A few questions for Protestants

timothyu · Feb 26, 2024

keepitsimple144 said:
God freed us and brought us into the kingdom of His Son. Col 1:12-15

Yes the Kingdom was official but man still has to reject the will of man over the will of God, the foundation of our self interest upon which we have made the world in our own image.

keepitsimple144 · Feb 26, 2024

timothyu said:
Yes the Kingdom was official but man still has to reject the will of man over the will of God, the foundation of our self interest upon which we have made the world in our own image.

Don't live in the past, since you have put off the old nature and have been clothed with the new [spiritual nature] renewed in knowledge in the image of the Creator – where there is neither Greek nor Jew, ...but Christ is all and in all. Colossians 3:9-11

timothyu · Feb 26, 2024

keepitsimple144 said:
Don't live in the past, since you have put off the old nature and have been clothed with the new

Yes, as I said, we reject putting our will ahead of God's, the original sin that Eve did, and now live according to His will alone.

QvQ · Feb 27, 2024

Fidelibus said:
So, respectfully Saucy, and now seeing this directly from Scripture, would you be willing to agree with me that the 'bible', for a Christian, is "Not" the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth, but rather is the "Church"?

The Church is the custodian of the Bible. The Church is to keep and pass along the "Word of God."
That is the "pillar and ground, i. e. the upholder and foundation of truth.

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou may know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

1) The Bible is the Truth
2) Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth
3) The Church is the pillar and ground of the Bible.

The Pillar and Ground of the Truth is the Church in the sense that it is the Church that preserves the Bible, the Truth Itself.
And the Church that has been doing this are the Protestants, printing, distributing the Bible and teaching people to read it for themselves.

There was that movie, "The Book of Eli" where the man, Eli, "became the Bible" as he had it memorized, word for word. He was "the pillar and ground" i.e. the upholder and foundation of the Truth, the Truth being the Bible. He was the only copy and he faithfully told it as written.
Without that copy and the man, there wasn't any Church.

The Church, which is the house of the living God, can be one faithful man and the Bible.

WilliamC · Feb 27, 2024

YeshuaFan said:
The OT canon was already fixed and accepted at time of Christ, as Jews never accepted as scripture any apocryphal books for the OT!

Buzzard3 said:
No it wasn't. The Jews disputed the canon of the OT.

WilliamC says:
Some say it was the Council of Jamnia that decided the OT canon. But it wasn't. It only confirmed what was accepted, or earlier put in place.
The OT canon as we know it, was compiled and accepted at least 200 years earlier than Jamnia 90 A.D.

*Josephus had, in essence, the same list as Jamnia did. His 22 compiled books were what we have listed as our 39 books.
*The OT had been translated in the Greek Septuagint about 200 B.C..
*Jesus quoted from nearly all the OT books, but never quoted from the other books..i.e....the Apocrypha and the Pseudepigrapha.
*Nearly all the OT books, at least in partial manuscripts were found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

Speaking of the Jews at Jamnia, disputing the canon of the OT...They questioned it, in part, because the early church (or some of the churches) had begun to incorporate some of the Greek Apocrypha, which parts they rejected and pushed back against the addition of such among the 39.
They simply accepted the already in place 39 books of the OT and rejected any of the Apocrypha and the Pseudepigrapha.

NewLifeInChristJesus · Feb 27, 2024

Fidelibus said:
First off...."The Spirit of Truth."

In verse 16 John makes a Greek grammatical error that may be bad Greek but is good Christian theology. The Greek word for wind or spirit is pneuma. The word is neuter and does not take the masculine article John has given it, but this is good theology. God the Holy Spirit is a person and not simply a force.

As for the three prepositions, Jesus assures every believer that God the Holy Spirit will be "with you" as your companion in fellowship, "by you" in His position as your advocate and consoler, and "in you" as the indwelling personal God who is your source of supernatural life.

Have a Blessed Day!

I couldn't find the gramatical error you are referencing. In all three instances of "the Spirit of truth" in John (4:17, 5:26, and 16:13), the article and the noun are both neuter, i.e., "τὸ πνεῦμα", at least in the USB4 text. Am I missing something?

The rest of what you said sounds great.

Fidelibus · Feb 27, 2024

QvQ said:
The Church is the custodian of the Bible.

You mention "church" as in the singular, what church are you speaking of?

The Church is to keep and pass along the "Word of God."

The Catholic Church Teaches that she is the Servant of the Word of God, in which I believe 100%.

That is the "pillar and ground, i. e. the upholder and foundation of truth.

As you can see in your quote below, it clearly does not mention the words "the upholder."

1 Timothy 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou may know how thou ought to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

1) The Bible is the Truth

Could you give the chapter and verse from the Bible where it says, "the Bible is the truth?"

