A few questions...

[Cordy]

Hello everyone,

I have a few questions, but thought I should introduce myself first.

I am not a Messianic Jew, but I am very interested in what those who do call themselves such believe. I read through the FAQ’s. Although they were helpful, I still have many questions, and I am wondering what those here believe. I realize through reading though a few threads that there are words used here that I am either not familiar with or different that what I am commonly used to. I will try to catch on to these, and not offend anyone with any mistakes. Please correct me if anyone my words or statements in my questions are wrong or offensive to those here.

I guess I would attempt to define myself as a non-denominational follower of Christ. I really like to get the roots of what the Bible teaches.

Last December, my husband and I studied into the origin and meaning of Hanukkah, and decided to celebrate it together. I searched for some information on Messianic websites, and found the information extremely applicable to us and our faith. During our first Hanukkah celebration together, we focused on how the faithfulness of G-d endures today. It was a wonderful time of worship.

This experience with some of our spiritual history has brought curiosity into Messianic Judaism, and I was hoping could ask you folks a couple questions.



Why do you choose to be Messianic rather than “Christian”?

Do you believe you need the laws from the Old Testament to follow G-d, or is it simply preference?

Thank you

 

[Sephania]

Why do you choose to be Messianic rather than “Christian”?

Because there is a choice now and I believe that it most closely resembles the 1st century "church" or body of Messiah, Orthodox synsgogue aside.

Do you believe you need the laws from the Old Testament to follow G-d, or is it simply preference?

To follow in the path that He set forth, yes. To me it is not a preference to follow His commandments, but it is the way we should live for our own well being and in honor of our creator. To follow Him is to walk in His ways, that is what Torah teaches. I don't believe that you can fully understand G-d ( to the best that a human can) without knowing Torah and the prophets and the writings and following his commandments. As King David said because he understood better than most, "Your Torah is a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path, it lights the way".

 

[simchat_torah]

Why do you choose to be Messianic rather than “Christian”?

I would rather be considered Messianic rather than christian, and Jewish rather than messianic.

Do you believe you need the laws from the Old Testament to follow G-d, or is it simply preference?

Yes, it is the path of righteousness.

 

[Cordy]

Why do you beleive that the laws of the Old Testament apply today?

What is is that you do not favour in "Christianity"?

 

[simchat_torah]

Why do you beleive that the laws of the Old Testament apply today?

Y'shua said none of it would pass away until the Earth did. James says, "Breaking the law is sin. In fact, lawlessness (anomos = no torah) is sin!". Paul said, "The law is holy and the commandment is righteous, holy and good."

I could go on and on.

What is is that you do not favour in "Christianity"?

Christianity considers what I believe to be heretical (for the most part). I consider much of christianity to be heretical myself (such as the adoption of paganism, antisemetic dotrines like replacement theology, and the rejection of torah observance to name a few reasons why).

Thus I typically cringe at the title "christian" because of what it has come to mean. Originally, it was a sect within Judaism... the Netzarim... the messianic Jews. The term messianic today has become very estranged from Judaism, which is what the early believers aligned themselves with.

Thus my answer above.

shalom,
yafet

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Why do you beleive that the laws of the Old Testament apply today?

What is is that you do not favour in "Christianity"?

Greetings Mbams,

In a careful reading of the New Testament you will discover that neither Yeshua nor any of the apostles including Paul ever teach that the law is set aside in any way. One needs to make a few distinctions when reading New testament references to "law" or "Ordinances" or "Traditions".

Yeshua said that he did not come to destroy the law or the prophets. He goes on to say that whoever keeps the commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven. Whoever does not keep them will be called least. When He commissions the disciples to go and make disciples of all nations (Gentiles) Matt 28 he tells them to teach these Gentiles to do what he had commanded the Jewish believers to also do, Which is to obey the commandments. Torah is not law. It s instruction from God in sucessful living, spiritually, and practically. It is the way of peace.

Where Paul and Yeshua are often misunderstood is that they were both against the perversion of proper biblical Torah observance, into a system of legalistic observation in an attempt to earn your own salvation. This is not possible ( an imapropriate use of Torah) but had become a practice during the 2nd temple period.

