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Featured A Few Questions for Calvinists (Trying to figure out what you believe).

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jason0047, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. Neal of Zebulun

    Neal of Zebulun Active Member

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    Hebrews 12:5-11

    Yahweh help us
     
  2. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    Since I do not consider myself but an armchair theologian, a layman, and not really a great one at that, I thought it wise to consult the words of the wiser, men that have spent more time in Scripture than I will most likely ever have, so in response to the above, I offer the following expositions on Rev 3:5:

    From Jamieson, Fausett, Brown's Commentary

    "blot out . . . name out of . . . book of life—of the heavenly city. A register was kept in ancient cities of their citizens: the names of the dead were of course erased. So those who have a name that they live and are dead (Re 3:1), are blotted out of God's roll of the heavenly citizens and heirs of eternal life; not that in God's electing decree they ever were in His book of life. But, according to human conceptions, those who had a high name for piety would be supposed to be in it, and were, in respect to privileges, actually among those in the way of salvation; but these privileges, and the fact that they once might have been saved, shall be of no avail to them. As to the book of life, compare Rev 13:8; Rev 17:8; Rev 20:12; Rev 20:15; Rev 21:27; Exod 32:32; Ps 69:28; Dan 12:1. In the sense of the "call," many are enrolled among the called to salvation, who shall not be found among the chosen at last. The pale of salvation is wider than that of election. Election is fixed. Salvation is open to all and is pending (humanly speaking) in the case of those mentioned here. But Rev 20:15; Rev 21:27, exhibit the book of the elect alone in the narrower sense, after the erasure of the others."

    Bob Utley Commentary Series
    "I will not erase his name from the book of life" This is a strong Double negative. When citizens died, their names would be erased from the rolls of their city but God will never erase believers from His rolls.
    This metaphorical phrase "the book of life" is also found in Rev. 20:12-15, where two books are mentioned:
    1. the book of life which is made up of the names of God's people (cf. Exod. 32:32-33; Ps. 69:28; Isa. 4:3; Dan. 12:1; Luke 10:20; Phil. 4:3; Heb. 12:23; Rev 13:8; 17:8; 20:12,15; 21:27)
    2. the book of deeds or remembrances which records the deeds of both the wicked and righteous (cf. Ps. 56:8, 139:16; Isa. 65:6; Mal. 3:16)
    For "book" see notes at Rev. 5:1."

    Matthew Pool's Annotations
    "And I will not blot out his name out of the book of life; that is, I will give him everlasting life: the phrase is an allusion to men who use to keep books, and in them the names of persons to whom they will show kindness. The book of life; applied to God, signifieth his eternal predestination, or purpose to bring some to heaven; out of which book, though none can be blotted out whose name is once wrote in, yet those whose names are in this book may be under some fears and apprehensions to the contrary. Christ assures them to the contrary, that they shall certainly be saved, but lets them know that this assurance depends upon their perseverance; of which also some make this phrase a promise."

    Matthew Henry's Commentary
    I will not blot his name out of the book of life, but will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. Observe, (1.) Christ has his book of life, a register and roll of all who shall inherit eternal life. [1.] The book of eternal election. [2.] The book of remembrance of all those who have lived to God, and have kept up the life and power of godliness in evil times. (2.) Christ will not blot the names of his chosen and faithful ones out of this book of life; men may be enrolled in the registers of the church, as baptized, as making a profession, as having a name to live, and that name may come to be blotted out of the roll, when it appears that it was but a name, a name to live, without spiritual life; such often lose the very name before they die, they are left of God to blot out their own names by their gross and open wickedness. But the names of those that overcome shall never be blotted out. (3.) Christ will produce this book of life, and confess the names of the faithful who stand there, before God, and all the angels; he will do this as their Judge, when the books shall be opened; he will do this as their captain and head, leading them with him triumphantly to heaven, presenting them to the Father: Behold me, and the children that thou hast given me. How great will this honour and reward be!"

    I have quoted a few to show a consistency that also takes into account the type of language used and cultural context for that language. The above commentaries explain the use of metaphorical terminology in Rev 3:5, and they are all helpful, though Henry's exposition resonates the clearest to me as a response to the notion of "blotting out" names of the elect in this particular passage of Scripture.
     
  3. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

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    I am passing on the "all" and "world" verses because they are easily refuted by a greater context, which implies "all" of the elect in Christ, "all" that the Father intends. Further the passages I quoted from the Gospel of John, demonstrates contradiction in your interpretation of those words.

