A Few Questions for Calvinists (Trying to figure out what you believe).

gordonhooker

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I would only watch the video if I truly thought the Calvinistic video had any potential merit. But it doesn't. Think of a belief that you really don't like and then a person telling you to watch a video on that belief. For example: Would you watch a video on how it is biblical to beat your wife? Surely not. Maybe we come from different walks of life or something, but from where I come from.... that is silly. Surely our fellow CF neighbor who posted the video can give me at least one or two points from the video if they in fact watched the video themselves. Also, my time is limited. Besdes, why would I watch something that I believe teaches against God's goodness? Makes no sense. Have you ever told somebody before that you wanted to know what they believed but you were not willing to watch any videos or articles they were pushing? That would be like me trying to watch and or read propoganda from the Watch Tower Soceity. It is just not going to happen. I will talk with them, but read and or watch their stuff? No thanks. I feel the same way about Calvinism. I do not find it biblical and in line with basic morality.

Then why ask the questions in the first place?

I would suggest you just want to argue with those who respond, but I may be wrong.
 
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Albion

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God is love and reveals that to us through scripture - if you believe anything different then you are not reading scripture through the lens of love you reading it differently. If your theology does not start and end in love then I would suggest you have put on the wrong glasses through which you view theology.
True enough, but it leaves us still without a resolution of the Predestination question(s) since both sides can claim that their way shows God's love.
 
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Dave G.

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True enough, but it leaves us still without a resolution of the Predestination question(s) since both sides can claim that their way shows God's love.
What is this telling us ?
2 Timothy 1:9

New International Version
He has saved us and called us to a holy life--not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

New Living Translation
For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time--to show us his grace through Christ Jesus.

English Standard Version
who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began
 
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In other words, when you read Romans 9:1-13, you have to read it in terms of how Paul is talking to the Jews (Romans 9:3-6) and not all individuals and how he is trying to tell them that the purpose of Election of the Promises is thru the line of the Messiah with Jacob's line and not Esau's line. Romans 9:13 is not saying God literally loved Jacob and literally hated Esau as individuals (cf. Luke 14:26). Paul is using them as examples of how God was all powerful enough to know which family line to use so as to bring the Promised Messiah (i.e. Jesus). That is what "Election" here is talking about in Romans 9. It is not talking about individual "Election" but it is talking about the "Election of the Promise" or the genealogical line that Jesus would come thru. The Jews were claiming that they were saved based on being of the seed of Abraham and in keeping God's Laws. But they rejected their Messiah. God does not have to conform to old Jewish ways of thinking just because they rejected their Messiah. He will have mercy on whom He will's in the manner He will's with the Messiah that He has chosen (Which was Jesus Christ).

Hello brother, apologies for the selectiveness of this partial cherry picked response, parenting a four year old can be demanding at times. I have sometimes wondered, why, why did God accept Able's offering and not Cain's? From what I recall, the text really does not provide an answer to the question. And on this note of how God views man we can read such text as, Gen 8:21 "And when the LORD smelled the pleasing aroma, the LORD said in his heart, “I will never again curse the ground because of man, for the intention of man's heart is evil from his youth. Neither will I ever again strike down every living creature as I have done." (Gen 6:5 also) The reason I bring a couple of examples into the equation is for somewhat of a small precursor to whether God can or does have extreme displeasure with individuals. On the rejection of reading Rom 9:13 simply as it is, I would point out other Scriptures such as Gen 27:41 "Now Esau hated Jacob because of the blessing with which his father had blessed him, and Esau said to himself, “The days of mourning for my father are approaching; then I will kill my brother Jacob.” and ask if we are to likewise interpret this figuratively? Again in Mal 1:2 “I have loved you,” says the LORD. But you say, “How have you loved us?” “Is not Esau Jacob's brother?” declares the LORD. “Yet I have loved Jacob 3 but Esau I have hated. I have laid waste his hill country and left his heritage to jackals of the desert.” 4 If Edom says, “We are shattered but we will rebuild the ruins,” the LORD of hosts says, “They may build, but I will tear down, and they will be called ‘the wicked country,’ and ‘the people with whom the LORD is angry forever.’” 5 Your own eyes shall see this, and you shall say, “Great is the LORD beyond the border of Israel!”