2) Church is the pillar and ground of the Truth

Yes, the Bible does state this. (1Tim.3:15)

3) The Church is the pillar and ground of the Bible.

Could you please show the Bible verse that says, "The Church is the pillar and ground of the Bible."

The Pillar and Ground of the Truth is the Church in the sense that it is the Church that preserves the Bible, the Truth Itself.

Again, The Catholic Church Teaches that she is the Servant of the Word of God, in which I believe 100%.

And the Church that has been doing this are the Protestants, printing, distributing the Bible and teaching people to read it for themselves.

Again, you are referring to the church in the singular form, in this case, the Protestant church. Could you please be more specific on which Protestant church or sect you are referring? Could you also give a timeline this Protestant church or sect began to print, distribute, and teach from the bible?

There was that movie, "The Book of Eli" where the man, Eli, "became the Bible" as he had it memorized, word for word. He was "the pillar and ground" i.e. the upholder and foundation of the Truth, the Truth being the Bible. He was the only copy and he faithfully told it as written.

Sorry, haven't seen this movie. From what you have referenced here about the movie, I have to believe the movie to be fictional.

Without that copy and the man, there wasn't any Church.

Could you please show the chapter/verse from the Bible where it says this?

The Church, which is the house of the living God, can be one faithful man and the Bible.

Again, could you please show the chapter/verse from the Bible where it says this?

Have a Blessed Day!

QvQ · Feb 27, 2024

Ground Rules:
1) I do not engage in the Battle of the verses. I use Bible verses to illustrate a point. I do not use verses as "you are wrong and I am right" tearing apart the Bible in so doing. Nor do I endlessly argue what the meaning of "is, is" in several different ancient languages.
2) I do not intend to argue every single point of the entire Reformation. There are books upon books of battling verses dedicated to the enlightenment of any interested party. It is beyond the scope and indeed, space of the threads.

I will address some of your points, briefly.

Fidelibus said:
Could you give the chapter and verse from the Bible where it says, "the Bible is the truth?"

Can you give Chapter and Verse in the Bible which is Not True. If every Chapter and Verse in the Bible is True, it is reasonable to state the Bible is the truth.
Which chapter and verse would you label a lie?

Fidelibus said:
You mention "church" as in the singular, what church are you speaking of?

The Church can be one or many faithful men and the Bible.

Fidelibus said:
Again, you are referring to the church in the singular form, in this case, the Protestant church. Could you please be more specific on which Protestant church or sect you are referring? Could you also give a timeline this Protestant church or sect began to print, distribute, and teach from the bible?

For Catholics, it always comes back to two verses.
I have addressed 1 Timothy 3:15
The other verse is:
Matthew 16:18
It has been pointed out, there wasn't any papal "succession."
To that point, and immediately pre-Reformation
There are the Borgia Popes abt 1450-1500
If, in the beginning the Roman Church was the "one true Church" with Peter being the supreme authority, the corruption of that
subsequent succession was so flagrantly obvious that it gave lie to the very idea of "papal succession." And led to the Reformation.
The If in the proceeding paragraph, the Roman Church being the "one true church" is only taught by the Roman church.

For something to be true, it must have a corresponding reality.
If the "heirs and successors of Peter" were the Borgia Popes, then the Keys were given to diabolically sinful and wicked men. That cannot be true.
The authority of Peter, the keys to the Kingdom can be vested in the Bible itself, as it does have a corresponding reality and contains the Word of God.
The Bible is the pillar and foundation of the Church

(Christ is the pillar and foundation of the Faith and Church but my response is confined to the Bible and 1 Timothy 3:15 as per the question posted in the OP.)

Fidelibus · Feb 29, 2024

QvQ said:
Ground Rules:

Ground rules? Thats a first, Interesting.

1) I do not engage in the Battle of the verses. I use Bible verses to illustrate a point. I do not use verses as "you are wrong and I am right" tearing apart the Bible in so doing. Nor do I endlessly argue what the meaning of "is, is" in several different ancient languages.
2) I do not intend to argue every single point of the entire Reformation. There are books upon books of battling verses dedicated to the enlightenment of any interested party. It is beyond the scope and indeed, space of the threads.

Is it your belief that the Bible is sufficient as a sole rule of faith? IOW, are you a sola scripturist?

Can you give Chapter and Verse in the Bible which is Not True.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

"God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. “To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more.”The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.” (CCC 106-107)"

If every Chapter and Verse in the Bible is True, it is reasonable to state the Bible is the truth.

But this doesn't address my question. Again, could you please give the chapter and verse from the Bible where it says, "the Bible" is the truth?

Which chapter and verse would you label a lie?

Respectfully, I never suggested any verse or chapter to be a lie.

The Church can be one or many faithful men and the Bible.