    How do I explain it? How do you explain the "Passover" event in Exodus Chapter 12? Did the Egyptians have a choice in the matter? Did God provide a means of escape for their children? I mean you think the notion of free will is a get out of jail free card, but it's not.
     
  4. Truthfrees

    Truthfrees Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter Recovery Team CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team

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    true - i think the issue between calvinists and non-calvinists would be that God creates some people soley for the purpose of going to hell - He created them to resist God

    is this what calvinists believe?

    God Bless you my friend
     
  5. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    Well, you didn't address the 3 pieces of Scripture I brought up.

    This is not talking about Calvinism (that does not exist).

    The context of being drawn by the Father is a man has heard and learned of the Father.

    44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
    45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:44-45).

    To properly understand a verse we must consider the context, but first let's take note of what the verse does not say: It doesn't say how the Father grants people to come to Jesus. It doesn't state what the criteria the Father uses to grant people to come to Jesus. All we know is that people cannot come to Jesus unless the Father allows it. In other words, people cannot decide on their own how they want to come to Jesus and the Father will accept it.

    People who saw Jesus in person, including his miracle of feeding 5,000 people were looking for Jesus. They were following him, but for the wrong reason. "Jesus answered them and said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him"" (John 6:26-27). By their own inadvertent testimony they stated they did not believe in Jesus. "Therefore they said to Him, "What sign will You perform then, that we may see it and believe You? What work will You do?"" (John 6:30). What they wanted was more free food. That the earlier miracle was done to prove that Jesus was the Christ didn't matter to them. Likely with such a crowd no matter how many miracles Jesus might do, it would never be enough. They would always hold out and say "We'll believe in you if you do more miracles." Jesus understood this.

    "But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me" (John 6:36-38).

    These people physically come to Jesus, but since they did not accept Jesus, they didn't fully and truly came to him. Here then is a hint. The Father has given Jesus those who believe in him -- really believe, not just a claim of belief or an offer to believe.

    Jesus shortly returns to the same point:

    "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, 'And they shall all be taught by God.' Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me" (John 6:44-45).

    Here then is how the Father brings people to Jesus. People are taught by God. Those who hear and actually learn from God will fully come to Jesus. Add in Paul's statement and it becomes very clear: "So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Romans 10:17). Those who believe come to Jesus. How do people believe? They hear the words of God -- words that that came from the Father.

    Jesus is not talking about arbitrary selection of individuals from before the creation of the world. He is talking about a plan of God that drew people to the truth. It starts with God's teaching, which then awakens belief in some people who then seek out Jesus with their full hearts.

    Jesus points out in John 6:65 that these people wanted to follow him on their own terms and in their own way. But God's way requires learning and believing. "For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe" (I Corinthians 1:21).

    Source:
    Doesn't John 6:65 teach predestination?

    John 8:43 says,
    "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word."

    So do people not hear his Word because they have not been regenerated or is it because THEY need to see and hear and understand? Scripture says the people's hearts are waxed gross and are dull of hearing and their eyes are closed UNLESS at any time THEY should see with their eyes, hear with their ears, and understand with their heart. For it is written...

    "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." (Matthew 13:15).

    This is talking about how salvation first went out to the 12 disciples and the Jews. It is not talking about the Gentiles yet. When Israel rejected their Messiah, then salvation went out to the Gentiles. This is evident when the Canaanite woman came to Jesus and He said to her,
    "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Matthew 15:24).

    Yet, 1 John 2:2 says that he is not only the propitiation for our sins but for the sins of the whole world. It does not make sense to say that he is the propitiation for believers sins and yet he is the propitiation of sins of believers sins. Besides, 2 Peter 2:1 says that there are false prophets who deny that the Lord bought them. So yes. Jesus died for his sheep but He also died for even false prophets and the WHOLE world just as 1 John 2:2 says.

    Again, see Matthew 13:15.

    This simply means that man cannot come to God on his own terms and that if man does seek God with all his heart, they will find Him.

    "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).

    Matthew 13:15 says unless they hear with their ears, see with their eyes, and understand with their heart, they will then be converted. So the decision on being born again is left up the the people. It's why we have a Bible! A person reading it is being told that they must be born again. God is commanding or demanding that of the reader.

    The context is talking about how the Son can quicken or give life just as the Father can quicken and give life. Jesus is talking about how He has power just like God the Father. Jesus is not talking about how Calvinistic regeneration here.