I fail to really see a positive spin concerning Esau. What I take from it is that, just because you might be an Israelite, that advantage alone, does not mean you have favor in the eyes of the Lord, nor elected, chosen for mercy and glory.

Apologies for my somewhat sloppy comments and swiss cheese thinking at least that's how I feel about them. More time and thought would produce better results.
 
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gordonhooker

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True enough, but it leaves us still without a resolution of the Predestination question(s) since both sides can claim that their way shows God's love.

I am a universalist and a Franciscan so it does not leave me without a resolution of the Predestination question - we are all saved scripture tells us that and anyway I refuse to believe a God who is LOVE would do anything different.
 
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God is love and reveals that to us through scripture - if you believe anything different then you are not reading scripture through the lens of love you reading it differently. If your theology does not start and end in love then I would suggest you have put on the wrong glasses through which you view theology.

The primacy of love is without question. Yes God is love, but is that all God is? If we do not take into account all of the attributes of God, we end up with a different god, than the God of Scripture. We should be open honest and have some humility to confessing that yes, the God of the Old Testament is the one and same God of the New Testament, and realize that simply saying; "God is love" is falling way short of what the Scriptures tell us about God.
 
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gordonhooker

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The primacy of love is without question. Yes God is love, but is that all God is? If we do not take into account all of the attributes of God, we end up with a different god, than the God of Scripture. We should be open honest and have some humility to confessing that yes, the God of the Old Testament is the one and same God of the New Testament, and realize that simply saying; "God is love" is falling way short of what the Scriptures tell us about God.

I don't believe that the God presenting in some parts of scripture is a God seen through a lens of conditional love, not unconditional love. Step back a bit and look at the bigger picture that Jesus taught so clearly in my humble opinion. Basically how you see God is how you see everything and how you everything is how you see God. If you see humanity as totally depraved, humanity will remain totally deprave in your view. I don't believe in original sin I believe in original blessing - that is love and that is how we are in Gods image.
 
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Dave G.

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I don't believe that the God presenting in some parts of scripture is a God seen through a lens of conditional love, not unconditional love. Step back a bit and look at the bigger picture that Jesus taught so clearly in my humble opinion. Basically how you see God is how you see everything and how you everything is how you see God. If you see humanity as totally depraved, humanity will remain totally deprave in your view. I don't believe in original sin I believe in original blessing - that is love and that is how we are in Gods image.
Don't you think we kind of fell out of "original blessing" after the events of the Garden ? If you believe everyone is saved then we have a forum for nothing . Why come to Jesus ? Jesus Himself in Scripture said many would be deceived and that you only get to heaven through him. Period. He didn't say everyone can just come on in, He said narrow is the gate and few that find it. How do you resolve these things ?
 
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I don't believe that the God presenting in some parts of scripture is a God seen through a lens of conditional love, not unconditional love. Step back a bit and look at the bigger picture that Jesus taught so clearly in my humble opinion. Basically how you see God is how you see everything and how you everything is how you see God. If you see humanity as totally depraved, humanity will remain totally deprave in your view. I don't believe in original sin I believe in original blessing - that is love and that is how we are in Gods image.

It seems to me, rather than allowing Scripture to inform your views, you rather impose your views onto Scripture. I am sorry it is not a nice thing to say, and in my position, I really do not enjoy offending or conflict, but unfortunately it is a necessary aspect of reality. How I see God is from the perspective of a man, one that is not anywhere on the same playing field, I see him from the perspective as a finite creature entirely dependent on Him to have any perspective at all.
 
