A few thoughts

[mnphysicist]

A few thoughts...

First, I, as well as other sr staff have spent a lot of time lurking your forum, in fact dating back to close to the days when your forum was created. Although I doubt many of us have posted, we are very much aware of what has happened, as well as the ongoing issues. There have been some absolutely amazing discussions on CC, and all of us are convinced it can provide a huge amount of value here on CF. Sadly, CC has also hurt many folks, on all sides... that has to stop. We are putting things in place to help that happen.

I also wanted to present a bit of an 10000 ft view. When the changes were announced in July, things became a lot looser as far as post content restrictions and such as we all know. CF became more like the wild west. Now, when CC was established, a mindset of freeforalls was already in place, and reinforced by other areas of the site. In some ways, a more open approach to discussion can be a good thing, in others, it can be hurtful. The intent of the wiki's was to expand and contract over time, such that a happy medium developed by the members would result. Ie, not too much censorship, not too much flaming. Where the wiki process stopped, CF was much like the wild west supersized I'm afraid... so the changes which will be happening, may seem extreme, where as back in June, might have seemed a minor anomaly.

Next, the discussion to close it down or not has been ongoing for a bit. Its not going to close tonight, we are going to try a few things, and see if it improves and then re-evaluate. I only bring this up, such that members are aware, this is a serious situation... and to deal with any rumors that CC could disappear overnight.

The game plan

The infraction system is going live. We have to train staff, and we have some minor software adjustments, but it will be up in the very near future.

CF is no longer operating in a democratic fashion. It is much more authoritarian in nature. This change will happen quickly. We hope to have procedures, processes, and staffing issues changed over within the next 4 days. The chain of command will be much more visible, and more critical than it was in the past. This doesn't mean that members input is not important, or that it will be ignored, but that oversight and responsibility is shifting.

Additional staff oversight will occur as part of this as well.

The above combination will make a difference. It won't be easy, neither on staff, nor on members, but time and time again, such a process has shown to work across a wide number of forums on CF. The intent is not to squelch discussion, but to provide a safer environment for our members.

In Christ
Ron

 

[MrJim]

Are any of the staff now on Lee's payroll?

 

[Nadiine]

I have posted my overview of what I believe happened in this forum as it went thru a "split".
http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40381130&postcount=8

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40386486&postcount=12

I also believe that CC isn't "huring people" anymore than the unruly Theology / GA sections are hurting many people as I've read continual complaints from regular [Christian] participants in them.

Frankly, I've never seen so many lurk in someone's section before. It turns more into a feeding frenzy when they see a little blood in the water (no doubt that's what some may have been coming to see?) - if people spent more time involved in their own sections and promoting the love and peace they claim they desire here, then that's what they should be doing elsewhere rather than trying to fan the embers.
Every time CC has tried to get back to normal, new people would pop their heads in to drop one more bomb & start things up again.

We also had no control over the recent barrage of 'spite reporting' that went on and was overtaxing the moderators.
That was done by people on purpose & we had no control over that - they weren't all violations either.

This forum went through a transition that was unforseen when it was created - dealing with moderate to possibly liberal worldviews in social and political arenas that clashed with others in the forum who are conservative in all 3.
In any "split", there are casualties - AND THESE HAVE BEEN ON BOTH SIDES. Do not ignore the hurt that has been inflicted on some of us thru this.
To not believe that 'hurt' wasn't done to us by others would be to appear biased and partial.

This didn't seem to be as huge an issue until the recent issue questioning Jim47. It was then that the 'change' was felt & I believe that's where the real anger at CC seems to be coming from right now imo. The change was immediate and obvious.
Putting this section under a dictatorship may or may not be the answer. If it turns into an unfair tyranny then we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Lastly, and importantly, it is one thing to impliment some TEMPORARY changes to try to solve a problem, it's another to continue them permanantly.
An analogy would be stitches on a deep wound.
Those stitches are only needed temporarily to seal the cut back up - these heavy handed changes should not be a PERMANENT installment over this section and should be LIFTED in a short amount of time if and until this section is ever allowed to get back to normal.

