A Friend called The Anglican Church "The Queer Church"

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Lilac

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How do you all respond to such an awful ignorant statement?

A friend referred to the Episcopal Church in this way lately. I'm very upset. But how does one defend the faith when faced with a comment such as this?

There is a hint of truth to it, when this denomination freely ordains homosexual priests!

Some helpful comments most appreciated!
 

Polycarp1

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First, if it were a casual acquaintance, I wouldn't dignify the remark with a response, other than a frosty glare. That business about not feeding trolls, and all that! :sigh:

But if it seemed to be a legitimate question from a personal friend who has gained an impression about Episcopalianism, then I'd need to respond, and much of the following is what I'd say:

Over the years, the Episcopal Church has attracted gay people, for a number of reasons. One is its willingness to stand for social justice and tackle tough issues head-on. Another, which invokes a stereotype but has a little validity behind it, is that many homosexuals are attracted to the ceremony and panoply of services in many of our churches. A third is that, by and large, we are among the most welcoming and affirming of denominations towards homosexuals.

We tend to focus very heavily on God's unconditional love and compassion, and very seldom on issues of sin. Repentance for us seldom means turning away from sin so much as it means turning toward new life in a commitment to Christ. We tend to look on sin not as "sins" -- discrete acts that are prohibited by God's law -- as "sin" -- the state of estrangement from Him and inability to perfectly do His will. We cannot be perfect as He is perfect; we cannot at all times and in all conditions perfectly love Him with all our heart and soul and mind; we find it hard to love any one neighbor as ourself, much less the whole gamut of other people. The General Confession at the Eucharist sums up our understanding of sin and repentance well:

Most merciful God,
we confess that we have sinned against you
in thought, word, and deed,
by what we have done,
and by what we have left undone.
We have not loved you with our whole heart;
we have not loved our neighbors as ourselves.
We are truly sorry and we humbly repent.
For the sake of your Son Jesus Christ,
have mercy on us and forgive us;
that we may delight in your will,
and walk in your ways,
to the glory of your Name. Amen.
We generally welcome and affirm gay people who choose to join us, and do not get into a detailed analysis of their sinfulness. Rather, like any Christian, they are asked to renounce sin, repent, and turn to Christ for their salvation, in general terms that does not focus on their sexuality.

Many Episcopalians have become convinced that committed unions of gay people are not the sins against which Scripture speaks. Others are not so sure of this, though they also do believe in careful Biblical exegesis with attention to the time and culture of the human writer taken into account. But as a general rule, whether or not we see their sexuality as sinful, we leave it to the Holy Spirit to work within them to sanctify them and draw them to repent of what He sees needs repenting of and at the time and circumstances He believes them ready for it. Almost like Baptists, there is a strong sense among Episcopalians of individual responsibility to get right with God, with a concomitant attitude that others are in general not to interfere except on a purely friendly basis.

In any case, we see homosexuality as no bar to membership and even leadership, as the highly controversial consecration of Bp. Gene Robinson amply demonstrates. And, because rightly or wrongly many (most) gay people see the stances of other churches as condemning them as individuals, not merely their sins but them as people, there's been a strong tendency among gay people who have found Christ to affiliate with our church.

So in a real sense it's not an insult but a compliment. We've provided a church home for people who feel ostracized elsewhere. And, after all, Paul points out that we are "called to be a peculiar people." ;)
 
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Lilac

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Polycarp1 said:
We tend to focus very heavily on God's unconditional love and compassion, and very seldom on issues of sin. Repentance for us seldom means turning away from sin so much as it means turning toward new life in a commitment to Christ. We tend to look on sin not as "sins" -- discrete acts that are prohibited by God's law -- as "sin" -- the state of estrangement from Him and inability to perfectly do His will.

We generally welcome and affirm gay people who choose to join us, and do not get into a detailed analysis of their sinfulness. Rather, like any Christian, they are asked to renounce sin, repent, and turn to Christ for their salvation, in general terms that does not focus on their sexuality.

Many Episcopalians have become convinced that committed unions of gay people are not the sins against which Scripture speaks.
;)
:wave: Hi Brother Polycarp:

Thank for your this detailed analysis.