With all due respect, this does not address my question. Again, on post # 1244 you said:

the Church that has been doing this are the Protestants, printing, distributing the Bible and teaching people to read it for themselves."

Again, my request of you was if you could please be more specific on which Protestant church or sect you are referring? Could you also give a timeline this Protestant church or sect began to print, distribute, and teach from the bible?

For Catholics, it always comes back to two verses.

Interesting statement

Matt.16:18; "And so I say to you, you are Peter [Petros], and upon this rock [petra] I will build my Church, and the gates of the netherworld [Hades] shall not prevail against it."

And we Catholic Christians believe this wholeheartedly and would hope all other Christians throughout the globe do as well.

If, in the beginning the Roman Church was the "one true Church" with Peter being the supreme authority, the corruption of that subsequent succession was so flagrantly obvious that it gave lie to the very idea of "papal succession." And led to the Reformation.If the "heirs and successors of Peter" were the Borgia Popes, then the Keys were given to diabolically sinful and wicked men. That cannot be true.

I disagree. All Church leaders are sinful to one degree or another, but the sinfulness of a particular leader says nothing about whether or not the office he occupies was instituted by God. If being a sinner prevented someone from being a leader, then every Christian community would be leaderless. Yet God instituted leaders in the Church (1 Cor. 12:28; Eph. 4:11–12; 1 Thess. 5:12–13; Heb. 13:17).

Sinfulness doesn’t mean a man does not occupy a divinely instituted office. A striking illustration is the high priest Caiaphas. John records that, when the authorities were plotting the death of Jesus, some were concerned that if Jesus were not stopped, he would lead a revolt and the Romans would then destroy the Jewish temple and nation. (John 11:47–52).

Something else to consider, Peter denied the Faith, saying that he wasn’t a disciple of Jesus, (John 18:17, 25) yet Jesus confirmed him in his office (John 21: 15–17), and he went on to pen two inspired epistles: 1 and 2 Peter.

he If in the preceding paragraph, the Roman Church being the "one true church" is only taught by the Roman church.

When you reference the "Roman Church" you are referring to the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church, correct? If so, what do you think that the other Rites of the Catholic Church would say about this statement of yours?

The Bible is the pillar and foundation of the Church

Once again, could you show in the bible where it says this?

(Christ is the pillar and foundation of the Faith and Church but my response is confined to the Bible and 1 Timothy 3:15 as per the question posted in the OP.)

With all respect, if your response is confined to the Bible, and the Bible alone, I would think you would have no problem answering the question above.

Have a Blessed Day
[/QUOTE]

MegChristian · Feb 29, 2024

Fidelibus said:
Under the Protestant/Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) theological system, is it your belief, and would you agree, there exists no person or no institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false for Christians when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

If you happen to answer yes to this question, my next question would be.... under this theological system, would you agree there is no sure way you could have absolute assurance of anything you believe being true? In other words, there is no way of knowing the truth?

Yet, Jesus says, "Know the truth and the truth will set make you free." (John 8:32)

So, let me leave you with this last question: For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

Have a Blessed day!

The truth has got to be in the Bible alone. If we start trying to let any other person or institution, however well meaning, attempt to define truth, then everything is up for grabs and anyone can claim they have some sort of "truth" upon which we must all agree. Which is how we are where we are at now with -- I lost count of how many genders, and the nonsense with "I identify as"... fill in the blank with the latest fad etc.

I lived in that state of confusion about the identity of God for most of my life. I would never want to go back to that sort of crazieness!!

QvQ · Feb 29, 2024

@Fidelibus
Quote:
”The inspired books teach the truth. “Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures.” (CCC 106-107)"

1) Augustine is not Gospel. Aquinas is not Scripture. Neither is Calvin.

The Popes are not Peter.

2) As for Tradition, Augustine then Aquinas incorporated much of Augustine. Calvin drew heavily on both Augustine and Aquinas. That is "succession" or "tradition" but the works of those authors are not "sacred scripture" or "gospel truth."

3) Now, perception and interpretation of Sacred Scripture
There is one verse that unlocks the door:

Matthew 7:7-8 7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

It is Faith in God
Ask, and God, the Holy Ghost, will open the door of our understanding.

timothyu · Feb 29, 2024

Religious empires teach us their human ways and expect allegiance to their institutions. God's words in scripture teach that the world of man is backwards and that to follow man is to follow blindness and foolishness. He expects loyalty to the Kingdom, not defense of one's church.

Fidelibus · Mar 1, 2024

MegChristian said:
The truth has got to be in the Bible alone.

Could you please provide the Chapter/verse from the Bible where it says this?

Have a Blessed Day!

Fidelibus · Mar 1, 2024

QvQ said:
@Fidelibus

1) Augustine is not Gospel. Aquinas is not Scripture. Neither is Calvin.