I would suggest you spend some time here with us to go over these matters or choose from a growing selection of fine books available on this subject.

I often recommend "The Letter Writer" by Tem Hegg as a good starting point to understand Paul. Another new book which is very good is "Joint Heirs" by the same author. Avail from First Fruits of Zion www.ffoz.org

As for why not chose Christianity?, Hmmm, I usually get into trouble answering this. Let me say that there are many things that have become doctrine through tradition in the Christian church which are actually an afront to the commandments of the Bible. There are things practiced which do not have any root what so ever in Judaism, or in the church that existed for the first 200 years or more after the Resurection of Messiah. Many false doctrines and misunderstood or misapplied things that need to be stopped.

There is a better way. Do what the first believers did, which is the same thing that the Lord and the disciples themselves did. And that bears little to no resemblence to what the Church does.

I can say no more. I may be chastised yet again for what I have said. If you would like to PM me, we can talk in more specific terms.

Blessings to you in your search for truth. I hope you stick around and see what is happening. It is exciting.

Charles the Messimaniac

 

[ILY]

Shalom all,
I can't see why you (Charles) would be chastised.You just explained your beliefs.No attack against anyone.I *almost* always enjoy your commentaries.

Shalom and shalom
ILY<><

 

[iitb]

Completely off-topic, but I must say it's good to see Charles posting again.

Everyone carry on!

 

[debi b]

The origional questions you ask are big ones.....

My origional journey began the first time I read the Bible. I started at the beginning of the book. Everyone was in agreement that it was the word of G-d so I believed them. It occured to me that it must all fit together. And the rest is history.

To answer your second question is not so easy. It is almost easier to ask why do you think it is done away with? The problem so often is that two people gaze at the same evidence and draw different conclusions based on their point of view.

So what is it that causes such drastically varying perspectives on one book. I really believe the answer to that lies in the differences between Greek thinking and Hebraic thinking. This is an excerpt from a very good study on the subject from Wildbranch Ministries by Brad Scott and I highly recommend it.

THE GREEK VIEW OF SPIRITUALITY
This is one of the subjects that hits at the very core of differences between Western thinking and Scriptural thinking: "what it means to be spiritual". To the Greek mind, true spirituality is '"otherworldly'. It is found in living outside of this world and this philosophy can and does lead to all kinds of "New Age" teachings...The gods lived outside of this world and so a truly spiritual man lived outside of the cares of this world as well. Denying the physical and condemning emotion was part of this philosophy. Right thinking and right ideas were the hallmarks of the spiritual person...Denying ones self was very spiritual, because the physical was evil. The sooner one entered the heavenlies the better...Any Scriptures dealing with a heavenly citizenship was seen as advocating this otherworldly existence. Marriage was seen as of this world and was shunned. Abstaining from meat and certain foods was also promoted as obtaining a higher calling with the new logos. Since the logos was considered the mind of the minds, focusing on correct thinking was being "in the spirit". This would also lead to the correct path of receiving revelations from the logos...

THE HEBREW VIEW OF SPIRITUALITY
To begin with, true spirituality is earthly and not otherworldly. To the Hebrew, man was placed upon the earth and given responsibilities to take care of the earth. He is given instructions on how to take care of the body and how to love your neighbor. He is told how to plant crops and when not to plant crops. He is instructed as to when to celebrate, how and why to celebrate. He is told when to rest and when to work. He is told how and when to take care of the poor and how to handle money. To the scripturally spiritual man the 'other world' is the reward, not the goal. To be spiritual was to be involved in his world, to live life to the fullest according to YHVH's word. Yahshua said, "My words are spirit and they are life". YHVH came into His world and lived in His world. He suffered in His world, died in His world, was buried in His ground, and rose again IN HIS WORLD. True suffering was always a result of standing firm for the word of YHVH. It was not selfinflicted. Being a part of changing this world was to be spiritual. To be "in the spirit" was to act according to YHVH's word. To be spiritual was to be in this world, fully aware and fully focused on your part in all that you do...