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gordonhooker

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Don't you think we kind of fell out of "original blessing" after the events of the Garden ? If you believe everyone is saved then we have a forum for nothing . Why come to Jesus ? Jesus Himself in Scripture said many would be deceived and that you only get to heaven through him. Period. He didn't say everyone can just come on in, He said narrow is the gate and few that find it. How do you resolve these things ?

No I don’t believe we fell out of original blessing, but I do believe people use original sin to try and rationalise what they and others a capable of doing to others, and creation itself. It is a very convenient doctrine in a dualistic reality.
 
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gordonhooker

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It seems to me, rather than allowing Scripture to inform your views, you rather impose your views onto Scripture. I am sorry it is not a nice thing to say, and in my position, I really do not enjoy offending or conflict, but unfortunately it is a necessary aspect of reality. How I see God is from the perspective of a man, one that is not anywhere on the same playing field, I see him from the perspective as a finite creature entirely dependent on Him to have any perspective at all.

Was waiting for that one it is straight out of the if you don’t agree with my reading you must be reading something into playbook. We will just have to agree to disagree.
 
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Hello brother Jason, I will attempt to answer per request, hoping the answers I give line up with Scripture and historical Calvinism, that is in agreement with the many creeds and confessions of the Reformed faith and the majority of it's adherents, while recognizing the room for some variation of disagreement, and at the same time a consistency of agreement among adherents.

Thank you again. I know I said it before, but I really do appreciate you taking the time to answering my questions.

Jason0047 said:
1. Do you believe that God forces some to be not saved against their will?
You said:
No, I do not, neither is there any need for coercion, sinners by very nature sin, it comes rather naturally.

Yet, even unbelieving sinners are capable great acts of kindness. They can make free will decisions that are good for them. So I find it odd that they cannot choose to make a good decision towards God if they can do other good things. To me, that is not consistent with reality.

Also, when I say God forces some to be not saved, I am saying, that if God has the ability to easily save them and He doesn't it would be morally wrong. In essence He is forcing them to be unsaved or to remain in an unsaved state. For example: If I was far out at sea on a boat and I seen 2 people in the water and they needed help with me throwing them a lifebuoy or lifering, I could choose to either:

(a) Throw them the lifebuoy and bring them on my boat (or):
(b) Refuse to help them and drive away.​

If I choose to not save them, then I am in essence enforcing that they remain lost at sea. I am forcing them to be not saved. It doesn't matter if they were already lost or not beforehand. My choice to not take action would be immoral. If I had the power to do good and yet I chose to not do good, then it would be sinful.

For Scripture says,
"Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin." (James 4:17).

Also, we know that God is good, too (See Matthew 19:17);
And that God is love (1 John 4:8).

In addition, we see Jesus (Who is God) say,

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me." (Matthew 23:37).​

So I don't see Jesus enforcing salvation on Jerusalem here. In fact, Jesus yearns for them to be saved by saying that He desires for them to be gathered like a hen protects her chicks, but the people of Jerusalem would not let allow Him (Who is God) to do so. In other words, they were thwarting the will of God here. The inhabitants of Jerusalem were choosing to remain unsaved.

Jason0047 said:
2. Do you believe Jesus died for all people or just for the Elect or the saved?
You said:
I believe all Calvinists will agree that Jesus' substitutionary atonement applies exclusively to the elect in Christ. The logical conclusion for the non-elect, is the blood of Christ is not on those suffering the wrath of God's judgement. There are variations of answers to this question due to the magnitude of the atonement in accomplishing all that the Father intended. It can also be said that Christ died for all kinds of people, all types of people, meaning all races, ages, gender, throughout all of the history of mankind.

Actually one Calvinist who has categorized the various different forms of Calvinism says that there are Calvinists who affirm "common grace."

You can check out his classificiations of the different levels of Calvinism here:

Types of Calvinism – A Comprehensive List

Oh, and here is a definition for "common grace":

Common grace - Wikipedia

Anyways, I believe God died for the sins of the entire world (Besides those who worship the beast in the future - Revelation 13:8, Revelation 17:8).