I say this mainly for the MANY members here who are either fairly new, or haven't been posting much in the forum.
(now lets define normal)...
In no way should CC be permanently branded/labeled & treated like outcasts as if we're some lepper colony in the congregational section. This would be wrong and should not be tolerated past a few months time.

I'm not here -to cause trouble-, I am here as a Christian to engage in fellowship, debate/discussion, fun & friendship. I have no will to want to cause problems and I think that goes for everyone in CC as to their motive.
We want freedom to be CONSERVATIVE CHRISTIANS without suppression and attack supposedly on our own home turf.
I don't think that's asking for too much and that is all we want (like anyone else wants in their congregations).

thank you.

 

[Nadiine]

PS: I kindly ask all my fellow CC members here not to react hostily and blow gaskets on this thread & turn it into another nitemare -- to only solidify the current judgments staff holds about us already.

We're here to just be a normal forum and we can be a normal forum & enjoy it here within the guidelines together. We don't know what this is going to involve yet, but if we act like monster's here, I can only assume the guidelines won't be any less lenient or constricting

All I demand is that the "AUTHORITARIAN" implimentation be temporary only - and for a limited time only.
There is no reason to penalize every member of CC permanently or long term becuz of an inner split when the split itself may actually be what heals & mends CC from the previous strife it was encountering.

That may have actually been the change that was needed for BOTH parties; both who stayed and moved. I think both groups will be happier over time and possibly merge back together in fellowship.

*[if we have serious issues & need regrouping for a gameplan, then lets take it to PM's or a private message board - not here]

 

[drstevej]

Thanks for the communication, Ron.

 

[Father Rick]

All I demand is that the "AUTHORITARIAN" implimentation be temporary only - and for a limited time only.

LeeD has made it clear that the entire site is going back to a more "authoritarian" style of management... and that this will be on a permanent basis.Membership no longer has a say in the appointment of staff. Rather, they serve at Lee's discretion.The new infraction/warning system allows staff a fair amount of lee-way in determining if a post should be a warning, or an infraction.... but sitewide bans of up to two weeks can also be issued at any time at staff's discretion. As to infractions... you get four, you get an automatic 1 month ban. The second time, it is an automatic permanent ban.These are not just being implemented here in CCC, but site wide. Yes, it's true that congregational forums will have a small amount of say in rules (as in, limits on who may debate) but that's about it. As someone who's been here (and on staff) for years, this is going back, not just pre 7/7/7 but even before Erwin's previous changes before that. Back to much the way it was when I first joined CF.And I, for one, can attest that CF was a much nicer place to 'hang out' back then.

 

[MrJim]

are there fsm's or can any mod on a "whim" ban someone?

but sitewide bans of up to two weeks can also be issued at any time at staff's discretion

 

[Nadiine]

LeeD has made it clear that the entire site is going back to a more "authoritarian" style of management...

I understand that. I'm not going to go back & forth on all this to turn the thread into debate & escalate into WW5 like so many others have.

All I'm saying is, if CC is going to have implimentations over it that no other congregation is going to have put in place over it, then whatever THAT specific different method is needs to be TEMPORARY, not permanent becuz it's then a permanent penalization upon many innocent forum members and it's unecessary once the area gets back to normal (which I was already seeing start to happen yesterday - if people would only stop dragging NEW bombs in every day).

Yes, Lee's changes will change alot and I'm looking forward to them becuz this current system is broken! I'm speaking only of additional measures of a type of 'dictatorship' that only THIS section will be put under.

As my other posts have specified, fairness and equality to ALL members must be a mainstay of this site - across the board. And I haven't been seeing that lately on several different levels. It isn't too much to ask for I don't think.

And with all due respect, I do not want to turn this into a discussion, I think I've made my points clear and further debate won't change them.

 

[Time2BCounted]

mnphysicist
I am still on my first cup of coffee lol, so excuse me if i ask somethng i missed.

I have 3 questions

1) Is every other forum now under the guidelines we are, or are there ways we are now a special case?

2) Will CC members be ruled in violation for stating a conservative opinion in their own home forum as has recently been the case against several of our members?

3) What can we do if we still have members that we believe are here for ill will? How do we rid the forum of them to make it a more peaceful place?