We could talk about specific points of Scripture, but why we get out of them what we do has much to do with our perspective.

Be Blessed

 

[Cordy]

Thank you so much for the great responses debi b, charlesinflorida, zayit and simchat_torah! I enjoy learning what you have to say.

I also greatly welcome any more information you all are willing to give.

 

[schwartmrs]

My husband and I go to a non-denominational church. We are the only Messianics there. We are often called upon to teach in the congregation, and the Pastors are very open to learning about "all things Messianic."

I did a scriptural study on "The Role of the Torah in the Life of the New Testament Believer." I hesitate to post it here, because it is 14 pages long, but if you would like, I can email it to you The summary of it is this:

Scripture bears witness to the Torah. I deep study of NewTestament scripture leads a person to the conclusion that the Torah is for today.

Consider this...if Hannukah was such a meaningful experience for you, what else is there that can be meaningful? Ever tried Passover? Shavuot? Rosh Ha'shana?? My point is that in giving up the Torah, the church has cut itself off from just the kind of satisfaction and fulfillment that you re-discovered in Hannukah. There is more...much more...the more Messianic I become, the more joy I find!!

Blessings,

Shade

 

[schwartmrs]

One other thing...as far as why we identify ourselves as Messianic rather than Christian...it's pretty much the same reason that others have stated...we feel that the church has wandered away from the faith practiced in the first century.

Christianity has a very antisemitic history and that has affected its doctrine. We want to practice what the disciples practiced.

In my opinion, the greatest difference between the church and the Messianics is the Torah...if you can accept that the Torah is for today, you may as well call yourself a Messianic...because the rest is sure to follow.

Blessings,

Shade

 

[simchat_torah]

I hesitate to post it here, because it is 14 pages long...

You could always start a thread highlighting a major point within the paper, etc.

 

[schwartmrs]

Well, S_T, after a good long (and I mean long) look at your "opening statements" on the Kabbalah, maybe my study wouldn't seem so long, afterall.....(just kidding)

Maybe I'll do that

Shade

 

[schwartmrs]

Okay, it's up...don't beat me up too badly, okay??

Shade

 

[ShirChadash]

YAY Schwartmrs!!

 

[Cordy]

Thanks a bunch schwartmrs!

 

[simchat_torah]

Well, S_T, after a good long (and I mean long) look at your "opening statements" on the Kabbalah, maybe my study wouldn't seem so long, afterall.....(just kidding)

What? It wasn't that bad, was it?

I think I was even longer winded in the Akeidah thread, nu?

 

[Cordy]

I read some people describing passover (I think), and it sounds really interesting. But I don’t understand some of it because of the words. Would anyone be willing to explain any of the following?

Peshach
Lulav
Seder
Sukkot
Four Species
Etrog
Pitam
MITZVAH (good deed?)
Hoshana Rabbah
Afikomen
Matzah

Thank you

 

[simchat_torah]

Peshach (or pesach) is passover in Hebrew, transliterated into English

Lulav is used at Sukkot (feast of tabernacles), it is a palm branch

Seder is the meal you partake of during Pesach, and the liturgy typically follows through the seder

Sukkot, as previously mentioned, is the feast of tabernacles... also called Festival of Booths

Four spices are:
Etrog - [size=-1]The fruit of the goodly tree, also known as the citron[/size]
Palm branch - [size=-1]know as the lulav[/size]
Myrtle - [size=-1]the hadas[/size]
Willow - [size=-1]the aravah[/size]


I'm not sure what a Pitam is... maybe this is mispelled? or maybe I'm just ignorant?

Mitzvah is a commandment. Doing a commandment is a good deed. the plural is mitzvot

Hoshanah Rabbah is the seventh and last day of Sukkot

The afikomen is a specific piece of matzah used during the passover seder (see the "Messianic Tidbits by Yafet (tm)" thread for more info on Afikomen)

Matzah is flat bread, more like a cracker, that has no leaven in it.

I hope these answers help!
shalom,
yafet