upon the Earth in the future. There are many brothers and sisters who hold different belief from my own. I think supernaturally our Father will bring all of us to unity in thought. I believe this because I know the Holy Spirit is NOT a spirit of division. We cannot continue to be a house divided. The Body of Christ is ONE. Have you ever thought about that. Jesus said He is presenting Himself a Church without spot or wrinkle.Eph. 5:27.We are divided on so many issues, and,everyone seems to be steadfast in their own position. But which position is His position? The Bible says that God is not the author of confusion 1 Cor. 14:33.
     
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  2. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    Amen HMFJ.

    I am not a Pre-Trib Rapture believer. But I never debate that doctrine. And I'll back you up on whatever you want to believe. I care more about the sheep than what they believe. Otherwise I'm a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. Paul says that we'll meet Jesus in the air. So I guess I'll see you there. Be there or be square. Because what matters is that we share the same common denominator. We follow the Lamb wherever He goes. We'd rather have Jesus than silver or gold. You're right, at some point we're all going to be on the same page.

    It's not going to make one bit of difference to the Lord whether or not we solve these doctrinal puzzles. Remember His demeanor when He said John the Baptist had come in the spirit of Elijah. He didn't demand that they believed it, He just said if you are willing to accept it.

    "And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.

    So don't worry HM, our house is not divided about what matters the most. :)

    "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways.
     
  3. Revealing Times

    Revealing Times Well-Known Member

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    Sadly I think many post tribbers will be hollering to go back down when the Holy Spirit is taking them to Heaven. :liturgy:

    Let my people Go
     
  4. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Amen brother. And let us not forget love We have to love one another regardless of our positional views.I do wonder at the view that Lord Jesus has already come, or Lord Jesus is not coming or Lord Jesus told a lie because he hasn't come and we wait for His return in vain. Really these views have provoked this thread. I don't know how anybody else feels about these views, I am just puzzled .
    1.Lord Jesus said He was going away to prepare a place for us.
    2.Lord Jesus said He was coming to get us
    3.He did not lie.
     
  5. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    You think? ^_^
     
  6. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    You are obviously correct. So then it means that not everyone understood what He said. And it's not just that they don't understand, they don't all WANT to understand. Most people put their preconceived schematic before the truth. And some have been working on these things for a long time so they don't want to switch out to another doctrine. Although some do. This is from the the thread that was closed:

    And that was a response to the OP who thought that he was a preterist but was seriously considering the Revelation 12 sign.

    People are scared. The pre trib people are scared of the idea of going through a 3 or more year tribulation. And the preterists are petrified of the Antichrist. So people construct and then join up with an accepable schematic in order to avoid something that is mentally unacceptable to them.

    This is the exact same reason why Jesus said "if you are willing to accept it". Because if John the Baptist failed in turning the hearts of the fathers to the sons, they were set to get the wrong end of the stick. "Lest I come and smite the earth with a decree of utter destruction.

    “Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes. And he will turn the hearts of fathers to their children and the hearts of children to their fathers, lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction.”

    "And if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come.
     
  7. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    I am puzzled as to how a Christian can take so many different positions.The Holy Spirit indwells the Church. Lord Jesus promised
    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
    I don't believe the Holy Spirit says one thing to one person and completely refutes it to another. He is not the author of confusion.

    Yes people are afraid, but that is not the state of being for a Christian. How many times did Lord Jesus say fear not?o_O We should be getting excited in earnest expectation of our Lord Jesus Christ. He gave us signs to look for so we would know the season we were in. Hello!
     
  8. Dave Watchman

    Dave Watchman Well-Known Member

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    I know. I was thinking the same things. If a person could be right on one thing, wouldn't that mean that they have a healthy dose of the Holy Spirit and be correct about ALL things. Even a specific Church denomination, if they had the Holy Spirit directing them into all truth there should be one denomination that's best. Maybe we're lucky. Remember that husband and wife who lied about their land sale in Acts when the Holy Spirit was poured out. They were dying before they hit the floor. I wouldn't be typing this note right now.

    The only thing that I can think of right now is that maybe this eschatology part is different. Maybe it's not meant to be fully understood by everyone. Isaac Newton thought that prophecy was only meant to be understood after it was fulfilled and be for the Glory of God.

