Why do these things happen to Christians? I really do not have a good answer at the moment, but perhaps someone will come along and help on this point.
Second, names can be blotted out of the book of life. A name being blotted out of the book of life suggests that they were once saved. This does not make any sense in the Calvinistic universe. In Calvinism: One can only go from being not in the book of life to then being placed there. However, in Revelation 3, we see that Jesus will confess a person's name before the Father and not blot out their name out of the book of life if they overcome (See Revelation 3:5). For if you were to read Revelation 3:1-4, he is telling those at Sardis to repent for He did not find their works perfect before God and their garments were defiled. The Lord only found a few in Sardis whose garments were not defiled. This is leading the reader to think that if they are like Sardis, they need to repent and get their works perfect before God and overcome, or they are not going to be saved.
While it is true that God does not directly create evil, I see your belief as causing a similar dilemma. For how do you explain the fact that God chooses not to save some (reprobate) when He could have saved them? Wouldn't that mean it is in God's will for people to remain unsaved and as a result God wanted them to do evil instead of good? For does He not have power to save them and make them good instead of making them to remain as the reprobate who are evil?
true - i think the issue between calvinists and non-calvinists would be that God creates some people soley for the purpose of going to hell - He created them to resist GodBut the truth is that, no matter how you look at it, God creates people knowing full well that many (perhaps most) will go to Hell.
The Doctrines of Grace as Taught in the Gospel of John
You said:John 6:44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;
You said:John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
You said:John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.
John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.
You said:John 17:2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 “And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
You said:John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
You said:John 10:26 “But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
You said:John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
You said:John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’
You said:John 5:21 “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
You said:John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
John 6:64 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
You said:John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
You said:John 15:16 “You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
true - i think the issue between calvinists and non-calvinists would be that God creates some people soley for the purpose of going to hell - He created them to resist God
is this what calvinists believe?
God Bless you my friend
I am passing on the "all" and "world" verses because they are easily refuted by a greater context, which implies "all" of the elect in Christ, "all" that the Father intends. Further the passages I quoted from the Gospel of John, demonstrates contradiction in your interpretation of those words.
How do I explain it? How do you explain the "Passover" event in Exodus Chapter 12? Did the Egyptians have a choice in the matter? Did God provide a means of escape for their children? I mean you think the notion of free will is a get out of jail free card, but it's not.
Right right but you gave the impression of seeking answers and learning about Calvinism, not to inform about things I already know which are not relevant to the answers I provided.
true - i think the issue between calvinists and non-calvinists would be that God creates some people soley for the purpose of going to hell - He created them to resist God
is this what calvinists believe?
God Bless you my friend
i have seen calvinists misunderstand the non-calvinist theologyThere are also other problems with Calvinism.
Tulip or the 5 points of Calvinism all have problems.
For example: Total Depravity (which is one point within Calvinism) is wrong because it places salvation soley in God's hands. Man is not responsible for choosing God. This leads people to be apathetic towards God. This type of belief reminds me of the type of person who doesn't want to take responsibility for his own life. It's everyone else's fault but their own. But the problem of making it all God who saves us is that it turns the Judgment into a joke or a farce. For how can we really be guilty before God if we had no say so in the matter of chaning our situation before God? It makes no sense. Yes, some Calvinists believe that God force regenerates a person based on what He knows what they are going to do after they are regenerated, but there is simply no proof of this in Scripture. God desired Cain to do good and not to sin (Genesis 4:7) and yet Jude 1:11 implies Cain was not saved in the end.
i have seen calvinists misunderstand the non-calvinist theology
i have seen calvinsists claim that non-c's misunderstand their theology
so far i don't properly understand what calvinists believe
i have talked to non-c's about it and being a non-c i do understand what we believe - but i have been trying to understand what c's believe for a while now
imo there are some differences in definitions each group uses that complicates the issue
i think there might be some points i agree with calvinism on - like eternal security - so i am trying to fully understand
as a fellow non-calvinst/non-arminian i do understand what you are saying - non-c/non-a theology makes sense to me - i don't think there really are many arminians today - but there are a lot of calvinists - so i am interested in understanding what they say before i make any conclusions - and i don't really like to judge - i really only like to understand - even if i disagree with another person's beliefs
God Bless you my friend
I did not say anything even close to that. I was merely commenting on what other members here have said about Calvinism and the totally opposite interpretations that they, taken all together, have posted.
Here you are misrepresenting what was said in this thread. I was the one who raise the issue of the fact that you do not even want to represent Calvinism properly. I was reading the thread and noted that Apologetic Warrior was posting certain links to assist you in representing what we believe correctly. You showed no interest and even said sometime insulting about the links.Oh, I am interested in learning the WHY different folks (like yourself) believe the way they do in regards to Calvinism. But it was never with the intent to accept the Calvinistic belief.
I would enjoy discussing why you think Calvinism is biblically wrong, but I know that cannot happen since you do not know what Calvinism actually says about itself. You will repeat misrepresentations of Calvinism I will become increasingly insulted by your ignorance of Calvinism. It is better that I leave this thread now.I have been convinced for a long time Calvinism is unbiblical and not in line with basic morality. My asking the questions was so as to reply back with a proper argument in return and to help others who struggled with this topic to make the right choice with God's Word. So thank you for helping me.
So I do not believe a person can fall away from the faith,
No those scriptures don’t. Just your emotional opinion of what’s just in your eyes. What’s unbiblical is the false doctrine of libertarian free will of self worship. Which is none other than works based salvation that makes the cross of Christ of no value whatsoever. And nullifies the grace of God that saves. Which shows a denial of the gospel. “Calvinism” is the gospel as it relates to the doctrines of grace. Pelagianism Arminianism is synergistic works based salvation which denies The gospel of Christ
Here you are misrepresenting what was said in this thread. I was the one who raise the issue of the fact that you do not even want to represent Calvinism properly. I was reading the thread and noted that Apologetic Warrior was posting certain links to assist you in representing what we believe correctly. You showed no interest and even said sometime insulting about the links.
I would enjoy discussing why you think Calvinism is biblically wrong, but I know that cannot happen since you do not know what Calvinism actually says about itself. You will repeat misrepresentations of Calvinism I will become increasingly insulted by your ignorance of Calvinism. It is better that I leave this thread now.
There is no doubt in my mind that you have never even read one Reformed work (not even one) on how we define our own doctrines. The number of misrepresentations in what your write is astonishing. Why would you think you have any integrity with Reformed people when you misrepresent us so badly? The only conclusion that I can come to is that your not actually talking to anyone reformed. Your just trying to rally the anti-reformed faithful emotionally.
Well, I am out. I will try to stay out of this thread.
Well, the problem here is that you did not even attempt at an explanation of these verses with Scripture. You just hit the disagree button using your own opinion. Please explain these verses using God's Word.
Thank you;
And may God bless you.
"a person?" "right from wrong?" I think that question needs a little bit better definition.
Thats right. But if you want an answer, you need to make clear what it is that you are asking.I didn't define anything.
I asked a simple question:
Do you believe a person has a free will, to chose right from wrong, good from evil;
to serve God rather than Satan?
I think you are desperate to complicate a very simple question, to distort the issue.
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