I do hope we can bring good things to pass here and i feel if the leadership is right we WILL. But we can only be as good as our leadership. After much thought, i cannot stay in a forum that bans the opinion of its members and then puts them up for target practice from the outside. Other forums that are compatable dont allow this sort of thing from what i see. Or are you aware that this is a problem?

 

[Jim47]

are there fsm's or can any mod on a "whim" ban someone?

MUch like staff serves at the pleasure of Lee, forum moderators serve under the direction of the admins for that forum. We may make some changes in moving moderators or asking them if they want to move, or maybe take on additional forums. All of this is in the best interest of the members and to have a peaceful enviroment.

 

[Nadiine]

This OP is for CC MEMBERS as I read it. It doesn't involve non CC members, and unless I'm very wrong about that, I am formally requesting here that NON CC MEMBERS not come in to inject their opinions or 'corrections' about CC members & what they think is the problem here... which is counterproductive.
And it may be baiting or luring people to argue and causing further angers that don't need to be kindled.

I wouldn't dream of going into another forum that I wasn't a member of (or that I WAS a member of) to inject myself into a staff issue btwn them & that concerns them directly.

thank you

 

[Jim47]

mnphysicist
I am still on my first cup of coffee lol, so excuse me if i ask somethng i missed.

I have 3 questions

1) Is every other forum now under the guidelines we are, or are there ways we are now a special case?

2) Will CC members be ruled in violation for stating a conservative opinion in their own home forum as has recently been the case against several of our members?

3) What can we do if we still have members that we believe are here for ill will? How do we rid the forum of them to make it a more peaceful place?


I do hope we can bring good things to pass here and i feel if the leadership is right we WILL. But we can only be as good as our leadership. After much thought, i cannot stay in a forum that bans the opinion of its members and then puts them up for target practice from the outside. Other forums that are compatable dont allow this sort of thing from what i see. Or are you aware that this is a problem?

Alll forums will run under the same site wide rules, and as stated above each congregation may have some guidlines as to who can debate.


There is nothing wrong with offering a conservative opinion, that is the nature and focus of this forum, but bad mouthing other members and visitors just because they do not hold to your beliefs will not be accepted.

Likewise if you have people who are causing trouble, then report them, or even better yet, try writting a PM. You would be surprised how many of thse problems can be solved if one is willing to put down his defences and actually get to know someone. I have gotten to know many people who were reported and became their friends just because I dared to write them to talk about things, and similarly I have had many people write me seeking answers and friendship.

The whole thing is that we all need to become less defensive and comepletly out away offensiveness. Once those walls have been broken down we can actually see the other parties concerns and have a better understanding.

Just as Jesus, said love your brother. And who is our brother? Isn't it everyone?

So even if you may not come to an agreement on something, you can still show your brother Godly love and respect.

 

[nyj]

Once those walls have been broken down we can actually see the other parties concerns and have a better understanding.

Then do away with the Conservative, Liberal and Moderator fora. The "walls" have been up for awhile (WWMC was the first of these fora to exist) and they were there to allow people to express their ideas without people coming in with different ideas and disrupting their discussions. From my vantage point, that was never allowed for CC with any sort of consistency. Which, in turn, led to a bunker mentality for the CC members. And I can't blame them for that.

This forum, should be about allowing CC members to talk about conservative ideas. Not to get reported for those ideas because others find them offensive, and not to have to defend them at every turn by people who come in and want to "show a different side to the issue", which just so happens to be one that is counter to conservative beliefs.

Going on what you've said, and knowing why this forum was originally requested ... I get the impression your "ideal" for this forum does not fit with the original intent of this forum ... or any of the other congregational fora for that fact. I would contend that it's not fair, nor proper, to hold CC to this different ideal.

 

[Time2BCounted]

Alll forums will run under the same site wide rules, and as stated above each congregation may have some guidlines as to who can debate.


There is nothing wrong with offering a conservative opinion, that is the nature and focus of this forum, but bad mouthing other members and visitors just because they do not hold to your beliefs will not be accepted.