In all honestly, I never said they were.

The Popes are not Peter.

St. Peter was the Church that Jesus established.... first Pope.

2) As for Tradition, Augustine then Aquinas incorporated much of Augustine. Calvin drew heavily on both Augustine and Aquinas. That is "succession" or "tradition" but the works of those authors are not "sacred scripture" or "gospel truth."

Sacred Tradition stands as a cornerstone of the Catholic faith, embodying the living transmission of the Word of God as entrusted by Jesus Christ to the Apostles and their successors. This sacred deposit of faith is perpetuated throughout generations, maintaining the integrity of divine revelation and Church teachings.

The Bible itself underscores the importance of tradition. For instance, 2 Thess. 2:15 urges the faithful to “stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by our letter.”

3) Now, perception and interpretation of Sacred Scripture
There is one verse that unlocks the door: Matthew 7:7-8 7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

If Jesus says prayer is as easy as asking and "it will be given to you," why is it that sometimes God's answer to our prayers is "no" or "be patient"?

It is Faith in God
Ask, and God, the Holy Ghost, will open the door of our understanding.

In Matthew 7:7-8 Jesus gives three direct commands and three promises if one follows these commands in connection to how we should pray.

So, I'd like to ask you two or three more questions.

1. What are the three commands?

2. What are the three promises we are to expect if we follow these commands?

3. In verse seven, Jesus says "knock and the door will be opened to you." My question is, what door do you believe He is speaking of?

Respectfully QvQ, I noticed you didn't address any of my questions on my post # 1249. Is there a reason you didn't? I would really like to know what you have to say about them.

Have a Blessed Day!

timothyu · Mar 1, 2024

Fidelibus said:
St. Peter was the Church that Jesus established.... first Pope.

I thought the previous verse established that truth came from God alone and not man, and this was the foundation His church would be built upon.

QvQ · Mar 1, 2024

Fidelibus said:
If Jesus says prayer is as easy as asking and "it will be given to you," why is it that sometimes God's answer to our prayers is "no" or "be patient"?

IF?

Fidelibus said:
In verse seven, Jesus says "knock and the door will be opened to you." My question is, what door do you believe He is speaking of?

The door to know love and serve God.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

There is a difference between Preaching and Teaching.
There is a difference between Believe and Faith.
Belief can be taught.
Faith is by the Grace of God.

MegChristian · Mar 1, 2024

Fidelibus said:
Could you please provide the Chapter/verse from the Bible where it says this?

Have a Blessed Day!

I discussed this challenge with my husband, and considered trying to prove my point with Bible verses. But in my heart, I feel that only this statement is necessary:

I personally choose the Bible as the final authority on truth. I chose to turn to Jesus Christ as my Lord and God whose authority over my life is absolute. I choose the Bible as the only source of truth about who God is, how He thinks and how He expects me to live. Jesus Christ and His Word are good enough for me. So every chapter and every verse in the Bible says all that is needed to be said.

timothyu · Mar 1, 2024

Yes open source is always better than a controlled narrative and salvation behind a paywall.

keepitsimple144 · Mar 1, 2024

timothyu said:
Yes, as I said, we reject putting our will ahead of God's, the original sin that Eve did, and now live according to His will alone.

And in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; Rom 11:26
As you come to him, the living Stone...
“See, I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone,..." 1 Peter 2:4-6

JulieB67 · Mar 2, 2024

Fidelibus said:
For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible?

If you're going by this verse -

I Timothy 3:15 "But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth."

The church is the many membered body that holds to the traditions that Christ/prophets/apostles brought forth. And I'll say there are few and far between churches today that bring forth that truth- nothing less, nothing more. That's what true and early church were founded on.
Thankfully the church today can still meet anywhere as long as they are grounded in the same truths brought forth. Not traditions of men that make void the word of God.

Ephesians 2:19 "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;"

Ephesians 2:20 "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;"

If your church has in any way swayed from their teachings or added new ones I don't think they can be included in the true church. This goes for any denomination/church. I left mine when they taught false doctrines that could not be backed up by what Christ/prophets/apostles taught.

Paul wrote 1st Timothy 3:15 but he also wrote this-

Acts 20:29 "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock."

We have to use the Word of God to back up anything one is teaching to see if it is contrary to what Christ and the prophets/apostles brought forth.

Paul says hold to the traditions they brought forth.

II Thessalonians 2:15 "Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle."

It doesn't state we are to add to those traditions. There is no need to. Christ's ministry which he told the disciples to spread to the world is perfect. Paul and others certainly can add their own personal advice but they usually noted when doing so.

But if a church has veered off course it's our own responsibility to back up what they state is truth.

A few questions for Protestants

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member

Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency