A few questions for Protestants

[Clare73]

Please see my post above. In order to further the discussion I think it is imperative that we define what "the church" actually constitutes. I am convinced that Fidelibus' definition is quite at odds with yours and my own.

The NT is pretty clear on that one. . .in the NT the church is simply the body of Christ, the wife of Christ in the two-in-one enfleshment of the marital union, all believers. . .nothing more and nothing less.

Feel free to present anything in the NT stating otherwise.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

But is it? That being, is "the bible" the pillar and ground of the truth, the upholder and foundation of the truth? What does Scripture say?

It's pretty clear what the Bible says.

• God... has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power... (Heb 1:1–3)
• He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. (Col 1:15–17)
• And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence. Col 1:18)
• For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (Col 2:9–10)
• In Him "are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." (Col 2:3)
• Christ [is] the power of God and the wisdom of God. (1 Co 1:24)

We tend to want to make various agents of God the stars of the show, but the Bible is clear that Jesus is the alpha and omega, beginning and end of the truth.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Under the Protestant/Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) theological system, is it your belief, and would you agree, there exists no person or no institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false for Christians when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

I do not see myself as "protesting" against the Catholic Church because I accept it for what it is. Neither do I identify myslelf as belonging to any Latin language labeled theological system because I do not have the patience to learn all the technical details of what is involved in them. But I can answer your questions about my beliefs: Yes, I agree that there exists no institutions and only one person (Jesus) who can infallibly (i.e., one who is incapable of making mistakes and can never be wrong) decide what is true or false on any matter, including matters of faith and morals.

If you happen to answer yes to this question, my next question would be.... under this theological system, would you agree there is no sure way you could have absolute assurance of anything you believe being true? In other words, there is no way of knowing the truth?

Interesting follow-up question. Why in the world would a person who has "received the Spirit who is from God" (1 Cor 2:12) so that he might know "the deep things of God" that only His Spirit knows (1 Cor 2:11) turn away from Him and not have absolute confidence in His communications?

But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them (2 Ti 3:14)​

Isn't He the most trustworthy person in the universe?

 

[WilliamC]

Under the Protestant/Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) theological system, is it your belief, and would you agree, there exists no person or no institution that can infallibly decide what is true and what is false for Christians when it comes to matters of faith and/or morals?

There does exist someone who can infallibly decide what is true and what is false. The Holy Spirit. When Jesus left, He gave us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, who He stated would teach us all things, and bring to remembrance, whatsoever Jesus had said. Jn. 14:26. The Holy Spirit would guide us into ALL truth. Jn. 16:13
Jesus own words tells us that He did not keep anything back, or in secret when He taught on this earth Jn. 18:20.

If you happen to answer yes to this question, my next question would be.... under this theological system, would you agree there is no sure way you could have absolute assurance of anything you believe being true? In other words, there is no way of knowing the truth?

The early church knew the truth already, they even wrote it down for us.
I Jn. 2:21,27- 20 But you have an unction from the Holy One; and ye know all things...27 But the anointing which you have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
I Pet. 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
Matt. 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you...

Yet, Jesus says, "Know the truth and the truth will set make you free." (John 8:32)

We have the truth, and are set apart by such...
Jn. 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

So, let me leave you with this last question: For a Christian, what is the pillar and ground of the truth - i.e., the upholder and foundation of the truth? Is it the Bible? Yes or no?

The Christian is the church, and they are the pillar that upholds, supports, shores up the truth. But the truths they uphold are found in what we call the Scriptures...Jesus Words.
How do we understand knowledge, understand doctrine?
Isa. 28:9-10 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine?... For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept: line upon line, line upon line :here a little, and there a little.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept....
They find proper understanding by looking in the word of the Lord.
When one is ready to truly accept real truth, it will be taught to them... until then, if they are not sincere, or truly open to truth.. God will cause them to believe only lies.
II Thess. 2:10...because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Have a Blessed day!

And good health to you.

 

[keepitsimple144]

Interesting follow-up question. Why in the world would a person who has "received the Spirit who is from God" (1 Cor 2:12) so that he might know "the deep things of God" that only His Spirit knows (1 Cor 2:11) turn away from Him and not have absolute confidence in His communications?

But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them (2 Ti 3:14)​

Isn't He the most trustworthy person in the universe?

When Jesus left, He gave us the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, who He stated would teach us all things, and bring to remembrance, whatsoever Jesus had said. Jn. 14:26. The Holy Spirit would guide us into ALL truth. Jn. 16:13...

The early church knew the truth already, they even wrote it down for us.
I Jn. 2:21,27- 20 But you have an unction from the Holy One; and ye know all things...27 But the anointing which you have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
I Pet. 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth forever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

We have the truth, and are set apart by such...
Jn. 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

You two are killing it. Well done.
Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:16-18

 

[Fidelibus]

You two are killing it.

Killing what, and according to whom?

Well done.

What is?

Whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. John 14:16-18

Quick question, why does Jesus speak of God the Holy Spirit as another advocate in John 14:16?

Have a Blessed Day!!

 

[Fidelibus]

Hey K.I.S. 144, Couple other things came to mind in regard to Jn.14:16 I'd like to ask you.

First off, what title does Jesus give the Holy Spirit?

Secondly, I notice that three prepositions are used in this verse to describe the Spirit's relationship to the believer. So, my question to you is, what do you believe they are, and what do believe they suggest?



Have a Blessed Day!

 

[keepitsimple144]

Killing what, and according to whom?

According to Scripture.
For the one who sows to his flesh will reap from the flesh destruction, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Gal 6:8

Quick question, why does Jesus speak of God the Holy Spirit as another advocate in John 14:16?