Jim if you are saying its going to be run the same as it has, and that we have the right to express opinion as long as it doesn debase an individual i disagree and i have several report threads i can refer you to where members ARE restricted in a simple conservative opinion with no personal flames at all. How can we be guaranteed to be able to voice a conservative opinion with no fear of reprisal? Canm we include this in our forum outline designing it to protect the members?

Likewise if you have people who are causing trouble, then report them, or even better yet, try writting a PM. You would be surprised how many of thse problems can be solved if one is willing to put down his defences and actually get to know someone. I have gotten to know many people who were reported and became their friends just because I dared to write them to talk about things, and similarly I have had many people write me seeking answers and friendship.

.

I frankly doubt a pm will move this person along. Lets be real, we dont live in a fantasy world my friend, this is the real world. Can it be that part of the problem is that staff is living in one and forcing members to comply without making any effort to truly help this forum and protect its members? What safeguards can we put into effect to eliminate from our rolls those who join for reasons other than likeminded fellowship? If these 2 things arent addressed CC cannot get better imo, and will be reduced to .....

 

[drstevej]

Then do away with the Conservative, Liberal and Moderator fora. The "walls" have been up for awhile (WWMC was the first of these fora to exist) and they were there to allow people to express their ideas without people coming in with different ideas and disrupting their discussions. From my vantage point, that was never allowed for CC with any sort of consistency. Which, in turn, led to a bunker mentality for the CC members. And I can't blame them for that.

This forum, should be about allowing CC members to talk about conservative ideas. Not to get reported for those ideas because others find them offensive, and not to have to defend them at every turn by people who come in and want to "show a different side to the issue", which just so happens to be one that is counter to conservative beliefs.

Going on what you've said, and knowing why this forum was originally requested ... I get the impression your "ideal" for this forum does not fit with the original intent of this forum ... or any of the other congregational fora for that fact. I would contend that it's not fair, nor proper, to hold CC to this different ideal.

well said.

 

[Jim47]

Then do away with the Conservative, Liberal and Moderator fora. The "walls" have been up for awhile (WWMC was the first of these fora to exist) and they were there to allow people to express their ideas without people coming in with different ideas and disrupting their discussions. From my vantage point, that was never allowed for CC with any sort of consistency. Which, in turn, led to a bunker mentality for the CC members. And I can't blame them for that.

This forum, should be about allowing CC members to talk about conservative ideas. Not to get reported for those ideas because others find them offensive, and not to have to defend them at every turn by people who come in and want to "show a different side to the issue", which just so happens to be one that is counter to conservative beliefs.

Going on what you've said, and knowing why this forum was originally requested ... I get the impression your "ideal" for this forum does not fit with the original intent of this forum ... or any of the other congregational fora for that fact. I would contend that it's not fair, nor proper, to hold CC to this different ideal.

No one has told you that this forum couldn't discuss conservative issues. Why would anyone tell you that? That is the whole purpose of this from from what I understand, but

we can all learn to discuss hings without being offensive and defensive can we not? Or is this absoultely necessary because of some feeling of insecurity?

You see where I come from and my point of view, our words carry a lot more emphisis if we leave the drama and emotion and threats out of them.

Your forum will still have adequate protection from attacks, but I can't outline that all yet as the guidelines are still in the works.

 

[JimfromOhio]

In my forum's blog, I have posted about this issue. Around the forum, most of us were functioning in the flesh because God doesn't produce fear, intimidation, timidity. Reading Timothy tells me that Timothy got tired of taking all the flack and the abuse. He was basically arguing with the philosophers and the religionists and the God haters. Timothy was becoming defensive and fighting, argumentative.

2 Timothy 2:22-26

22Flee the evil desires of youth, and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. 25Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, 26and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

Paul wrote:

24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful.

We just need to avoid discussing vain issues and focus on our beliefs and be diligent sharing our beliefs without any concern of others who will disagree with you. Our normal reaction is to be defensive when we're provoked while we have to remember that most important to us is who we are that we are to defend God and our beliefs.

