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A greater expression of the remainder of Creation, than an exertion of Evolution?

Discussion in 'Creation & Theistic Evolution' started by Gottservant, Jun 13, 2019.

  1. Gottservant

    Gottservant God loves your words, may men love them also Supporter

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    Hi there,

    So yes, Jesus said "Gather up the fragments that remain, that none be lost" (paraphrase) - this applies to Evolution too: it's possible to have a greater expression of the remainder of Creation, than an exertion of the better of Evolution. This is because Evolution precipitates pressure against remaining the same, whereas Creation welcomes a diversion along the lines of that which has already come, but may not be expressed as completely new.

    You can have a greater Creation, with what's left, than you can have an Evolution of that which is still coming!

    The logic is that what was created was created with a design in mind, the liberal interpretation of which is able to utilize things like instinct and play, sharing and mastery, to bring about a cohesive interpretation of what already was, not merely assumptions of that which may yet come to pass. The basketballer who plays on the B team, may flourish in offence more than the position of offence on the A team - simply because the traits he shares with the rest of the team are more in tune with what they can do, not what they can imagine.

    The fundamental is compassion. With compassion, there is hope that an evolution that previously was not good enough, might find a creative alternative that brings that potential to life, simply because it is not demanding everything of that potential. If the other path had been taken and evolution had been expected, that potential may have been overworked and destroyed. Evolution is basically pride, it does not allow for compassion, because it has to be the best. Compassion does not have to be the best.

    There is mastery in this, then: because the one showing compassion, can be there for the one trying to evolve. Being there, the one showing compassion, can become a light to the one trying to evolve, until the one trying to evolve reaches a point of reflection, that his evolution can be seen in. The one showing compassion, does not need to change the evolution of the one trying to evolve - he has peace. This peace is for all.
     
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  2. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Creation with the One Creator of all things visible & invisible is diametrically OPPOSED to the theory of naturalistic evolution. There is no peace between the basic tenets of both.
     
  3. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    All of the physical evidence supports evolution though. As a Christian I would like the Bible to have an accurate description of nature but unfortunately it just doesn’t . It bothers some people more than others . The only reason that bothers me is that creationist complaint essays tend to garble the science, misquote people and misuse scientific terminology. If they had legitimate complaints the scientific community would take them seriously.
     
  4. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    Theo-Evo complaints garble the bible. For example the doctrine of original sin is left in the dark.
     
  5. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    oh well! Nature isn’t like the bible’s description. Fanciful descriptions of nature are harmful vs a tale in a book written in the Bronze Age . I’ll take accurate descriptions of nature any day.
     
  6. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    2 Pet 3:1ff This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets AND the commandment of the Lord & Savior through your apostles, knowing this FIRST OF ALL, that SCOFFERS WILL COME IN THE LAST DAYS WITH SCOFFING, following their own sinful desires.

    4They will say, “Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing AS THEY WERE SINCE THE BEGINNING OF CREATION.”

    5For they deliberately overlook this FACT, that the heavens existed long ago, & the earth was formed out of water & through water BY THE WORD OF GOD & that by means of these THE WORLD THAT THEN EXISTED was deluged with water & perished.

    7But by the SAME WORD the heavens AND earth that NOW EXIST are stored up FOR FIRE, being kept UNTIL the day of judgment & destruction of the ungodly.

    The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to REPENTANCE.

    10But the day of the Lord will come like a THIEF & then the heavens will pass away with a roar & the heavenly bodies will be burned up & dissolved & the earth & the works that are done ON IT will be burned up.

    11Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness & godliness, waiting for & hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire & dissolved, & the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn! But according to His promise we are waiting for new heavens & a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

    Luke 17:26-37 Jesus: "Just as it was in the days of Noah, so ALSO will it be in the days of the Son of Man: People were eating & drinking, marrying & being given in marriage, up UNTIL the day Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came & destroyed them all."

    28It was the same in the days of Lot: People were eating & drinking, buying & selling, planting & building. But on the day Lot left Sodom, fire & brimstone rained down from heaven & destroyed them all."

    30 "It will be JUST LIKE THAT on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day, let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve his possessions. Likewise, let no one in the field return for anything he has left behind.