But we know Jesus died for everyone else in the world, though. How so?

First, babies who die do not go to hell. They are automatically saved by Christ's sacrifice. We see David talk about the death of his unborn son and how he will see him again one day.

Second, names can be blotted out of the book of life. A name being blotted out of the book of life suggests that they were once saved. This does not make any sense in the Calvinistic universe. In Calvinism: One can only go from being not in the book of life to then being placed there. However, in Revelation 3, we see that Jesus will confess a person's name before the Father and not blot out their name out of the book of life if they overcome (See Revelation 3:5). For if you were to read Revelation 3:1-4, he is telling those at Sardis to repent for He did not find their works perfect before God and their garments were defiled. The Lord only found a few in Sardis whose garments were not defiled. This is leading the reader to think that if they are like Sardis, they need to repent and get their works perfect before God and overcome, or they are not going to be saved.

Three, we see Scripture saying that Jesus died for the whole world in various different ways.

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." (Hebrews 2:9).

"He gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." (1 Timothy 2:6).

""And he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2).

"The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." (John 1:29).​

So the words, "all", "every man" "whole world, "world" are used in reference to whom Christ died for. For...

God so loved the world.... that WHOSOEVER believes in Him shall have eternal life.
It's not God so loved the world.... that WHOSEVER He regenerates in Him shall have eternal life.

The Bible does not say that.

For God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).

Jason0047 said:
3. Did God directly create evil?
You said:
No, not directly, He did create the potential for it, all while knowing what the outcome would be and sovereignly allowing it. Some occurances we might consider “evil” such as a “natural disaster”, God is in control, has control over, is not beyond His ability to control.

While it is true that God does not directly create evil, I see your belief as causing a similar dilemma. For how do you explain the fact that God chooses not to save some (reprobate) when He could have saved them? Wouldn't that mean it is in God's will for people to remain unsaved and as a result God wanted them to do evil instead of good? For does He not have power to save them and make them good instead of making them to remain as the reprobate who are evil?

Jason0047 said:
4. Does God force regenerate (i.e. to be born again) the Elect before they make a free will choice to accept Christ?
You said:
No, and the question is framed without taking into account the historical Reformed order of salvation. The fact is, we are all dead in sins and trespasses and cannot please a Holy God before regeneration. God does not force, He regenerates His chosen people that He chose before the foundation of the world according to His wondrous mercy and grace, His choice His divine prerogative. To say God "forces" suggest He converts against a person's will, but the will not in Christ is already spiritually dead and set against God. He brings to life, that which was formerly dead. If that is forcing, then so be it, I will accept it, and be thankful for it.

So on one hand you admit that this is not a forced regeneration and yet on the other hand you concede that God perhaps does force regenerate a person. Your belief here sounds contradictory, my friend.

Jason0047 said:
5. Does God choose the saved or unsaved based upon what He knew they were going to do?
You said:
Romans Chapter 9 provides the answer, Also see Ephesians Chapter 2.

Please give me specific words of a verse (Instead of general chapter numbers). Thank you.

You said:
The Biblical answer is no, God does not look through the corridors of time, hoping for volunteers. He say’s “follow me” and those that can hear, they do.

Because He force regenerates them or makes that which is dead alive; And He doesn't choose any good that they might do in the future as a part of His decision in regenerating them.
Okay. I got it.
But is this not immoral on the behalf of God to do this, though?
This means God is just randomly or mindless choosing to save some and yet allowing others to be damned (When He has the power to save them). Again, this would be like me or you not actively desiring to save somebody who was lost at sea. It would be immoral to ignore those who need help and are lost if you have the power to save them. Even if the people in the water deserved to be lost at sea, they are still humans who can seek forgiveness with the crimes that they have done and turn their life around.