    Also, you might have noticed by now that the odd time you'll come in contact with the odd person who seems irritating or annoying. Maybe it's not given to everyone to know the secrets of the Kingdom of God. Maybe God still has some things yet to be revealed. Remember the disciples didn't even understand what was going to happen even though Jesus had told them on many occasions:

    Jesus Predicts His Death a Third Time

    17Now Jesus was going up to Jerusalem. On the way, he took the Twelve aside and said to them,
    18
    “We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19and will hand him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”​

    But they never understood. Even when the time came and it happened. They didn't seem to understand until after the resurrection. Maybe because the Father would not yet allow it to be understood. Maybe not even the Adversary would be allowed to understand exactly what was going on at that time. Otherwise he may not have worked so hard to crucify the Lord of Glory. Maybe he doesn't even fully understand what's going on right now and he still thinks something will change and that he might have a fighting chance. If I was him, I'd just give up and spare everyone the drama.

    I'm with you on this. But it still is scary, considering that it might really be close. Maybe it's like jumping out of a plane. You're standing there with your parachute on, right at the edge with the door open. The wind, the engine noise and everyone is screaming don't be afraid, it's OK. Jump, JUMP, LET GO AND JUMP!
     
  9. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    You have already gone off track by making "tribulation" and "wrath" the same thing.
    They clearly are not, since they are two different Greek words.


    Part of the tribulation period is the wrath of Satan, based on the following verse.

    Rev 12:12  Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time." 


    It seems like no matter how many times pre-tribbers are shown these facts, they simply ignore it in an effort to preserve their doctrine.



    All false systems of interpretation are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.


    .
     
  10. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Prophecy is for Believers 1 Corinthians 14:22b
    The Bible has plenty of information on how the Lord’s plans have been fulfilled in the past and what we can expect in our future. Also, according to His plan, very few will truly understand the full scope and implications of future events. Daniel 12:10 Some reasons for this are:

    1/ Those who may profess to be Christian, but in their hearts are not:
    1 John 4:4-6 Believers in Christ, you belong in God’s family and you can discern false prophets because the God who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. The world listens to the teachings of worldly people, but we belong to God and whoever knows God pays heed to the truth, those who are not His people cannot comprehend the prophetic message.

    Isaiah 29:13-14 The Lord says: Because this people worship Me with empty words and pay Me lip service, while their hearts are far from Me and their religion is but human precepts, learnt by rote; therefore I shall shock them and shock again and their wisdom and discernment will be lost. Matthew 7:21-23

    2/ Belief in false teaching, leading to a fixed mindset of wrong ideas: Ezekiel 14:3-5
    The prime example of a false teaching is the pre-tribulation rapture. This idea denies many Scriptures that say; all will be tested, 1 Peter 4:12, Luke 21:35. This leads to a careless attitude toward prophecy. If you believe you are good enough and sufficiently holy to be taken directly to heaven, then you will be judged for judging yourself. Humility and trust in the Lord’s saving grace, Isaiah 30:15, must be our attitude, not the pretentious belief of a removal from the earth to avoid any perceived difficulties. In John 17:15 Jesus asks for protection, not removal and in John 3:13 No one will go to heaven, only He who came from it.

    2 Peter 2:1-3 In the past, there were false prophets among the people, just as now you will have false teachers. They will promote their theories and speculations, twisting Scripture to suit their fanciful notions. Many will follow their sheer fabrications and credulous people will make them rich and famous, but judgement waits for them: a long prepared destruction will fall upon their heads.

    Jeremiah 23:16-17 The Lord says: Do not listen to your false prophets, who give you false hope and voice their own fancies, it is not the Lord’s Words they speak. They say: ‘prosperity will be yours’ and to all who follow their devious beliefs: ‘No harm will befall you’.

    Isaiah 29:9-12 The Lord says: I will place My spirit of mis-understanding upon all those who are ‘drunk, but not with wine’ [that is: who allow themselves to be fooled by false teachings], so it becomes impossible for them to see the truth. Isaiah 8:16

    3/ Preterism and non-literal interpretation:
    To think that all prophecies have been fulfilled or they are just metaphors and allegories, is a serious error that leaves those who believe that way, without proper knowledge or understanding about the end times.
    2 Peter 1:19 We confirm the message of the prophets, to which you will do well to study; it will enlighten your minds, like a lamp shining into a dark place.

    4/ Denial or straight out refusal to try to comprehend the prophesies:
    Ezekiel 33:31-33 My people will listen to the prophets, but they will not take any action. Fine Words, they will say but with insincerity, for their hearts are set on selfish gain. When disaster strikes, as it will, then they will know the truth of prophecy.

    Isaiah 48:3-6 Long ago, I announced what will happen, but because of your stubbornness and your refusal to accept instruction, you think everything can be explained by chance or by natural occurrence. You read the Word, consider it well and admit the truth of it.

    Hosea 9:7 The Day of punishment and vengeance comes and all Israel will know it. Their prophets are fools and their wise leaders are like madmen, because they are all deep in enmity with God and He will remember their guilt.

    Revelation 22:7b…Happy is the person who takes to heart the Words of prophecy in this Book.
    Reference: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged and paraphrased.









     
  11. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    What?:eek: ^_^ Hey, they lied intentionally, and deceitfully. I believe our Father knows when His children are sincere, even if they are wrong.^_^
    I am no scholar like Newton, but, I think prophecy is given to prepare His people for what is about to happen. The trouble is, not everyone believes.
    Isa. 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

    Romans 10:
    15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    Yeah, I have a rather long ignore list.^_^

    He reveals the mysteries to His Church. However much confusion has been sown into the Church. All of this division is not of God.

    1Cor.2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    The disciples could not understand because the indwelling Holy Spirit had not been given to them yet .The Holy Spirit came into them at Pentecost. They did not understand many of Lord Jesus' parables when He gave them, but, they heard Him and believed what He said in spite of their lack of understanding. For this, Lord Jesus called them blessed.

    Matt. 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

    15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

    16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
    Oh, he knows his time is short. He has already been defeated.
    Rev. 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
    ^_^ :amen: Yes indeed! :) But, I would think it would be an exhilarating scary, wouldn't you?
     
  12. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    Hi elder brother! :hug: Is that handsome man in your avatar you? Anyway, I agree with you here. Lots of weeds have been sown int the Church.
    Now, you know we disagree here. But I still love you. :) I know there are lots of false teachings out there. Matter of fact, that is one reason for this thread. I hope I am wrong, but I believe the pre-trib rapture will happen only for those expecting it.I hope every believer indwelt by Holy Spirit will be caught up to meet the Lord even if they do not believe it will happen. But that is for another thread. :)
    :amen: We agree here elder brother.:clap:
    We agree here also. :tutu: :) See! We agree more than we disagree. :)
     
  13. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Yes, I was in our apartment in Amman, Jordan at the time, writing the first of my 4 books of over 500 articles on the Prophetic Word.
    I understand your stance on the rapture and how you feel committed to it. As far as I know, I have been unable to convince any rapture to heaven believer, that it is a false teaching. But my task is to present the truth and if people are not open to it, then the reality is; only the holy Spirit can change them.

    But the good news is, as is mentioned elsewhere, a wrong belief like the rapture does not affect your salvation. It just may cause some to renounce God when they are not taken to heaven, as the world is struck by the Lord's fiery vengeance and wrath. You, at least will know what to do when that happens; Call upon the Name of the Lord and He will protect you.
    I look forward with great anticipation to meeting my forum friends in the holy Land. Zechariah 3:10
     
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  14. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    :amen:
    So do I brother. :)
     
  15. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    I think Holy Spirit would move me away from any false teaching. He indwells me and the Bible tells me that He will lead me into all truth. I trust Him. Maybe if more people acknowledge Him, then more people would be on the same page. But people like to lean on their own vain understanding. That is spiritual pride, which our Father hates.
     
  16. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Every "Born-again" believer is indwelled with the Holy Spirit upon coming to faith in Christ, based on John 3.

    What we "think" is not important. That includes me.

    If you take the teachings of men over that found in the Word, then you are off track.
    If you think all of the tribulation period is the "wrath of God" then that is what you have done.


    If you can get the pretrib rapture/Two Peoples of God doctrine to line up with the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, then by all means hold on to your doctrine.

    Otherwise, you need to rely on the Spirit more and men less.


     
  17. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    That is what I do. I know every Christian is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. My question is why is there so much division among Christians.
     
  18. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    BA I am not trying to be facetious here brother. The Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself.In these last days He will have a time bringing all of us with differing points of view to unity. Some He will drag kicking and screaming.
     
  19. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Because there has been a battle raging between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, since the Jerusalem council in Acts chapter 15.

    Many have ignored the Book of Galatians and the Book of Hebrews, which make it clear that the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete". (Hebrews 8:13)

    During most of the history of the Church the Judaisers have won the day.

    This battle has divided the Church into many denominations, against the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:10-17.

    Jer_31:31  "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

    Mat_26:28  For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

    Mar_14:24  And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

    Luk_22:20  Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

    1Co_11:25  In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

    2Co_3:6  who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

    Heb_8:8  Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

    Heb_8:13  In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

    Heb_9:15  And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

    Heb_12:24  to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.

    .
     
  20. Handmaid for Jesus

    Handmaid for Jesus You can't steal my joy Supporter

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    I do not mix the two covenants and I have studied both. I can tell the difference between law and grace. I Think you may be missing it though because you believe replacement theology.
     
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