    32Remember Lot’s wife! Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it. I tell you, on that night two people will be in one bed: One will be taken & the other left. Two women will be grinding grain together: One will be taken & the other left.”

    37“Where, Lord {are they taken}?” they asked. Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a CARCASS, there the VULTURES WILL GATHER.”
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  7. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    Insert bible verses here is not evidence that any mainstream science theories are erroneous. You’d have to go through every bit of data we have and show that this is not leading to the mainstream science conclusion. Using newspeak, outright lying, cherrypicking data, and mistaking what scientists say is not evidence that any theories are wrong . It is evidence that creationists don’t have s leg to stand on.
     
  8. Mathetes66

    Mathetes66 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Ignore all the prophets & the apostles & especially Jesus Christ Himself as to what really happened & is going to happen to this planet & universe to your own peril.

    2 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

    You have already shown your unbelief in the Bible account of creation & Jesus very teaching on creation, Adam & Eve, etc, He being the very One who created the heavens & the earth. He is an EYEWITNESS of what happened then, not you, me or any scientist in all of history. It is the very Words & revelation of God & you show in your faith statement above, calling scientists' description of nature as being accurate while the Bible is fanciful descriptions of nature & are actually harmful to people! You call the Bible account concerning creation from Genesis to Revelation a fanciful tale ('existing only in the imagination'), indicating it is inaccurate, not to be believed & to be rejected as harmful.

    I would remind you of one of these supposed fancy tales by Jesus:

    John 12:48 "There is a judge for the one who rejects me & does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day." May God have mercy upon you as well as me.

    This deliberate maligning of creationists is spoken in deliberate ignorance as many of the most famous scientists in the world were people who believed God created the heavens & the earth & put their trust in the truth of the Bible, who made many amazing discoveries about the universe & the earth.

    Sir James Young Simpson (1811-1907) the pioneer of anaesthetics. (From his own personal testimony, St Columba’s Free Church, Edinburgh, where he was an elder, reproduced by Sovereign Grace Union)

    "But again I looked & saw Jesus, my Substitute, scourged in my stead & dying on the cross for me. I looked & cried & was forgiven. And it seems to be my duty to tell you of that Saviour, to see if you will not also look & live: How simple it all becomes when the Holy Spirit opens the eyes!"

    Lord Joseph Lister (1827-1912), pioneer of antiseptics & modern surgery
    "I am a believer in the fundamental doctrines of Christianity."

    Joseph Lister’s design of a microscope lens which did not distort colors opened the way for the microscope to be used as a serious scientific tool. This contribution to science resulted in Joseph Lister’s being made a Fellow of the Royal Society—the prestigious British association of experimental scientists.

    In 1853, Lister went to Edinburgh, Scotland, to spend four weeks with Professor James Syme, who was considered to be the greatest teacher of surgery at that time. Lister soon decided to stay in Edinburgh as Syme’s assistant. Three years later, Lister married Syme’s daughter Agnes & joined her as a member of the Episcopal church. He remained a faithful member of this church for the remainder of his life.

    Even though Lister’s procedures were SCOFFED AT by some of his colleagues, who considered it a status symbol to be covered in blood from previous operations, his talent was becoming recognized. In 1860 he became Professor of Surgery at Glasgow. There, a friend lent him some research papers by the outstanding French chemist, Louis Pasteur. (Like Lister, Pasteur was a committed Christian.)

    Lister was eager to acknowledge Louis Pasteur’s invaluable contribution. In a letter to Pasteur in Feb, 1874, Lister gave him ‘thanks for having proved to me, by your brilliant researches, the truth of the germ theory. You furnished me with the principle on which alone the antiseptic system can be carried out.’

    Lister was neither angered nor discouraged by the controversy that raged about his work. Instead, ‘Lister went on his gentle, unconcerned way saving his patients & trying to cheer them while doing so’.

    Lister’s methods gradually gained acceptance. Doctors from Denmark & Germany were the first to implement Lister’s antiseptic principle & they met with stunning success. (For example, in Munich the death rate from infection after surgery dropped from 80% to almost zero.) By 1875, Lister was receiving international acclaim in Europe.

    The World Book Encyclopedia says that ‘Throughout his life, he remained a gentle, shy, unassuming man, firm in his purpose because he humbly believed himself to be directed by God.’

    Sir Francis Bacon (1561-1626) Lord Chancellor of England, is said to be the one who began the “scientific method,” based on experimentation & induction from data, rather than simply philosophical deduction like Aristotle used.

    Bacon was a devout Bible-believer, who wrote: “There are two books laid before us to study, to prevent our falling into error; first, the volume of the Scriptures, which reveal the will of God; then the volume of the Creatures [the created things of nature], which express His power.”

    Sir Ambrose Fleming (1849-1946), pioneer of electronics
    "There is abundant evidence that the Bible, though written by men, is not the product of the human mind. By countless multitudes it has always been revered as a communication to us from the Creator of the Universe."

    Sir William Thompson, Lord Kelvin (1824-1907) Formulator of the 1st & 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics & played a key role in laying the first transatlantic communication cable. (The Times, May 2, 1903, Lord Kelvin on Religion and Science, corrected by Lord Kelvin himself in The Life of William Thompson, Baron Kelvin of Largs, by S.P. Thompson)

    "Do not be afraid of being free thinkers. If you think strongly enough you will be forced by science to the belief in God, which is the foundation of all Religion."

    He came to the same position as his father: that the universe was a designed system that could be understood because God created the human mind in order, among other things, to understand the natural world as God designed it.

    Lord Kelvin was also a devout Christian who found a way of reconciling his science & his faith, but not without finding himself IN CONFLICT with his contemporaries including Darwin.

    This was a clash which has echoes with the modern debate between science & religion. He was also the first UK scientist to be elevated to the House of Lords & maintained that his life-long Christian faith supported & informed his scientific work. Kelvin also believed science must be treated with reverence, as he explained:

    "I have long felt that there was a general impression that the scientific world believes science has discovered ways of explaining all the facts of nature WITHOUT adopting any definite belief in a Creator. I have never doubted that impression was utterly GROUNDLESS.

    "The more thoroughly I conduct scientific research, the more I believe science EXCLUDES atheism. If you think strongly enough you will be forced by science to the belief in God, which is the foundation of all religion."

    Wernher Von Braun (1912-1977) pioneer of space rockets
    "An outlook… at the vast mysteries of the universe should only confirm our belief in the certainty of its Creator. [Scientific concepts] exist only in the minds of men. Behind these concepts lies the reality which is being revealed to us, but only by the grace of God."

    Von Braun laid the foundation for cell phones, satellite radio, the Internet, GPS, and Doppler radar. His later career reads like a history of the American space program & it was undergirded by a firm belief in the Creator God of the Bible.

    The Saturn V rocket which launched Armstrong & his fellow astronauts into space & on the moon was largely the work of outstanding rocket engineer Wernher von Braun.

    After converting to Christianity, Dr. von Braun became a strong proponent of the Christian faith & creationism. He wrote a lot about his Christian faith & spoke extensively on it. He said creationism was “a viable scientific theory for the origin of the universe, life & man.” Von Braun concluded that acknowledging the universe is designed, 'ultimately raises the question of a Designer…'

    "The scientific method does not allow us to exclude data which lead to the conclusion that the universe, life & man are based on design. To be forced to believe…that everything in the universe happened by chance—would violate the very objectivity of science itself."

    "Certainly there are those who argue that the universe evolved out of a random process, but what random process could produce the brain of a man or the system of the human eye?"

    Prov 20:12 "The hearing ear & the seeing eye, the LORD has made them both.

    "The more we learn about God’s creation, the more I am impressed with the orderliness & unerring perfection of the natural laws that govern it. In this perfection, man—the scientist—catches a glimpse of the Creator & His design for nature.”

    Carl Linnaeus (1707-1778), pioneer of classification & the 'father of taxonomy.' He was a botanist, biologist & the person who worked out the classification of plant & animal species.

    ‘Almighty Creator & Preserver of all things… praised be all Thou has created.
    ‘Let us… not set aside God’s works, but, guided by them, revere the Master!'

    His father, Nils, was a Swedish Lutheran pastor & liked to converse in Latin, so it is said that Carl learned Latin before he learned Swedish. Nils, an avid gardener, used to decorate baby Carl’s crib with blossoms & give him flowers to play with.

    When he was four, Nils began teaching him the Latin names of plants. This was no small memory task for Carl, e.g. the humble tomato was called Solanum caule inermi herbaceo, folis pinnatis incisis, racemis simplicibus!

    He made a thesis on pollination but had a way of describing it in a poetic or anthropomorphic unique way, acknowledging the Creator!

    Sample: “Love comes even to the plants. Males & females, even the hermaphrodites, hold their nuptials…The actual petals of a flower contribute nothing to generation, serving only as a bridal bed which the great Creator has so gloriously prepared…in order that the bridegroom & bride may celebrate their nuptials with the greater solemnity.” Praeludia Sponsaliorum Plantarum (‘Prelude to the betrothal of plants’)."

    In 1739, he was appointed Physician to the Swedish Admiralty, having obtained his degree in medicine. He also became the first President of the newly established Swedish Academy of Science.

    In 1741, Linnaeus was appointed Professor of Medicine at the University of Uppsala, but he exchanged places with another professor and so became responsible for botany and natural history instead. He called his best students his ‘apostles’ & sent them on journeys of exploration around the world.

    In 1735, the first edition of his Systema Naturae (The System of Nature) was published. It presented three kingdoms of nature: stones (or minerals), plants, & animals, with the latter two subdivided into classes, orders, genera, species, & varieties. The 10th edition, published in 1758, had animals assigned with BINOMIAL names & is considered the beginning of zoological nomenclature.

    "The end of the Earth’s creation is the glory of God, as seen from the works of Nature by man alone." Systema Naturae

    He wrote: “There are as many species as the Infinite Being produced diverse forms in the beginning.” Fundamenta Botanica

    In his lifetime, he was called ‘the second Adam’: Adam named the animals & Linnaeus renamed them in Latin.

    “Theologically, man is to be understood as the final purpose of the creation; placed on the globe as the masterpiece of the works of Omnipotence, contemplating the world by virtue of sapient reason, forming conclusions by means of his senses."

    "It is in His works that man recognizes the Almighty Creator, the all-knowing, immeasurable & eternal God, learning to live morally under His rule, convinced of the complete justice of His Nemesis.” Nemesis Divina, 1834. [Linnaeus Note: ‘Nemesis’ here means God’s inescapable retribution for wrongdoing.]

    Max Planck (1848-1947), pioneer of quantum physics & Nobel Prize in 1918
    He is universally recognized as the father of modern physics; he formulated one of the most important physical theories of the 20th century – Quantum Theory. He also contributed to the progress of the Theory of Relativity & the study of electromagnetic radiation. Planck is a founder of quantum mechanics.

    "Both religion & science need for their activities the belief in God & moreover God stands for the former IN THE BEGINNING & for the latter at the end of the whole thinking. For the former, God represents the basis, for the latter – the crown of any reasoning concerning the world-view.

    “All matter originates & exists only by virtue of a force which brings the particle of an atom to vibration & holds this most minute solar system of the atom together. We must assume behind this force the existence of a conscious & intelligent mind."

    “That God existed before there were human beings on Earth, that He holds the entire world, believers & non-believers, in His omnipotent hand for eternity & that He will remain enthroned on a level inaccessible to human comprehension long after the Earth & everything that is on it has gone to ruins; those who profess this faith & who, inspired by it, in veneration & complete confidence, feel secure from the dangers of life under protection of the Almighty, only those may number themselves among the truly religious.”

    Planck concluded his lecture Religion & Science (May 1937) with the words: “It is the steady, ongoing, never-slackening fight against scepticism & dogmatism, against unbelief & superstition, which religion & science wage together. The directing watchword in this struggle runs from the remotest past to the distant future: ‘On to God!’

    To the question of The Observer, “Do you think that consciousness can be explained in terms of matter?” Max Planck replied: “No, I regard consciousness as fundamental. I regard matter as derivative from consciousness. We cannot get behind consciousness. Everything that we talk about, everything that we regard as existing, postulates consciousness.”

    “Farsighted theologians are now working to mine the eternal metal from the teachings of Jesus & to forge it for all time.”

    There is life after death..."another world, exalted above ours, where we can & will take refuge at any time.”

    During World War II, in Feb, 1945, Planck’s son Erwin was executed by the Nazis for participation in an unsuccessful attempt to assassinate Adolf Hitler. On 3/14/1945 Planck wrote in a letter to his friend Anton Kippenberg:

    “If there is consolation anywhere it is in the Eternal & I consider it a grace of Heaven that belief in the Eternal has been rooted deeply in me since childhood.
    God protect & strengthen you for everything that still may come before this insanity in which we are forced to live reaches its end.”

    I can go on & on concerning these testimonies of scientists who believed in creationism & the Creator God. But these are sufficient to more accurately correct your misleading statement quoted above.
     
  9. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    . A scientist’s actual work is based on the processes of scientific investigation. His or her religious beliefs have nothing to do with science. Creationists like you never figure that out. Science doesn’t concern itself with religious beliefs. However if natural phenomena demonstrates that those religious beliefs aren’t true , is that the fault of the scientists? You don’t get to choose your facts. There is no fake news in science. Christians should be firmly sticking to the truth and the truth is that the mainstream science explanations of nature are accurate. Evolution, the old earth, the old universe, the Big Bang ,and common descent, are all accurate descriptions of nature. Creationist descriptions are not accurate at all to the point that they’re actually fanciful
     
  10. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    -57 said "Theo-Evo complaints garble the bible. For example the doctrine of original sin is left in the dark."

    You replied back with....
    And completely bruched off original sin.
    With all due respect...main stream science says when you die...you don't come back to life on day 3.
    Modern science says the axe didn't float. 2 Kings 6:6?

    So, not only do you have to do away with original sin..the fall in the garden..you have to explain away biblical miracles. why? Because someone convinved you we use to be simple primates swinging in the trees.
     
  11. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    Where has science ever determined christian beliefs are not true?
     
  12. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    Some Christians believe the earth is 6000 years old . That is not true. Some believe Noah’s Flood was an actual occurrence. That isn’t true either. Basic high school geology will refute both of these beliefs. Science does refute some people’s beliefs and I certainly can add several others that people believe and that are not true
     
  13. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    Let me ask you again....Where has science ever determined christian beliefs are not true?

    All you did was make a claim about a basic high school geology. Will you back it up?
     
  14. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    Science has determined that some bible stories are just that , stories . Some believers refuse to acknowledge that these aren’t factual histories and shouldn’t be treated as such. In the 1500s they had an excuse for believing this but not now. It’s deliberate willful ignorance at this point in the 21st century
     
  15. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    When one changes the Bible with what they believe to be "true science" ....that is filters their bible through evolutionism, losing the biblical concept of the fall and original sin..that is not explaining what happened, then that change from sound doctrine to no doctrine should make you worry.

    It should make you ask "why do we need Jesus" and "what happened to mankind that we do need Jesus." Your Theo-Evo religion may answer why do we need Jesus but can't answer what happened.
     
  16. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    you have to ask yourself wwjd. Would he continue to believe in a baseless fantasy or would he accept the truth. It’s called being honest with yourself.
     
  17. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    Are you going to explain why mankind sins? The fall?
     
  18. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    nope , I understand biology not theology! Haven’t a clue and honestly don’t care. The Evidence says that we humans evolved a long time ago from a chordate that probably looked like a juvenile sea squirt and I’m fine with that. If it messes up a poetic description of how life came to be ,well ,I don’t consider that to be my problem as I’ve never believed the poetic description was a history in the first place.
     
  19. -57

    -57 Well-Known Member

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    "I understand biology not theology!" I know. Perhaps you ought to wean yourself off of milk and onto meat.

    It would also appear your Jesus never rose from the grave...as your biology tells us that is impossible. People don't come back to life on day 3.
     
  20. Brightmoon

    Brightmoon Apes and humans are all in family Hominidae.

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    I have no intention of “weaning myself“ off of accurate knowledge about nature to believe nonsensical ideas that could potentially cause a lot of harm to agricultural practices and medical research .
     
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