Jason0047 said:
6. Once God saves somebody, is there no possible chance they can become unsaved?
You said:
No, God does not make mistakes, He does not provide salvation and leave it in the hands of sinners to foil His plans. On this note, it is entirely possible and more than possible, for people to partake in, have an exterior appearance of conversion but lack true inward conversion. Unfortunately most are self-deceived, indeed we need not look further than non-Christian religions to observe the widespread deception infecting the whole world.

There are several problems with this line of thinking here. First, if I told a person that there is no way they can be unsaved, they are going to think they have a license to sin unless I explain to them that they also have to live holy as a part of God's saving grace. Second, a believer could think he can do a little bit of sin every once a while and yet live generally holy. For after all, there are so many more worse people out there, right? We can just sort of live holy and not sell out to Christ because we got our guaranteed ticket to Heaven. Three, believers are not saved if they abide in unrepentant sin. The idea that we are saved even in our sins is turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Jesus said if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body could be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus said if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus said this to believers and not unbelievers because an unbeliever first needs to accept Christ in order to be saved. So this means that Jesus was teaching us that sin can separate us from God. So the idea that we are Once Saved Always Saved is simply not true. Four, in the story of the Prodigal Son, when the son returned home from living a prodigal life, his father said he was dead and is alive again two times. His father was of course speaking in spiritual terms. Meaning, he was dead spiritually and is alive again spiritually (Because his son was willing to repent and submit himself as a servant to his father). In addition, James 5 says,

19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20).

In other words, if a believer errs or backslides into sin and another believer converts him back to the faith, the one who brought him back should know that he helped to convert a sinner from the error of his ways and that he saved a soul from spiritual death (helping to hide a multitude of their sins). For if a faithful believer helps a backslidden believer (i.e. prodigal son) repent of his sinful ways to the Lord, then he He is forgiven. For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Jason0047 said:
Are God's Elect saved even while they abide in unrepentant sin sometimes?
You said:
Rather than answer the question, I will throw one back. Let’s take Christian Joe for example. He’s been saved and lived a godly life for most of his life. He’s not perfect but has always been the aim, to be Holy like Christ. He’s always strived to repent for every time he’s fallen short of the glory of God. One fateful morning on the way to Church service, another driver pulls out in front of him and without hardly thinking in a moment of anger he lets out a word I cannot use here. In the process of the accident, Joe loses his life almost instantly without time to repent or get it right with God. Since Christian Joe did not repent of that sin will he be thrown in the fire with the rest? Other examples that might come to mind have to do with elderly people who experience diseases effecting their mental faculties. It is difficult to envision a loving parent throwing out the baby with the dirty bath water.

But God is the give and taker of life. Death is not outside of His control. So if somebody dies, it is because God has allowed for that to happen. There are not accidental deaths with God. If God wants to make sure somebody stays alive, He can very well make that happen very easily. So if they died in unrepentant sin, that means God's judgment is upon them in a not so good way. Ananais and Sapphira lied to the Holy Ghost and they were immediately killed for doing so. They were saved before, but after having lied to the Spirit, they were judged by God and were unsaved. For a great fear fell upon the church and all who heard about it. Now, if the church knew they were safely in the arms of Jesus, then they would not be afraid because no Christian is to fear physical death. For Jesus says fear not the one who can destroy the body, but fear the One who can destroy both body and soul in Gehenna. Gehenna is the Lake of Fire. So the reason we are to fear God is because He has power to throw us into the Lake of Fire. Otherwise it makes no sense to fear God. In fact, Paul says work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Why all the trembling if it is not talking about fear? It makes no sense.
 
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Dave G.

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No I don’t believe we fell out of original blessing, but I do believe people use original sin to try and rationalise what they and others a capable of doing to others, and creation itself. It is a very convenient doctrine in a dualistic reality.
If you don't mind my asking , what bible version do you read ?
 
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Albion

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I am a universalist and a Franciscan so it does not leave me without a resolution of the Predestination question - we are all saved scripture tells us that and anyway I refuse to believe a God who is LOVE would do anything different.
OK, that's your view. There's no denying that a God who would do that would have to love unconditionally. However, the predestinarians among us would describe their idea of God in equally positive terms in that He who has no obligation to or reason for saving any of us--and all of us have sinned against him, it cannot be denied--is a God of love because he deigns to save some of us anyway!.

It's something like a theological "glass half full vs glass half empty" argument.
 
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Marvin Knox

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so when a calvinist thinks of how many people were created for destruction - and how few were created for regeneration - he justs accepts that the reasons for this are not disclosed to man - so just accept it and move on? ....Are there ever any discussions/questions by calvinists as to why God would create so many people for destruction?....thank you for helping me understand what calvinists believe
The problem of understanding why God creates any people who will end up in Hell is a problem for all to struggle with --- not just Calvinists.

The "mechanics" of the salvation process may be a totally different idea for Calvinists vs. non-Calvinists.

But the truth is that, no matter how you look at it, God creates people knowing full well that many (perhaps most) will go to Hell.

The non-Calvinist simply mumbling something over and over again about "free will" and throwing out the straw man about the Calvinist God being a cruel puppet master and such wouldn't get the non-Calvinist off the hook concerning the goodness of their own God, even if the robot and puppet charges against Calvinists were correct IMO.

The Calvinist position concerning election and the like may seem, at first glance, to make them have the bigger problem concerning God's kindness. But it may also allow them to have less of a problem when you really think through things.

Of course - if you are one of those who does not believe in Hell - this post means little to you. I get mixed up as to exactly who is a universalist and who is not.:)

To whom it may concern though - God can be shown to be as much of a nasty God for one who subscribes to non-Calvinist theology as He can for those who believe Calvinist doctrine. I.e. - one who attacks the "Calvinist God" for being a cruel God is simply whistling through a theological graveyard of their own IMO.
 
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Jason0047 said:
8. Which of the 5 points of Calvinism do you believe in and can you explain them?
All of them, I can explain, but doubt I will have adequate time anytime soon. Although each is Biblical that is based on the teachings of Scripture, these doctrines were not known as “The Five Points of Calvinism” until The Canons of Dort. They consist of a formal response to the five points of Arminian. Nearly, if not all of the doctrines of grace, can be found in one form or another in Reformed confessions before them.

I understand that it would take alot of time to answer this one. So it is not a big deal if you don't answer it. My main concern is if you believed in all 5 points or not. For I do not like to assume what somebody believes. For I have made the mistake in the past of misunderstanding what somebody believed (because I did not ask them the right questions).

Jason0047 said:
9. Is there such a thing called "free will"?
You said:
The topic of “free will” is another novel sized discussion, in fact entire books have been written on just this topic alone. Probably one of the most famous is Calvinist Jonathan Edwards book “Freedom of the will”. This is also a topic where I believe there is some room for variation of disagreement. This is also another topic where defining terms is not only helpful, but crucial. This is also a topic that involves using more than proof texts and exposition, although I would argue they hold the most weight, a bit of philosophical knowledge is extremely helpful to this topic in particular, and that is how I define my position. I am a compatibilist concerning “free will”. I would argue that only in Christ can the will be set free from the bondage of sin, and the will bound to sin is a slave to it’s desires.

It is true that only the believer can overcome the enslavement of sin in their life and walk perfectly.

As for Compatibilism:
It is defined (in the top Google search results) as:

"Compatibilism is the idea that Free Will is compatible with Determinism. Compatibilists believe that as long as our Mind is one cause in the causal chain that we can be responsible for our actions, which is reasonable. But they think every cause, including our decisions, are pre-determined."​

So do you believe that ever cause, including your decisions are pre-determined?

Jason0047 said:
10. If there is a thing called "free will", does it always exist for the entire lifespan of a man who he is alive, mentally healthy, and conscious?
You said:
I am not sure that I understand your question entirely, but I think I covered it in response to the previous question. To answer plainly, no, not the entire lifespan of a man, only after regeneration is there freedom in the will, freedom to not sin, freedom to please God, the term freedom could almost be exchanged for the term ability.

I believe that unbelievers have free will to make choices that are either good or evil. Granted, the good they do is misguided and not founded upon the faith or God's Word. They also cannot do the type of good of allowing God to work through them, either (Which is the one and only true good in this life). But unbelievers can make free will choices to do good things or evil things. They can help a person from dying or feed the poor, and love others. Yes, an unbeliever cannot be set free from the slave of sin entirely without a regeneration and without God. But that does not mean unbelievers cannot make free will choices. One great example is Genesis 4:7. God tells Cain,

"You will be accepted if you do what is right. But if you refuse to do what is right, then watch out! Sin is crouching at the door, eager to control you. But you must subdue it and be its master." (Genesis 4:7) (NLT).

Why would God have a conversation like this with Cain if he was unregenerate?
Surely Cain was not saved in the end (See Jude 1:11).

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

Jason0047 said:
11. If you believe God predetermines some to be saved and some to not be saved, then what is the purpose of the Judgment?
You said:
There are different views of “double predestination”, Romans Chapter 9 is all I need to believe on the matter (including purpose of judgement). Any Christian that believes in an omniscient God (which historical Christianity has) per the historical definition of the term, must still grapple with the fact that God knew before He created the world, that most the world would never choose Him, and that He would make them vessels of destruction. The philosophy of “free will” doesn’t turn out to be the get out of jail free card that so many seem to think it is.

Again, I am not sure you get it. It makes no sense to have a Judgment if God was the One who ultimately decides who is going to be saved and who is not going to be saved. For example: That would be like a man who created a robot who was programmed to kill and then placing that robot on trial later for killing people. If the robot had no other choice but to kill as a part of it's programming then it really is not at fault because it is just following it's programming. The man would be judging the robot for something that it had no other choice but to do. It would be illogical to judge the robot because it had no other way of changing it's situation so as to avoid such a judgment. Such a judgment would be a joke or a farce and not a real judgment.

You said:

While I appreciate the effort to post the links, I am not interested in reading articles on a belief that I find to be so obviously wrong on a moral level. I would prefer to talk here instead. So it is not one sided; And so that the truth of God's Word can shine and help others.

Anyways, may God bless you;
And I appreciate the effort you took to provide answers for me (even if I do disagree with them).

May the peace of the Lord be unto you this fine day.
 
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All right. Now post all the verses that indicate that God predestines some to salvation...so that we can compare.

God declaring the End before the beginning is not in contradiction of man's free will choice to accept God or to reject God. Believers are "Elect" (Chosen) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
(1 Peter 1:2).

Meaning, God is simply aware of what man is going to do; And He declares the Elect according to His foreknowledge (or future knowledge).
 
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God declaring the End before the beginning is not in contradiction of man's free will choice to accept God or to reject God. Believers are "Elect" (Chosen) according to the foreknowledge of God the Father.

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."
(1 Peter 1:2).

Meaning, God is simply aware of what man is going to do; And He declares the Elect according to His foreknowledge (or future knowledge).

Based on what you're written, in what sense can it be said (as it does in Scripture) the elect are chosen by God? I do not see any if the final verdict is settled by man and his choices. Also I see, that if man is the final determiner of his salvation, a wee bit of a downgrading in glory going to God and in whether man has any right to boast.
 
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It is doubtful you will receive any scriptures from any Calvinist's for the first question, let alone all 10.

In the past and in other places on this board, I've posted wall after wall of Scriptures. There is no shortage of proof texts and anyone serious about learning more about Calvinism can easily find countless resources with mountains of proof texts. Don't believe me? Start the journey at Monergism dot com. When you get back from the journey, maybe our discussion will prove more fruitful without ridiculous claims as though Reformed doctrine cannot be supported with Scripture. One can only hope it might give way to just a little more...humility.
 
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