    Already addressed this point before on John chapter 6.

    Believing is more than just believing in the person of Jesus Christ by their own imagining; One has to believe and follow Jesus as described in the Holy Scriptures; And Jesus commands us to do many things. For Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Also, when Peter failed to walk on water, he said, "you have little faith." So failing to take proper action for our Lord is a matter of a lack of faith or belief. For faith without works is dead.

    This is before Jesus was crucified. This is in reference to the disciples who were Israelites at that time. God had a certain apostleship at that time to reach Israel. A select group who were chosen and appointed to reach the lost house of Israel.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
  6. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    God choosing some to be damned (When He could have saved them but He simply doesn't based on no conditions within man) is called Double Predestination. Some Calvinists believe in this and other Calvinistis don't.

    There are different levels of Calvinism. But most Calvinists I have encountered are usually 5 point Calvinists or 4 point Calvinists.

    Here is a categorization of the different levels of Calvinism (By a Calvinist):

    Types of Calvinism – A Comprehensive List

    The problem with this belief is that 2 Peter 2:1 says that there are false prophets who deny that the Lord has bought them. If God elects certain men to remain as unbelievers (such as false prophets), then how can Christ have bought them? It makes no sense. What they believe (i.e. Calvinism) is nowhere to be found in Scripture.
     
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  7. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    Please explain the 3 verses I brought forth first.
     
  8. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    Nowhere did I give such an impression. Actually, I said things like "forced salvation" in my questions which should have given you the clue that I was not really open to what you had to say. Nowhere did I say I was leaning towards what you believed in any way and was open to considering it. I was merely asking questions to figure out what you believe so as to refute your beliefs more precisely. In fact, our initial conversation started off with me saying Calvinism was immoral in my opinion. I never said to you that I was changing my belief on that.
     
  9. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    There are also other problems with Calvinism.

    Tulip or the 5 points of Calvinism all have problems.

    For example: Total Depravity (which is one point within Calvinism) is wrong because it places salvation soley in God's hands because Man is Totally Depraved and cannot choose God. Man is not responsible for choosing God. This leads people to be apathetic towards God. This type of belief reminds me of the type of person who doesn't want to take responsibility for his own life. It's everyone else's fault but their own. But the problem of making it all God who saves us is that it turns the Judgment into a joke or a farce. For how can we really be guilty before God if we had no say so in the matter of changing our situation before God? It makes no sense. Yes, some Calvinists believe that God force regenerates a person based on what He knows what they are going to do after they are regenerated, but there is simply no proof of this in Scripture. God desired Cain to do good and not to sin (Genesis 4:7) and yet Jude 1:11 implies Cain was not saved in the end.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
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  10. Truthfrees

    Truthfrees Well-Known Member Staff Member Purple Team - Moderator Supporter Recovery Team CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team

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    i have seen calvinists misunderstand the non-calvinist theology

    i have seen calvinsists claim that non-c's misunderstand their theology

    so far i don't properly understand what calvinists believe

    i have talked to non-c's about it and being a non-c i do understand what we believe - but i have been trying to understand what c's believe for a while now

    imo there are some differences in definitions each group uses that complicates the issue

    i think there might be some points i agree with calvinism on - like eternal security - so i am trying to fully understand

    as a fellow non-calvinst/non-arminian i do understand what you are saying - non-c/non-a theology makes sense to me - i don't think there really are many arminians today - but there are a lot of calvinists - so i am interested in understanding what they say before i make any conclusions - and i don't really like to judge - i really only like to understand - even if i disagree with another person's beliefs

    God Bless you my friend
     
  11. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    Calvinism is wrong for many reasons. One reason is that it is saying God is the author of sin. John 16:8-9 says that the Spirit will reprove the world of sin because they do not believe on Jesus Christ. So if God had helped to contribute to the unbelief of people the Lord himself would be the author of sin. 1 John 3:23 says that to believe on Jesus Christ is a commandment. 1 John 3:4 defines sin as the breaking of God's law (or commandment). So again, it is wrong of certain Calvinists to claim that He forces some to not be saved.

    As for Eternal Security: As shocking as this may sound to you, this doctrine actually was clarified by Calvinism (But it originates in the Bible with John warning the brethren in his first epistle about it). While many Eternal Security proponents reject Calvinism's other 4 points, they are not aware that their own belief is fleshed out within Calvinism before the name Eternal Security came onto the scene. Whether you agree with me or not, I believe Eternal Security is wrong because it minimizes sin, and turns God's grace into a license for immorality on some level. Some will say that you can abide in lots of sin and be saved and others say it can only be one or two sins (as long as you generally live a holy life). But how is it different that a believer does a little bit of evil with God is okay vs. doing a lot of evil? Remember, it only took one sin to separate Adam and Eve from God on a spiritual level. For the lie of the devil in the Garden is still being pushed today. "Yea, ye shall not surely die." Meaning, you can break God's commands and you will not die spiritually. But I am here to tell you that we as believers should not buy into this lie. For the devil is still using this tactic today. Do not buy into it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
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  12. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Do you believe a person has a free will, to chose right from wrong, good from evil;
    to serve God rather than Satan?



    JLB
     
  13. Don Maurer

    Don Maurer Newbie

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    Here you are misrepresenting what was said in this thread. I was the one who raise the issue of the fact that you do not even want to represent Calvinism properly. I was reading the thread and noted that Apologetic Warrior was posting certain links to assist you in representing what we believe correctly. You showed no interest and even said sometime insulting about the links.

    I would enjoy discussing why you think Calvinism is biblically wrong, but I know that cannot happen since you do not know what Calvinism actually says about itself. You will repeat misrepresentations of Calvinism I will become increasingly insulted by your ignorance of Calvinism. It is better that I leave this thread now.

    There is no doubt in my mind that you have never even read one Reformed work (not even one) on how we define our own doctrines. The number of misrepresentations in what your write is astonishing. Why would you think you have any integrity with Reformed people when you misrepresent us so badly? The only conclusion that I can come to is that your not actually talking to anyone reformed. Your just trying to rally the anti-reformed faithful emotionally.

    Well, I am out. I will try to stay out of this thread.
     
  14. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 1 Timothy 4:1


    again


    19 Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20


    Jesus taught us that if a "sheep", someone who is part of Jesus flock, wanders off and becomes lost, that someone needs to go after him to bring him back.


    4 “What man of you, having a hundred sheep, if he loses one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one which is lost until he finds it? 5 And when he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance. Luke 15:4-7

    Here are some important truths in this teaching.


    A sheep can indeed become lost.

    Lost = a sinner in need of repentance. Spiritually dead to God. Eternal death
    Found = Reconciled to God. Spiritually alive to God. Eternal Life


    • ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.


    The prodigal son teaches us the same truth, with the lost person returning to God with a repentant heart.

    32 It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32




    JLB
     
  15. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    Well, the problem here is that you did not even attempt at an explanation of these verses with Scripture. You just hit the disagree button using your own opinion. Please explain these verses using God's Word.

    Thank you;
    And may God bless you.
     
  16. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

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    First, please show me where I was actually said that I was open to accepting Calvinism as a belief. Nowhere did I say that. Please find me the post where I say that.

    Second, I will PM you those 3 pieces of Scripture that refutes Calvinism (seeing that you have left this thread). Note: These pieces of Scripture were taken from my post here.

    In any event, may the Lord's love shine upon you today.
     
  17. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    Which is why false doctrine is perpetuated throughout the body of Christ.

    People do not study the scriptures, but rely on preachers to spoon feed them into complacency, with the latest "feel good", message, not realizing that there is a "stronghold" being constructed in their mind, that withstands the truth of God, and outright rejects it, in favor of the fortified belief system that is in place, within them.


    4 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, 5 casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, 6 and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 10:4-6

    • pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God



    JLB
     
  18. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    "a person?" "right from wrong?" I think that question needs a little bit better definition.
     
  19. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

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    I didn't define anything.

    I asked a simple question:

    Do you believe a person has a free will, to chose right from wrong, good from evil;
    to serve God rather than Satan?

    I think you are desperate to complicate a very simple question, to distort the issue.


    God is not the author of confusion.


    15 And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.” Joshua 24:15

    • if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve,



    JLB
     
  20. Albion

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    Thats right. But if you want an answer, you need to make clear what it is that you are asking.

    And I think that you don't understand the issue well enough to frame your question. But I will guess at what you are asking and give this answer--no unregenerate person is capable of choosing God or doing good in an absolute sense, but of course every mortal has freewill in some (other) respects and can choose between legal and illegal alternatives, kind rather than vicious ones, etc.
     
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