Tell me something, as you quote above, why does "repentence for Episcopalians seldom mean turning away from sin".....? Isn't this what all believers should be striving to do when living a life fully in Christ? For the old has passed away and we are a new creature--how profound!! I really don't understand this view that this Church takes. Also, I really don't see how Episcopalians can justify their "unions" as not sins against which Scripture speaks. It is so stated in Scripture. Period. I don't understand how this can be rationalized away, nor of course many other sins either like adultery, fornication, shop lifting, whatever.

I have several gay friends whom I love dearly. None of them are Christians however, but I would hope if they were to become "saved" and made a new creature in Christ, they would want to turn away from their sin, and be and live fully in Christ. For only HE gives us this ability to be washed clean.

I have noticed some (not many) gay couples at various Episcopal Churches I've attended, and yes, I do leave their lives to the work of the Holy Spirit. I don't feel it is our duty to judge them, but I also wonder how this Church could ever rationalize this behavior to the point it has done, like you have quoted above. This leaves me very miffed.

I still don't feel it is right to call the Episcopal Church, "the queer church". That's as silly as calling the Presbyterian Church the Coveters Church, or the Baptist Church, the Adulterors' Church. Ridiculous!!!! How can anyone make that generalization! Most Christians do honestly strive to live a Godly life and follow Scripture.

Oh well----Ce La Vie



God Bless~~~:) :pink:

Your friend in Christ,
 
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Polycarp1

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Most Christians see the problem with homosexuality pretty much in the terms you specify. What I meant by "not so much a turning from sin" was in the emphasis one places on aspects of the Christian walk -- the proverbial and stereotype "hellfire-and-brimstone" preacher focuses on sin and repentance from it; the typical Anglican speaking of repentance is talking of what walking with Christ means in terms of what positive things he or she must do, rather than in what sins he or she must renounce. It's not so much a disagreement as a focus on different parts of the same message.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Lilac - it's a bit of a tangent, but there certainly are various ways to interpret the Bible's (very few) references to homosexual activity and to question its applicability to homosexual relationships as they exist today. You do know that there is no word in any of the Biblical languages that exactly correlates to "homosexual", or, for that matter "fornication"?

Other than that, [aol]What Polycarp Said[/aol]

On a more general note, I'd be inclined to reply to the person who called us "The Queer Church" that the Pharisees might similarly have called Jesus' disciples the "Tax Collectors' Cult"... ;)
 
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Polycarp1

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Hey, not because anyone's been breaking it, but as a preventative measure to avoid problems, let me remind everyone of Rule #4 of Christian Forums:

[nooff]

Note particularly the long parenthetical about 2/3 of the way through the rule. I think it's quite possible to discuss the Episcopal/Anglican stance towards homosexuality without taking an "advocacy" step that breaks this rule -- but I want people to be aware of our need to abide by this rule on the board we joined by consenting to abide by the rules of. No problems, no concerns with any post to date, just "an ounce of prevention" -- OK?
 
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Colabomb

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I would also tell him/her that there are groups such as the APA, the AMIA and the REC that condemn homosexuality as the sin that it is.

Also, there are many Anglicans (such as myself) within, and without ECUSA that stand against Homosexuality, and are disgusted and saddened by the "ordination" of Gene Robinson.

Saying Anglicanism supports homosexuality is inaccurate.
 
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artybloke

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Also, there are many Anglicans (such as myself) within, and without ECUSA that stand against Homosexuality, and are disgusted and saddened by the "ordination" of Gene Robinson.

And there are plenty more of us that praise Godn that the Spirit of God has been granted to people like Gene Robinson, Hallelujah!
 
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chalice_thunder

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Part of the Rector's Sermon on Pentecost is evident in this discussion. The Anglican church can hold the two extremes in a holy tension. Why did the chicken cross the road? To get to the ditch on the other side.

Rather than duck into the relative safety of the ditch on either side of the road, we Anglicans boldy walk Via Media - down the center of it. Not taking a stand one way or the other doesn't necessarily mean wishy-washy. Walking the center of the road is decidedly NOT a safe place to be, but often is where God is to be found.
 
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Icystwolf

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Polycarp1 said:
Most Christians see the problem with homosexuality pretty much in the terms you specify. What I meant by "not so much a turning from sin" was in the emphasis one places on aspects of the Christian walk -- the proverbial and stereotype "hellfire-and-brimstone" preacher focuses on sin and repentance from it;
the "hellfire-and-brimstone" technique of scaring people to go to church...I disagree with...or agree with you statement.

But isn't the point of church the ability to establish a relationship with each other and with God?
So in that sense, to establish a relationship with God, we must repent from our disobedience to God, that is ...sin?



the typical Anglican speaking of repentance is talking of what walking with Christ means in terms of what positive things he or she must do, rather than in what sins he or she must renounce.
I'm not too sure how other Anglicans see things, but isn't that the catholic and charismatic way of seeing things, where you must do something good?

I've thought that Anglicans renounce their sinful lives, yet pick up new lives to walk in Christ....

By the way, I've been Christian for a while, but only recently became Anglican.

It's not so much a disagreement as a focus on different parts of the same message.
 
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julian the apostate

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i am married with children , but generally attend mass alone
anyway i am middle aged, thin, well kept etc and something disturbing has been happening

several times lately someone has come up to me after mass and said the following:

"jesus loves you and has a wonderful man for your life"

i know they are well meaning however i feel angry and am afraid i may commit a sin

i would feel so much better if you all would join me in the following prayer:

dear god please stay julian's hand when he is offended by his co-religionists and remind him to leave the smoteing to the professionals
 
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Colabomb

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Icystwolf said:
the "hellfire-and-brimstone" technique of scaring people to go to church...I disagree with...or agree with you statement.

But isn't the point of church the ability to establish a relationship with each other and with God?
So in that sense, to establish a relationship with God, we must repent from our disobedience to God, that is ...sin?




I'm not too sure how other Anglicans see things, but isn't that the catholic and charismatic way of seeing things, where you must do something good?

I've thought that Anglicans renounce their sinful lives, yet pick up new lives to walk in Christ....

By the way, I've been Christian for a while, but only recently became Anglican.
I don't quite understand what Polycarp is saying really, but as an Anglican I will say that I believe in a Repentence involving Turning away from sin. (BTW Polycarp, as I do not understand you, I am not saying I agree or disagree with your statement.)

Sin is disgusting, and it separates man from God.

I believe in literal Sin, I believe in literal Repentence.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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It's a question of emphasis.

I see repentance not so much in terms of deciding not to do X, Y and Z anymore, but rather taking on behaviours A, B and C.

It is perhaps why Anglicanism is not marked by legalistic prohibitions on drinking, dancing, playing cards or going to the cinema, but rather by exhortations to clothe the naked, feed the poor and visit the prisoner.
 
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pmcleanj

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Colabomb said:
I don't quite understand what Polycarp is saying really, but as an Anglican I will say that I believe in a Repentence involving Turning away from sin.
To repent is to turn around. Since God is infinately removed from sin, and we inhabit the middle-ground, then to turn one's face to God is to turn one's back on sin. It is the same thing.

The difference is, on where you pay attention. One can, in one's evangelical exhortations, emphasise the vileness of what people are called to reject. Or one can emphasise what they are called to adopt. Anglicans do renounce "Sin, the world, and the devil". It is the first of the Baptismal promises. We also turn to Christ, to faith in Him and His will for our lives. Those are the second and third Baptismal promises.

In positive parenting, the parent emphasises what she wants her children to do ("walk in the parlour, Billy") rather than what she wants her children not to do ("Don't run in the parlour, Billy"). Describing the desired performance creates and reinforces mental images of good behaviour. Describing the undesired performance creates and reinforces mental images of bad behaviour -- which we then expect the child to reject. Both instructions have the same meaning, but negative instructions are less effective; controlled studies of paedagogy have demonstrated this.

Anglicans for the most part don't notice the difference in focus. We go to church, we hear the message of repentance, we do our bit as best we are able. But when we attend other churches the contrast springs out. When I began regularly attending a Lutheran church (ELCIC, the liberal ones, not one of the more fundamentalist synods) I was shocked by how much time and effort they expended on the subject of sin. I felt uncomfortable letting my children listen to their children's sermons, where the emphasis seemed almost prurient. After five years of that shifted emphasis, I'm becoming inured, but it still sometimes shocks me.

Repenting is good. We need to keep checking ourselves to make sure we're facing in the right direction; keep adjusting the steering as we veer off-course. But we shouldn't spend too much time staring backward over our shoulder -- that's all I understand Polycarp to have been saying.
 
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