Because it's not of yourselves, it is a gift of God. Eph 2:8

 

[keepitsimple144]

Hey K.I.S. 144, Couple other things came to mind in regard to Jn.14:16 I'd like to ask you.

First off, what title does Jesus give the Holy Spirit?

Spirit of truth, advocate, counselor, comforter.

Secondly, I notice that three prepositions are used in this verse to describe the Spirit's relationship to the believer. So, my question to you is, what do you believe they are, and what do believe they suggest?

No suggestion, the Spirit guarantees,
Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit 2 Cor 5:5

He fashions their hearts individually; Psalm 33:15

 

[WilliamC]

Quick question, why does Jesus speak of God the Holy Spirit as another advocate in John 14:16?

Because the Scriptures speak of two who are advocating on behalf of sinners.
I John 2:1 ...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.
And the Holy Spirit as advocate spoken about in John 14:16. (Given to us on earth,after Jesus went to heaven).
Hebrews 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God...
Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

The Holy Spirit (on the earth working in our behalf... for us) takes our confessions..prayers.. and brings them to Jesus (in heaven) who intercedes for us.
Blessings!

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Quick question, why does Jesus speak of God the Holy Spirit as another advocate in John 14:16?

Hey K.I.S. 144, Couple other things came to mind in regard to Jn.14:16 I'd like to ask you.

First off, what title does Jesus give the Holy Spirit?

Secondly, I notice that three prepositions are used in this verse to describe the Spirit's relationship to the believer. So, my question to you is, what do you believe they are, and what do believe they suggest?

These are good questions. I believe they invite us to explore the wonderfuly diverse intimate personal relationship we have with the God who resides in our hearts. I would love to hear your answers to the questions you have raised.

 

[Fidelibus]

According to Scripture.

The way I understand the concept of sowing and then reaping the harvest of what has been sowed for good or for ill is frequently a teaching in Scripture. For example, Job 4:8; Jer 17:10 and Jesus' parable of the seed and the Sower in Matt. 13:1-9 and 18-23.

for the one who sows to his flesh will reap from the flesh destruction, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. Gal 6:8

Interesting take. So, let me ask you, with the understanding that the Sower is each person, and the field in which the seed is sown is one's life, what is Paul's point?

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[timothyu]

Value of the Kingdom over what man believes to be precious in this world we have made in our own image. Take note of the news and the coming elections. Nothing reflects the Kingdom.

 

[Fidelibus]

Spirit of truth, advocate, counselor, comforter.

Thats interesting, in my Catholic bible, John 14:16 reads as: "And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another [Advocate] to be with you always."

And in the KJV of the bible, John 14:16 reads: "and I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another [Comforter], that he may abide with you forever."

In both versions of this passage, I fail to see the words counselor, advocate, or Spirit of truth. However, in the beginning of verse 17 , it mentions "the Spirit of truth." What does your version of John 14:16 read as?

No suggestion, the Spirit guarantees

What do you believe that guarantee to be?

Now the one who has fashioned us for this very purpose is God, who has given us the Spirit 2 Cor 5:5

My Catholic understanding of verse 5 reminds us of what Paul wrote in 1:22, ("he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.") he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.
What do you believe is our "first installment"?

He fashions their hearts individually; Psalm 33:15

Again, my Catholic understanding of Psalm 33 is a hymn in which the just are invited (Ps 33:1–3) to praise God, who by a mere word (Ps 33:4–5) created the three-tiered universe of the heavens, the cosmic waters, and the earth (Ps 33:6–9). Human words, in contrast, effect nothing (Ps 33:10–11). The greatness of human beings consists in God’s choosing them as a special people and their faithful response (Ps 33:12–22).

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[Fidelibus]

These are good questions. I believe they invite us to explore the wonderfuly diverse intimate personal relationship we have with the God who resides in our hearts. I would love to hear your answers to the questions you have raised.

First off...."The Spirit of Truth."

In verse 16 John makes a Greek grammatical error that may be bad Greek but is good Christian theology. The Greek word for wind or spirit is pneuma. The word is neuter and does not take the masculine article John has given it, but this is good theology. God the Holy Spirit is a person and not simply a force.

As for the three prepositions, Jesus assures every believer that God the Holy Spirit will be "with you" as your companion in fellowship, "by you" in His position as your advocate and consoler, and "in you" as the indwelling personal God who is your source of supernatural life.

Have a Blessed Day!

 

[timothyu]

So the Hellenistic definition is preferred by Gentiles over the Hebrew definition? Figures.

Holy - (qadosh) to be set apart for a special purpose (not meaning, to be righteous)

Spirit - (ru'ach) wind (to follow a recommended path)

 

[keepitsimple144]

Interesting take. So, let me ask you, with the understanding that the Sower is each person, and the field in which the seed is sown is one's life, what is Paul's point?

If you plant in the field of your old nature, you will harvest destruction. But if you plant in the field of your new nature, you will harvest everlasting life.

Even now the harvest workers are gathering fruit for eternal life. So that those who sow and those who harvest can rejoice together. John 4:36

You have increased the nation; They rejoice before You According to the joy of harvest; Isaiah 9:3

 

[timothyu]

You have increased the nation;

And in turn the Kingdom, not the world of man

 

[keepitsimple144]

What do you believe that guarantee to be?

My Catholic understanding of verse 5 reminds us of what Paul wrote in 1:22, ("he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.") he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.
What do you believe is our "first installment"?

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit; The Spirit is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits], eagerly awaiting full redemption to the praise of His glory. Eph 1:13-14

Trust in the Lord for with him is full redemption. Psalm 130:7

 

[keepitsimple144]

And in turn the Kingdom, not the world of man

God freed us and brought us into the kingdom of His Son. Col 1:12-15