Many times I come across people's beliefs that I really disagree with, I just say my thoughts and then leave them to God who does the convicting. Remember whene Jesus hung on the cross bearing the sin of mankind, people were spitting at Him and mocking Him. Yet He said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do" (Luke 23:34) Jesus was characterized by humility, which produces meekness and patience.

If the world could see a clear picture of Jesus Christ through us Christian who are united in faith while divided by doctrines be humble, meek, and patient, then whatever we share our beliefs, God will handle the convictions. I have learned that it is not my role to "convict" anyone here but to share my beliefs without shame.

The BEST Evangelist and Teacher is the Holy Spirit through Jesus Christ and as we talk (post), the Holy Spirit will work in each person's heart to be convicted.

We must remember that we share while the Holy Spirit does the REAL work.

One of the main reason I left this CC is that we were doing were NOT biblical but rather as we were behaving conservatives in the flesh rather than spiritually.

I am sad that this has come to this point. Being "territorial" is not what God intended but rather to share our beliefs with long-suffering.

 

[nyj]

No one has told you that this forum couldn't discuss conservative issues. Why would anyone tell you that? That is the whole purpose of this from from what I understand, but

Usually, when you throw a "but" into a sentence, it negates everything you've previously said.

we can all learn to discuss hings without being offensive and defensive can we not?

People who do not hold to conservative ideas, are going to find some of those ideals offensive regardless of how I say it. If I say I believe homosexuality is an abomination before God ... a homosexual may get offended ... and report it. Will such a comment get deleted/actioned? How else am I supposed to say it? As for the defensiveness, that came after what I would contend was inconsistent moderation.

Or is this absoultely necessary because of some feeling of insecurity?

Should I be offended at this comment? How are you using the word here? Obviously some people felt that they were walking on eggshells here, because talking about their conservative beliefs led to constant scrutiny. No one likes living in a fishbowl. For my part, 99.99% of my time is spent out of fora that I don't adhere to. I rarely, if ever, make posts in those fora and almost never report in them either. One would simply wish that those who do not feel as I do ... would behave in similar fashion. If they did so, I'd bet 99.99% of our problems would cease to exist.

 

[Jim47]

[/b]

Jim if you are saying its going to be run the same as it has, and that we have the right to express opinion as long as it doesn debase an individual i disagree and i have several report threads i can refer you to where members ARE restricted in a simple conservative opinion with no personal flames at all.

This is the whole point right here Time, if you can so as I underlines above. I know this happens some time, but a few people seem to have only the goal to debase others. Why is that? What purpose does it serve? Why do members always feel they have to be so offensive?

I frankly doubt a pm will move this person along. Lets be real, we dont live in a fantasy world my friend, this is the real world. Can it be that part of the problem is that staff is living in one and forcing members to comply without making any effort to truly help this forum and protect its members? What safeguards can we put into effect to eliminate from our rolls those who join for reasons other than likeminded fellowship? If these 2 things arent addressed CC cannot get better imo, and will be reduced to .....

Lets use you and I as an example. Have I not reached out to you via PM and called you a friend and brother? And I know you pride yourself in being a strong Christian, so what was Jesus instruction to us, was it not to love one another, even our enemies. Are we doing that? Maybe its not too late to start?

I won't be able to answer all questions here right away, I have over 85 PMs in my box, and countless threads needing attention, but I will try to come back.

 

[Time2BCounted]

No one has told you that this forum couldn't discuss conservative issues. Why would anyone tell you that? That is the whole purpose of this from from what I understand, but

we can all learn to discuss hings without being offensive and defensive can we not? Or is this absoultely necessary because of some feeling of insecurity?

This is not the case at all Jim. I can show you the reports found in violation, and we are muzzled whether anyone on staff wants to admit it or not. If i show you the threads where our opinion is found in violation will you open them back up for judgement again to make it right? Post a poll Jim if you want to see how the members here feel, i am not pulling this out of the air, i'm trying to mediate with staff concerning serious problems

You see where I come from and my point of view, our words carry a lot more emphisis if we leave the drama and emotion and threats out of them.

Your forum will still have adequate protection from attacks, but I can't outline that all yet as the guidelines are still in the works.

And what recourse do we have to remove trouble makers from membership? Can this be done by poll?

Thank you