A Few Questions for Calvinists (Trying to figure out what you believe).

gordonhooker

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If you don't mind my asking , what bible version do you read ?

Not a problem Dave - everyday devotional reading the NRSV. For Bible study I read the passages I am studying in the KJV, NRSV, NASB, JPS, NIV, ESV and NEB/REV.
 
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gordonhooker

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OK, that's your view. There's no denying that a God who would do that would have to love unconditionally. However, the predestinarians among us would describe their idea of God in equally positive terms in that He who has no obligation to or reason for saving any of us--and all of us have sinned against him, it cannot be denied--is a God of love because he deigns to save some of us anyway!.

It's something like a theological "glass half full vs glass half empty" argument.

The only place we are in disagreement then is the predestinationists say some and me and my ilk say because of his love he will save all.
 
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Thank you again. I know I said it before, but I really do appreciate you taking the time to answering my questions.

Brother Jason, forgive me for not providing a full response and I cannot say whether I will have time to provide as adequate of a response as I would like. So many things pulling for attention, and people like my wife and son. :)

Yet, even unbelieving sinners are capable great acts of kindness. They can make free will decisions that are good for them. So I find it odd that they cannot choose to make a good decision towards God if they can do other good things. To me, that is not consistent with reality.

Good in the eyes of God and good in the eyes of man, are not one and the same. It may be shocking to our senses, but when approached about "good deeds" Jesus had the following to say...

Matt 19:16 "And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

Also, when I say God forces some to be not saved, I am saying, that if God has the ability to easily save them and He doesn't it would be morally wrong. In essence He is forcing them to be unsaved or to remain in an unsaved state. For example: If I was far out at sea on a boat and I seen 2 people in the water and they needed help with me throwing them a lifebuoy or lifering, I could choose to either:

(a) Throw them the lifebuoy and bring them on my boat (or):
(b) Refuse to help them and drive away.​

If I choose to not save them, then I am in essence enforcing that they remain lost at sea. I am forcing them to be not saved. It doesn't matter if they were already lost or not beforehand. My choice to not take action would be immoral. If I had the power to do good and yet I chose to not do good, then it would be sinful.

For Scripture says,
"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17).

I think the biggest mistake you're making with the argument above is that it makes no distinction between Creator and creation or creature. To equate the Creator with creature is a categorical error/fallacy. Also there is a world of difference between choosing not and forcing not, would you not agree?

Further, free will or not, does God not have the ability to save everyone if He so desired? Could He not create the means and conditions under which it would inevitably happen? Have you read much of the Old Testament? I only ask because in reading most of it, some parts numerous times, I have never been under the impression that God desires to save everyone.

Reality is, God chose not to save the overwhelmingly vast majority of mankind before and after Christ. He chose a people, revealed Himself to them in ways He chose not to reveal to others. What can we say? He is God and does as He pleases.

"And without faith is is impossible to please him." Heb 11:6
"For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." Ro 14:23

Hopefully more to come as time permits. God bless
 
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Also, we know that God is good, too (See Matthew 19:17);
And that God is love (1 John 4:8).

In addition, we see Jesus (Who is God) say,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37).​

So I don't see Jesus enforcing salvation on Jerusalem here. In fact, Jesus yearns for them to be saved by saying that He desires for them to be gathered like a hen protects her chicks, but the people of Jerusalem would not let allow Him (Who is God) to do so. In other words, they were thwarting the will of God here. The inhabitants of Jerusalem were choosing to remain unsaved.

So the assumption is they could have chosen Christ, but they were not willing. I totally (no pun intended) agree with the second part of the assumption, they were unwilling, Scripture tells us so, and their unwillingness is perfectly in line with their sinful nature, sinning as sinners do by nature of the case. The two points I do not agree with, is the assumption they could have chosen Christ, and that somehow they thwarted the will of God by not doing so.

After much searching I finally found a resource I had been working on a couple of years ago but never finished. Below is a very small portion of the portion of texts related to total depravity, more specifically a portion aimed to demonstrate from Scripture total inability. Please think on these things we're discussing as you read the following...

TOTAL INABILITY

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!

Psalm 22:29 All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive.

Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, “I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin”?

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Matt 7:18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

Matt 19:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

John 8:44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

2 Tim 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.


Now concerning the notion of thwarting the will of God, directly from Scripture, directly to point, a couple of quotes:

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,..............11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"

So resisting by nature of being a sinner in one sense or another, though grievous it is, is in the very least sovereignly allowed by God, and in a sense His overall will in the divine scope of all things.
 
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I have sometimes wondered, why, why did God accept Able's offering and not Cain's? From what I recall, the text really does not provide an answer to the question.

Cain's offering was not accepted because he offered the fruit of the ground (which is implied that it is not a command from God) and Abel offered the firstlings of the flock (which is implied that it was a command from God).

In Genesis 4:7, God tells Cain, how if he does good (or well), shall he not be accepted, and if he does not good, sin lies at his door and is eager to control him; But God admonishes Cain that he should have rule over his sin instead (obviously by doing what is good or right).

"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him." (Genesis 4:7).

So Cain sinned because sin lied at his door and it was now desiring to control him.
What is sin?
Sin is merely the breaking of God's law or command (1 John 3:4).
So Cain obviously broke God's command by not offering the right type of sacrifice (i.e. the firstlings of the flock).

Anyways, Genesis 4:7 is the proof that Calvinism is false. God is telling Cain (in which Scripture later implies is a person who is not saved - See Jude 1:11) that he has a choice to do either good or bad. So there is no such thing as Total Depravity happening here.

You said:
And on this note of how God views man we can read such text as, Gen 8:21 "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done." (Gen 6:5 also) The reason I bring a couple of examples into the equation is for somewhat of a small precursor to whether God can or does have extreme displeasure with individuals.

First the word "hate" is not exactly what we think it is always in Scripture. The word "hate" can have the meaning of loving less. For we are told in Scripture to hate our parents, and other family members (Luke 14:26). Obviously we are not really supposed to hate our parents. It is talking about "loving less" in relation to loving God and following Him. Remember, Jesus tells us to love our enemies (Matthew 5:44). Jesus is God; And we are to follow His example. This means that we are to follow God's example. So the word "hate" cannot mean "hate." For we are to love our enemies (Which is a characteristic of God). This makes sense because God is love (1 John 4:8); And God is not hate. Granted, this does not mean God cannot get angry at those who make wrong choices, and that He cannot judge them. We know God is long suffering towards us and is not willing that ANY should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

Second, the fact that God can get displeased with his creation is proof that God is not forcing people to be saved or not saved. For why would God be upset for their doing evil if that is the only choice that they ever had? Again, why get mad at a robot if it's programming was only murder, death, kill? It's only following it's programming and cannot help it. In fact, God even sends the wicked to the Lake of Fire for their doing evil. So okay. In your belief system this would sort of be like a master who beats his dog in anger because he has an uncontrollable pooping problem. Yet, the master knows that he could simply take the poor dog to the vet and get him the proper medical care so he doesn't lay loads of hot steamy fudge brownies upon his once beautiful white carpet.

You said:
On the rejection of reading Rom 9:13 simply as it is, I would point out other Scriptures such as Gen 27:41 "Now Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing with which his father had blessed him, and Esau said to himself, “The days of mourning for my father are approaching; then I will kill my brother Jacob.” and ask if we are to likewise interpret this figuratively? Again in Mal 1:2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” 4 If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’” 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!”

I fail to really see a positive spin concerning Esau. What I take from it is that, just because you might be an Israelite, that advantage alone, does not mean you have favor in the eyes of the Lord, nor elected, chosen for mercy and glory.

Apologies for my somewhat sloppy comments and swiss cheese thinking at least that's how I feel about them. More time and thought would produce better results.

The question then becomes, did Esau behave the way he did because God hated him, or did God hate him because of the way Esau chose to behave?

Jacob and Esau are not only individuals but they are also PEOPLE and/or NATIONS. This is important to remember in order to not read things into Romans 9 which are not stated. Romans 9 is not about individuals being elected TO BELIEVE, but it’s about a people who has sprung up from individuals, and it’s the line of Jacob which is chosen (for good reasons) to bring forth the Messiah. Most importantly it’s about a person who rejected his birthright and still expected to get it when it was time to receive the blessing. Paul made the comparison with the jews – which Romans 9 is about – who expected to inherit the Kingdom because they are born jews. We can also read from the context that God did NOT arbitrarily hate one of the twin brothers for no reason at all.

The LORD said to her, ”Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples from within you will be separated; one people will be stronger than the other, and the older will serve the younger.” (Genesis 25:23)

There is no indication of anything good or bad about either of the children at this point. The nations arising from each will be separated, and one of these nations will be stronger than the other. The nation arising from the older of the two children will at some point end up serving the nation arising from the younger. The individual Esau never served the younger. Also note that God did not hate Esau before he was born, or while he was a child. Children are neutral and they can’t choose between good and bad. Paul says that they are not all Israel which are Israel, and by that he means that children of Abraham are those who BELIEVE like he did and who don’t live as the children of the flesh, and it was also the seed of Abraham which would bring forth the Messiah through Isaac. A person is not saved just because he is born a jew and has the law, but due to his choice to trust God and show fruit.

Romans 9:6-8 says,
6 "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

According to Paul, babies are neutral and can’t do either good or bad, and Paul speaks about ”election” (which is not an election ”to believe”) and highlights that the jews should not believe that the law (works) can save them since they in that case must never break one single commandment. It’s accepting the call of God that saves a person.

Romans 9:11-12 says,
11 "(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger."

Genesis 25:27-28 says,
27 "And the boys grew: and Esau was a cunning hunter, a man of the field; and Jacob was a plain man, dwelling in tents.
28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob."

Hebrews 12:15-17 says,
15 "Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing,he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears."

Above in Hebrews we can see that Paul is warning people for not making the right decision when it comes to their lives styles, LEST they might fail of the grace of God, LEST they might be defiled and LEST they might end up like Esau who made a VERY bad choice to, among other things sold his birthright for a meal. We can see why Esau was rejected, and that is because ”he found no place of repentance”, indicating that something wasn’t right in his heart, and maybe he didn’t regret his choice to sell his birthright until he realized what was at stake and that it would slip out of his hands. Esau knew better than that but he had to accept the consequences of his actions. Esau was also known as Edom. There is a book called Obadiah and the focus of Obadiah is on Edom/Esau, and the reason God hated Esau is stated here:

Pride of heart, v. 3
Because of the violence against Jacob, v. 10
For not intervening on behalf of Jacob when that people was under attack, v. 11
For looking down on his brother in the day of his misfortune, v. 12
For entering the destroyed city and participating in the ransacking, v. 13
For ambushing their fugitives, v. 14

Obadiah 1:8-10 says,
8 "Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?
9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.
10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever."

Romans 9:13 refers back to Malachi and there we can read:

For Malachi 1:2-5 says,
2 "I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob’s brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
4 Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel."

”They”. The entire people that came from Esau are being spoken of as being hated. Thus, when Paul quotes Malachi in Romans 9, he is referring to what happened to the people, not to the individual sons. The quote ”Jacob I have loved but Esau have I hated” has to do with the nations that came from the brothers. In Obadiah, the reasons for this hatred from God are clearly shown. Did God hate Esau personally? He very well may have, and the despising of the birthright is used in Hebrews as evidence of his godlessness. This godlessness, and his marriage to pagan wives, would have affected not only his children, but their children and the children after them as well, in agreement with what we read in...

Exodus 20:5 that says,
"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them [idols], nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me"

And Amos 6:8 that says,
"The Lord GOD has sworn by himself, says the LORD the God of hosts, I abhor the excellency of Jacob, and hate his palaces: therefore will I deliver up the city with all that is in it."


Source for the written work on the latter half of my post here:
God did not hate Esau before he was born – Romans 9:13
 
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Based on what you're written, in what sense can it be said (as it does in Scripture) the elect are chosen by God? I do not see any if the final verdict is settled by man and his choices. Also I see, that if man is the final determiner of his salvation, a wee bit of a downgrading in glory going to God and in whether man has any right to boast.

How is there any boasting if the Lord is the One who saves us by His death and resurrection?
How is there any boasting if it is the Lord who can do only good through us as a part of any kind of true Sanctification? For any or all good and salvation comes from the Lord. Our choice to choose God's salvation does not lead us to boast in ourselves. That would be illogical. That would be like a man boasting in how he entirely saved himself because he grabbed on to the hand of his rescuer whereby he was pulled up the cliff (by this rescuer) to safety. A man making such a boastful claim would either be arrogant or insane. Nobody normal would do that. No glory is in the man reaching up to grab the rescuer's hand. It is pure silliness to suggest otherwise. In fact, the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus. Why? Because it was Christ that was working through their lives.

But if you need Scripture that talks about God rewarding our good choices, then here ya go:

"His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." (Matthew 25:23).

For there will be a judgment of believers and tears will be wiped away.
 
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It is doubtful you will receive any scriptures from any Calvinist's for the first question, let alone all 10.

Calvinism is a theology built upon the human reason's of man, and are not founded upon the solid rock of truth found in the Bible.


Sadly enough, the teachings of Calvinism permeate the Church today, in the subtle teachings of the "seeker friendly" and "feel good" messages being presented from the pulpits across America, in the hopes of making the congregation comfortable, in the heavily emphasized tithing and giving atmosphere of our post modern Churches.



JLB

Oh, bless your heart, all of the Westminster Standards and the Three Forms of Unity are heavily annotated with Scripture.
 
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So the assumption is they could have chosen Christ, but they were not willing. I totally (no pun intended) agree with the second part of the assumption, they were unwilling, Scripture tells us so, and their unwillingness is perfectly in line with their sinful nature, sinning as sinners do by nature of the case. The two points I do not agree with, is the assumption they could have chosen Christ, and that somehow they thwarted the will of God by not doing so.

After much searching I finally found a resource I had been working on a couple of years ago but never finished. Below is a very small portion of the portion of texts related to total depravity, more specifically a portion aimed to demonstrate from Scripture total inability. Please think on these things we're discussing as you read the following...

TOTAL INABILITY

Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!

Psalm 22:29 All the prosperous of the earth Shall eat and worship; All those who go down to the dust Shall bow before Him, Even he who cannot keep himself alive.

Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, “I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin”?

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin or the leopard its spots? Then may you also do good who are accustomed to do evil.

Matt 7:18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.

Matt 19:25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, “Who then can be saved?” 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

John 8:44You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

Romans 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

2 Tim 2:25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, 26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.


Now concerning the notion of thwarting the will of God, directly from Scripture, directly to point, a couple of quotes:

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?”

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,..............11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"

So resisting by nature of being a sinner in one sense or another, though grievous it is, is in the very least sovereignly allowed by God, and in a sense His overall will in the divine scope of all things.

I used to once believe in Total Inability (along with a super long list of verses) and I believed God regenerated us (before we chose Him). But this regeneration was based upon His foreknowledge of our free will choices of what we were going to do in the future after He regenerated us.

However, I no longer believe that way. For after close examination of the Scriptures, I have come to realize that this thinking was false. For one, there are too many verses on our free will choice to choose God or to reject Him. Two, I have come to understand certain verses better that are bent or twisted out of shape by Calvinist thinking by study and by reading many articles by fellow believers.

John 6:43-45 says,
Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

Jesus wasn’t making fun of them, but helping them to see the problem, which is especially evident at John 10:37-38. Jesus was pointing out that these who were rejecting Him, were doing so because they were not right with the Father (i.e. not saved), because those who are right with God (i.e. those who have “heard and learned from the Father”), were coming to Him, as a factor of being given and drawn by the Father. So this passage does not mean what Calvinists think that it means. The problem is that Calvinists have proof-texted it, without consideration of the context.​

Anyways, my time is limited, so to answer all the verses that you have used as a proof text for Total Inability right away would be very time consuming at the moment. I can address them later; But I also feel like I need to reply to others within this thread first, though. For it can be a thread all by itself to give a proper reply back on this one. In any event, thank you for your replies. While I disagree with your position on Calvinism strongly both biblically and on a moral level, thank you for being open about your beliefs and in being respectful.

May God's love shine upon you today.

Source Used for the indented written work within my post:
Examing Calvinism.
 
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Brother Jason, forgive me for not providing a full response and I cannot say whether I will have time to provide as adequate of a response as I would like. So many things pulling for attention, and people like my wife and son.

No need for apologies. I also have a wife and I am busy with work sometimes. So I understand. We can reply only when we can.

You said:
Good in the eyes of God and good in the eyes of man, are not one and the same. It may be shocking to our senses, but when approached about "good deeds" Jesus had the following to say...

Matt 19:16 "And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.”

On a side note: I really hate Modern Translations sometimes. On the one hand, I do find them to be very helpful and on the other hand, I just really hate them. For they delete and change what God's Word says in many places. In this instance, this particular translation left out "God" in Matthew 19:17 (Which is horrible). Here is what it says in the trusty KJV.

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17) (KJV).

Anyways, to address your post, here we go:

First, what is this verse saying: This verse states that only God is good. In an absolute sense, only God is good, but this does not imply that everyone else is absolutely evil. In addition to the two extremes, men may have some finite quality of goodness at a given time, but yet they would never be considered good, as God is absolutely good. As long as many also has additional evil qualities, then he cannot be considered "good".

Now, please consider some inconsistencies with the Calvinistic interpretation of this verse: This verse is given without qualifications; therefore, the application is unqualified and unbound, even by time. If it is assumed that this verse implies that man is absolutely evil, then man was never good, cannot now be good, and never will be good. We have no hopes of ever being with God as our sin, our absolute "un-goodness" will continue to separate us from God throughout eternity (Isaiah 59:2). This necessitates a universal and eternal damnation of mankind! Since this conclusion is absurd and contradictory with all the Bible, then the assumed Calvinistic must necessarily be false.

We are back to our question of how man ceased to be good. Man did not start sinful (Genesis 1:31; Ecclesiastes 7:29). Did God make men evil, or did He account all men evil because of one man's sin, or did all men sin and thereby individually cease to be good? (Romans 5:12)​

Source:
Responses to the Calvinist

Also, to say that good actions are not really good is a deception. Good is still done when a person does good. Just as evil actions are still evil if a person does evil. Remember God telling Cain that if you do well (or do good), will you not be accepted? (See again Genesis 4:7). For example: Imagine a man named "Rick" who helped a poor man from dying and gave him food and shelter and turned this poor man's life around for the better. Is not good done in the life of this poor man? Or was it evil that was done to this poor man? The poor man would know nothing of what you say. The poor man would testify and say that good was done to him and not evil (Regardless of Rick's motivations). The same is true if somebody did good towards you. If they were nice to you, and good to you, you would feel the goodness of that action and feel thankful (Regardless of who did it).

You said:
I think the biggest mistake you're making with the argument above is that it makes no distinction between Creator and creation or creature. To equate the Creator with creature is a categorical error/fallacy. Also there is a world of difference between choosing not and forcing not, would you not agree?

I am not in disagreement that the creature (man) has all the same exact qualities as the Creatior (God). But Scripture does say we are created in God's image and Scripture does say we are to imitate the behavior of Christ. When it comes to morals and behavior, God wants us to imitate: He says, "Be ye holy as I am holy."

You said:
Further, free will or not, does God not have the ability to save everyone if He so desired? Could He not create the means and conditions under which it would inevitably happen? Have you read much of the Old Testament? I only ask because in reading most of it, some parts numerous times, I have never been under the impression that God desires to save everyone.

Reality is, God chose not to save the overwhelmingly vast majority of mankind before and after Christ. He chose a people, revealed Himself to them in ways He chose not to reveal to others. What can we say? He is God and does as He pleases.

"And without faith is is impossible to please him." Heb 11:6
"For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." Ro 14:23

Hopefully more to come as time permits. God bless

The difference between God not interferring to save people in our real world vs. the Calvinistic Universe not interferring is vastly different. For why would God allow for free will for us to choose Him or to reject Him? It's because of love. God wants true love from his creation. True love is when two parties both agree to love each other of their own free will. It's WHY we are here! Otherwise, life is simply meaningless and God is just pulling our strings and messing with us all. Free will allows for God's prized creation (man) to love as God loves. If God just made man to love Him, that really would not be true love. For we know marriages work because both the husband and the wife choose to love each other of their own free will. A man cannot force his love upon a woman otherwise it would be something dark and twisted. Even if the man put a spell on the woman to love her, it is not real. He had to charm or trick her beyond who she really was in order to get her to love him. That is not true love. So yes; God is willing to not interfere in a our real world so as to allow His prized creation (man) to love Him in the way that He desires. For without free will choice: True love would not exist. But with something so great, there is a catch. Man also has the equal choice to reject God and do wrong things outside of His will. God is not wrong for not forcing man to be saved because God desires "true love" from His creation and is testing to see those who will have such love in Him in the end. But if God's normal way of operating is to force save people and He simply chooses not to save some (While He has the power to save), then it become immoral because God is just being randomly selective in being good. This is not the case in our universe where God allows for free will to exist because God can choose to turn evil situations into good ones like with the Story of Joseph and his brothers. God is being good because He wants true love to reign in the End after the stage of life is performed before the audience of Heaven. So no. They are in no way related.

God allows for evil in this world so that He can test those who truly do love Him. Certain Calvinists provide an alternative to God and they paint a different picture of Him that is not only unbiblical but it is immoral.
 
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FullQuiver

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I think that a non-Calvinist has to answer these questions for why they don’t believe in God’s sovereignty in salvation. Why did you accept Christ and your neighbor who heard the same message didn’t? Is it because you’re smarter than they are? Is it because you are inherently better than they are? I mean that was a really smart decision on your part, and perhaps you should take some time to recognize yourself for your cooperation when you are thanking God for sending his Son to save you. Of course, no one actually does that in their prayers. People’s theology is so much better when they’re on their knees in prayer.
 
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Calvinist?

Galatians 3
26For you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

So in that light - as a child of God

1. Do you believe that God forces some to be not saved against their will? No, it
is a choice - freewill. He knocks on everybody's door. Some will never hear/answer.

Revelation

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.

2. Do you believe Jesus died for all people - Yes - Jesus defeated all sin and death at the cross. The plan of salvation that is available through Christ Jesus was in place before creation, therefore available for all mankind.

Revelation 3
12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

2. (continued) or just for the Elect or the saved?

Elect -

Strong's Concordance
eklektos: select, by impl. favorite
Original Word: ἐκλεκτός, ή, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: eklektos
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-lek-tos')
Short Definition: chosen, elect, choice, select
Definition: chosen out, elect, choice, select, sometimes as subst: of those chosen out by God for the rendering of special service to Him (of the Hebrew race, particular Hebrews, the Messiah, and the Christians).

Romans 10:11 -

11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Strong's Concordance
Hellén: a Greek, usually a name for a Gentile
Original Word: Ἕλλην, ηνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Hellén
Phonetic Spelling: (hel'-lane)
Short Definition: a Hellene, a Greek
Definition: a Hellene, the native word for a Greek; it is, however, a term wide enough to include all Greek-speaking (i.e. educated) non-Jews.

3. Did God directly create evil? No, it was willful rebellion by Lucifer & his angels. Free will in Heaven

Revelations 12

7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

4. Does God force regenerate (i.e. to be born again) the Elect before they make a free will choice to accept Christ? No, one is born again when one exercise their free will to accept Jesus as their Savior.

John 3

3 Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

5. Does God choose the saved or unsaved based upon what He knew they were going to do? No ... He has foreknowledge of who WILL be saved ... doesn't cause the act.

Revelation 1

"I am the Alpha and the Omega--the beginning and the end," says the Lord God. "I am the one who is, who always was, and who is still to come--the Almighty One."

6. Once God saves somebody, is there no possible chance they can become unsaved? No

John 17:12 - While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. Note: He was a apostle, can’t tell me He didn’t get baptized and accept the Lord, yet betrayed Him in the end.

While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

Lucifer was a covering angel in Heaven and He willfully rebelled, along with many angels and we (mankind) were created a little lower than the angels. If "higher" beings can "lose it" then yes, we can lose it also.

Ezekiel 28

14“You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15“You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you. 16“By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned;

7. Are God's Elect saved even while they abide in unrepentant sin sometimes?
We are incapable of knowing:

1 Samuel 16

7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

Jeremiah 17

9 The heart is deceitful above all things,and desperately sick; who can understand it?
10 “I the LORD search the heart and test the mind,to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

8. Which of the 5 points of Calvinism do you believe in and can you explain them?

9. Is there such a thing called "free will"? Absolutely, versus as above

10. If there is a thing called "free will", does it always exist for the entire lifespan of a man who he is alive, mentally healthy, and conscious? Absolutely, versus as above

11. If you believe God predetermines some to be saved and some to not be saved, then what is the purpose of the Judgment? Do not believe predetermine in that way.
Which Judgment are you referring to? The saved? The unsaved?

If the saved ... then they will be going to Heaven in the First Resurrection -

Revelation 20

6Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

If unsaved then the Great White Throne Judgement. 2nd Resurrection

Revelation 20

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.13And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 14
11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever ...

Malachi 4
3 And you shall tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet, on the day when I act, says the LORD of hosts.

Matthew 13
Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age.

Mankind was “predestined” or predetermined to have a perfect eternal relationship with God in love, by their freewill. Love - True pure everlasting love can not exist without freewill.

1 John 4

13And God has given us his Spirit as proof that we live in him and he in us. 14Furthermore, we have seen with our own eyes and now testify that the Father sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 15All who confess that Jesus is the Son of God have God living in them, and they live in God. 16We know how much God loves us, and we have put our trust in his love. God is love, and all who live in love live in God, and God lives in them

Revelation 21

1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

This is why we were created in the beginning, for a freewill, loving eternal relationship with God our creator in His perfect world — WOW — and so it will be at the very end.

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!

God Bless

It sounds like you are not a Calvnist if I am understanding you correctly; I think for the most part we are in agreement. Your words on the Judgment is not exactly matching up with what I studied in the Bible; But I used to believe similar as you did. I will have to touch upon that one later in another thread or something.

Thank you for your replies.
May God bless you this fine day.
 
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Don Maurer

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In the past and in other places on this board, I've posted wall after wall of Scriptures. There is no shortage of proof texts and anyone serious about learning more about Calvinism can easily find countless resources with mountains of proof texts. Don't believe me? Start the journey at Monergism dot com. When you get back from the journey, maybe our discussion will prove more fruitful without ridiculous claims as though Reformed doctrine cannot be supported with Scripture. One can only hope it might give way to just a little more...humility.

Hello Apologetic Warrior, You might read Arminian writings to find out what Arminians say about their own beliefs. On the other hand, Arminians only read Arminians to find out what Calvinists believe. Makes it difficult, doesn't it.

Jason has already stated "While I appreciate the effort to post the links, I am not interested in reading articles on a belief that I find to be so obviously wrong on a moral level."
 
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JLB777

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In the past and in other places on this board, I've posted wall after wall of Scriptures. There is no shortage of proof texts and anyone serious about learning more about Calvinism can easily find countless resources with mountains of proof texts. Don't believe me? Start the journey at Monergism dot com. When you get back from the journey, maybe our discussion will prove more fruitful without ridiculous claims as though Reformed doctrine cannot be supported with Scripture. One can only hope it might give way to just a little more...humility.


Reading the scriptures is where truth is found.

John 3:16 alone completely annihilates Calvinism.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16




JLB
 
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JLB777

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As I wrote, it appears to be contradictory, not merely subtle.

But I'm willing to hear your explanation about how a religious approach that is often criticized as putting salvation totally on the shoulders of the individual, simply asking him to say he is saved and that's all there is to it...can be attributed to a POV (Calvinism) that makes God totally sovereign, totally in charge of people's salvation, and even (it is charged) arbitrary in making his choices.


Does God do the obeying of the Gospel for us?

17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

again


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:9-17


Please explain how it is that God does the obeying of the Gospel for some, while not obeying the Gospel for others?




JLB
 
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JLB777

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How can "seeker friendly" and "feel good" theology be laid at the doorstep of Calvinism at the same time as Calvinism is being described as God forcing something upon a person against his will? It cannot be both at once.

So you admit that Calvinism teaches that God forces people to get saved against their will?



JLB
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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"Jason0047,

let's look;

1. Do you believe that God forces some to be not saved against their will?

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.Psalm110:3

2. Do you believe Jesus died for all people or just for the Elect or the saved?

Jesus died a perfect Covenant death on behalf of all the Father gave to Him...no more, no less....Hebrews 2:9-16


3. Did God directly create evil?

God is not the author of evil, however there is nothing that comes to pass that was not ordained by Him
Isa45:;7

4. Does God force regenerate (i.e. to be born again) the Elect before they make a free will choice to accept Christ?

There is no free will whatsoever.....God effectually works salvation in His Children
13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.


6. Once God saves somebody, is there no possible chance they can become unsaved?

The word itself....explains......you cannot be saved and lost at the same time....saved means saved

7. Are God's Elect saved even while they abide in unrepentant sin sometimes?
Anyone who is actually saved, is still able to sin here and now in this body;
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


8. Which of the 5 points of Calvinism do you believe in and can you explain them?
I believe all five and can explain each


9. Is there such a thing called "free will"?
Not in the bible, not in reality. Men have self will that is not free at all. free will is a false carnal,philosophical idea that men use to try and be their own God.
It is not in the bible....Men make choices and and are free moral agents, yet their will is bound by sin. Rom6:16-21


10. If there is a thing called "free will", does it always exist for the entire lifespan of a man who he is alive, mentally healthy, and conscious?

There is not free will as stated above.You will not find one verse in the bible saying a will is free...not even in reference to God Himself, as His Holy nature does not allow for any sin or imperfection. In Heaven when glorified saints will no longer be able to sin.

11. If you believe God predetermines some to be saved and some to not be saved, then what is the purpose of the Judgment?

Predestination is only used in reference to the elect saints being conformed to the Image of The Son.....romans
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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I'm just following the discussion because I'm interested. But if you actually want to understand the answers to your questions, it might be best to visit the Calvinist's subforum, request permission to ask, and then ask no more than a few at a time. That won't allow you to argue back, if that's your aim, but you could ask for clarification.

Though iirc the time I tried that, all I got was links to books.

I'm still trying to understand a few things about Calvinism too.
Ask your strongest questions/objections...and we will try and help out by removing obstacles, and clarifying ...
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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So you admit that Calvinism teaches that God forces people to get saved against their will?



JLB
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

When God saves a sinner...they love it and are quite thankful....I have never heard of such an idea.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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"JLB777,

Does God do the obeying of the Gospel for us?

No we repent and believe the gospel when the Spirit quickens us....Eph 2:1-4


17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

Yes judgment will be 100% effective and just....all sin will be punished....the question is do you want to take your filthy works to stand on, or Jesus perfect obedience?


9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:

“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”


16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:9-17


Please explain how it is that God does the obeying of the Gospel for some, while not obeying the Gospel for others?

God does not obey for us...He does work in His people an obedience of faith rom1
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

rom16
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Jason0047,

I know. Most Calvinists I have talked with before are not all that eager or direct so as to answer my questions before.

If you are sincere they will answer....
Some do not want an answer, but rather they try and jump on words, or come up with an emotionally based caricature
 
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