A Few Questions for Calvinists (Trying to figure out what you believe).

Don Maurer

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Reading the scriptures is where truth is found.

John 3:16 alone completely annihilates Calvinism.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16

JLB
Have you ever read any Calvinist replies to anyone quoting John 3:16?
 
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Albion

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Please explain how it is that God does the obeying of the Gospel for some, while not obeying the Gospel for others?
Since we are discussing Calvinism, it has to be said that Calvinists do not claim that obeying is, in itself, what brings salvation.
 
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Albion

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So you admit that Calvinism teaches that God forces people to get saved against their will?
I did not say anything even close to that. I was merely commenting on what other members here have said about Calvinism and the totally opposite interpretations that they, taken all together, have posted.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Don Maurer,

Have you ever read any Calvinist replies to anyone quoting John 3:16?

Yes Calvinists love Jn 3:16...of course the word whosoever is not in that verse...it is actually
everyone believing and continuing on in a state of believing

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Notice it is not...everyone...
it is everyone believing
 
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Don Maurer

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Don Maurer,

Have you ever read any Calvinist replies to anyone quoting John 3:16?

Yes Calvinists love Jn 3:16...of course the word whosoever is not in that verse...it is actually
everyone believing and continuing on in a state of believing

16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

Notice it is not...everyone...
it is everyone believing
ICONO, agreed. The term "whosoever" is not an indefinite relative pronoun in that verse. It detonates a specific group of people (the ones who believe). Arminians not only misunderstand the term "whosoever" but also fail to recognize that the term "world" does not mean each and every man that ever lived.

However, my point was that JLB was quoting a verse that he is completely ignorant of the large volume of Calvinist refutation that exists.
 
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FullQuiver

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Jason0047,

I know. Most Calvinists I have talked with before are not all that eager or direct so as to answer my questions before.

If you are sincere they will answer....
Some do not want an answer, but rather they try and jump on words, or come up with an emotionally based caricature
Lol at calvinists being emotional, easy believist, etc.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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ICONO, agreed. The term "whosoever" is not an indefinite relative pronoun in that verse. It detonates a specific group of people (the ones who believe). Arminians not only misunderstand the term "whosoever" but also fail to recognize that the term "world" does not mean each and every man that ever lived.

However, my point was that JLB was quoting a verse that he is completely ignorant of the large volume of Calvinist refutation that exists.
Yes even if it is who so ever it is whosoever will believe so that's still limits the scope of the text so the emphasis is really the giving of the son that's that's the exciting thing about the text
 
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~Anastasia~

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Ask your strongest questions/objections...and we will try and help out by removing obstacles, and clarifying ...
Thank you for the invitation. I will probably do so. I do know Calvinists on CF I respect and hope we can reach underserstanding even if not agreement, perhaps.

But I really don't care for a polemical tone, so I think I'll do so myself in a separate thread, maybe in the Calvinist forum if I would be permitted to ask more deeply. I'm not much for actually arguing.

Thanks for the invitation. (And I'm not actually following this thread anymore as it seemed a bit back to be getting off track.)
 
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John Robie

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1. Do you believe that God forces some to be not saved against their will? No.
2. Do you believe Jesus died for all people or just for the Elect or the saved? The elect.
3. Did God directly create evil? No.
4. Does God force regenerate (i.e. to be born again) the Elect before they make a free will choice to accept Christ? Yes.
5. Does God choose the saved or unsaved based upon what He knew they were going to do? No
6. Once God saves somebody, is there no possible chance they can become unsaved? No chance.
7. Are God's Elect saved even while they abide in unrepentant sin sometimes? Yes.
8. Which of the 5 points of Calvinism do you believe in and can you explain them? All. Yes.
9. Is there such a thing called "free will"? Free agency, yes.
10. If there is a thing called "free will", does it always exist for the entire lifespan of a man who he is alive, mentally healthy, and conscious? Free agency for lifetime
11. If you believe God predetermines some to be saved and some to not be saved, then what is the purpose of the Judgment? To judge sin.

Please provide Scripture as a part of your answers (if you can).
A bit much for so many questions.
 
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Hello Apologetic Warrior, You might read Arminian writings to find out what Arminians say about their own beliefs. On the other hand, Arminians only read Arminians to find out what Calvinists believe. Makes it difficult, doesn't it.

Jason has already stated "While I appreciate the effort to post the links, I am not interested in reading articles on a belief that I find to be so obviously wrong on a moral level."

Hey brother Don, it's been awhile! Yeah, I think you're right, I was misled into thinking just maybe this person was interested in learning more about Calvinism, but it does not appear to be the case. I was an Arminian until around the age of 28. It is the theological framework I grew up with, learned from an early age, and held to vigorously, defending it the first few years of internet discussions/debates. You see, Reformed Theology is such a minority belief where I live, it is widely unpopular, and nearly non-existent. To the extent that I had not even heard the name "John Calvin" until I went to a Presbyterian based general college. Of course it meant nothing to me and only later did that come to mind. People really do not understand what a miracle it is that I became a Calvinist. But then again, look at where the Reformers came from, both Martin Luther and John Calvin could have went on to become very high ranking members in the Roman Church, but God had other plans for them, and here we are today.
 
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What about lost salvation and re-salvation? My life is getting BAD. In fact it's already awful. My head is a mess. I fear I am reprobate. To answer your first question, I think I committed the unpardonable sin and God is now refusing to save me against my will. My deepest longing is to know Him so I am in anguish.
 
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It always hurt me to see my Bible while I did the things I did, and still to think of Christ being hurt by my sins and angry with me burdens my soul. Sometimes I have to think about it to feel anything because I am so calloused with mostly fear and trembling, paralyzed.
 
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Hey brother Don, it's been awhile! Yeah, I think you're right, I was misled into thinking just maybe this person was interested in learning more about Calvinism, but it does not appear to be the case. I was an Arminian until around the age of 28. It is the theological framework I grew up with, learned from an early age, and held to vigorously, defending it the first few years of internet discussions/debates. You see, Reformed Theology is such a minority belief where I live, it is widely unpopular, and nearly non-existent. To the extent that I had not even heard the name "John Calvin" until I went to a Presbyterian based general college. Of course it meant nothing to me and only later did that come to mind. People really do not understand what a miracle it is that I became a Calvinist. But then again, look at where the Reformers came from, both Martin Luther and John Calvin could have went on to become very high ranking members in the Roman Church, but God had other plans for them, and here we are today.

Oh, I am interested in learning the WHY different folks (like yourself) believe the way they do in regards to Calvinism. But it was never with the intent to accept the Calvinistic belief. I have been convinced for a long time Calvinism is unbiblical and not in line with basic morality. My asking the questions was so as to reply back with a proper argument in return and to help others who struggled with this topic to make the right choice with God's Word. So thank you for helping me.
 
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Three Pieces of Scripture That Destroys Calvinism:

#1. Romans 10:21 says,
"But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

In the Calvinistic Universe, God would never desire to stretch forth his hands unto a disobedient people. God would just simply regenerate them and force save them to be saved. God would not need to have a desire by out stretching his hands to a disobedient people. He would just make them His people. So this verse does not make any sense in Calvinism.​

#2. 2 Peter 2:1 says,
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Here we see this verse say that there are false prophets and that they are denying the Lord that BOUGHT THEM. This means that God died for the sins of the entire world (Including false prophets such as these).​

#3. John 16:8-9 says,
8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

This Scripture here says that the Spirit will reprove the world of sin because they believe not on Jesus Christ. So not believing in Jesus is a sin.

But if a man or woman is not able to have faith in Christ Jesus because God did not spiritually regenerate them, then the Lord has caused them to sin (instead of a man or woman who had sinned because they decide to reject Christ of their own free will choice). For not believing in Jesus is a sin. Even 1 John 3:23 says that believing in Jesus is a commandment; And 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law (i.e. the commandment).​
 
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MDC

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Three Pieces of Scripture That Destroys Calvinism:

#1. Romans 10:21 says,
"But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

In the Calvinistic Universe, God would never desire to stretch forth his hands unto a disobedient people. God would just simply regenerate them and force save them to be saved. God would not need to have a desire by out stretching his hands to a disobedient people. He would just make them His people. So this verse does not make any sense in Calvinism.​

#2. 2 Peter 2:1 says,
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Here we see this verse say that there are false prophets and that they are denying the Lord that BOUGHT THEM. This means that God died for the sins of the entire world (Including false prophets such as these).​

#3. John 16:8-9 says,
8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

This Scripture here says that the Spirit will reprove the world of sin because they believe not on Jesus Christ. So not believing in Jesus is a sin.

But if a man or woman is not able to have faith in Christ Jesus because God did not spiritually regenerate them, then the Lord has caused them to sin (instead of a man or woman who had sinned because they decide to reject Christ of their own free will choice). For not believing in Jesus is a sin. Even 1 John 3:23 says that believing in Jesus is a commandment; And 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law (i.e. the commandment).​
No those scriptures don’t. Just your emotional opinion of what’s just in your eyes. What’s unbiblical is the false doctrine of libertarian free will of self worship. Which is none other than works based salvation that makes the cross of Christ of no value whatsoever. And nullifies the grace of God that saves. Which shows a denial of the gospel. “Calvinism” is the gospel as it relates to the doctrines of grace. Pelagianism Arminianism is synergistic works based salvation which denies The gospel of Christ
 
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Actually one Calvinist who has categorized the various different forms of Calvinism says that there are Calvinists who affirm "common grace."

You can check out his classificiations of the different levels of Calvinism here:

Types of Calvinism – A Comprehensive List

Oh, and here is a definition for "common grace":

Common grace - Wikipedia

Right right but you gave the impression of seeking answers and learning about Calvinism, not to inform about things I already know which are not relevant to the answers I provided. Those topics are two threads and a ton more reading from books there. I am a Presbyterian, I affirm the original WCF and many other Confessions which also touch on what is poorly termed "common grace". Want to know my position? Read Cornelius Van Til's book on the subject.

First, babies who die do not go to hell. They are automatically saved by Christ's sacrifice. We see David talk about the death of his unborn son and how he will see him again one day.

First, I did not give a position either way on infants whom die. Second, I am not compelled to give an answer other than I do not believe every or all infants whom die in infancy go to hell. I do hope I am wrong to think only the children of believers, the more infants the merrier and certainly makes more sense that God can regenerate an infant in the womb, rather than the notion that an unbeliever must first choose Christ before regeneration.

So your answer concerning infants does not agree with your notions of free will nor who FIRST chooses who.

Hopefully I can finish responding at least in part to your first set of replies, I do want to address your response to compatibilism.
 
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Three Pieces of Scripture That Destroys Calvinism:

#1. Romans 10:21 says,
"But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

In the Calvinistic Universe, God would never desire to stretch forth his hands unto a disobedient people. God would just simply regenerate them and force save them to be saved. God would not need to have a desire by out stretching his hands to a disobedient people. He would just make them His people. So this verse does not make any sense in Calvinism.​

#2. 2 Peter 2:1 says,
"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."

Here we see this verse say that there are false prophets and that they are denying the Lord that BOUGHT THEM. This means that God died for the sins of the entire world (Including false prophets such as these).​

#3. John 16:8-9 says,
8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;"

This Scripture here says that the Spirit will reprove the world of sin because they believe not on Jesus Christ. So not believing in Jesus is a sin.

But if a man or woman is not able to have faith in Christ Jesus because God did not spiritually regenerate them, then the Lord has caused them to sin (instead of a man or woman who had sinned because they decide to reject Christ of their own free will choice). For not believing in Jesus is a sin. Even 1 John 3:23 says that believing in Jesus is a commandment; And 1 John 3:4 says sin is transgression of the Law (i.e. the commandment).​

The Doctrines of Grace as Taught in the Gospel of John

John 6:44No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him;

John 6:65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

John 8:44 “You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do.

John 17:2 “as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.

John 17:9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 “And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

John 10:11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.

John 10:14 “I am the good shepherd; and I know My sheep, and am known by My own. 15 “As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 16 “And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.

John 10:26But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. 27 “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 “And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.

John 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” 4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?” 5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 “Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’

John 5:21 “For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.

John 6:37All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

John 6:64But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

John 6:47 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.

John 15:16You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you.
 
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What about lost salvation and re-salvation? My life is getting BAD. In fact it's already awful. My head is a mess. I fear I am reprobate. To answer your first question, I think I committed the unpardonable sin and God is now refusing to save me against my will. My deepest longing is to know Him so I am in anguish.

Hello, I feel...that you need more than answers for the mind, and more than anything recommend searching the Scriptures, start reading them daily if you're not already in the practice. For through them God speaks more clearly and cleanses our sin stained souls. To answer your question, I used to believe a person could be saved and fall away from it, and that it was possible they could be renewed, reconciled back into the faith. I did have Scriptures to support that view, however I came to a much different conclusion also through Scripture, and of course with Scriptures to support the view that once God has saved a person, He seals them with His Spirit, and will complete that work which He begun. So I do not believe a person can fall away from the faith, I do believe a Christian can go through periods in their life where sin takes such a hold in their life, that they begin to have doubts, where there once was assurance and confidence. Sin has a way of deceiving us in so many ways, it drives us into compromise after compromise and our lives spiral downward in a twisted mess. But thanks be to God that He does not leave us to our devices. If left in our sins, we would surely die. Why do these things happen to Christians? I really do not have a good answer at the moment, but perhaps someone will come along and help on this point. Although I do not know you, I have hope that you are not a reprobate, and neither have you committed the unpardonable sin, because it seems you have expressed faith in Christ, in several ways, one of them posting with a fear of God. In Scripture we read the fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge. Fear of God is to be praised, it is showing reverence for His Holy character. Also you say that your deepest longing is to know Him, that expression tells me something, I think you may be confused about God refusing to save you because you wouldn't have the will to be saved if He hadn't already saved you. Finally you are in my thoughts and prayers, I can feel your pain, more than you know.
 
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