• Welcome to Christian Forums
  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured A Few Questions for Calvinists (Trying to figure out what you believe).

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by Jason0047, Nov 30, 2017.

  1. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    +1,110
    Protestant
    Married
    No that is not what Calvinists believe.

    Exactly why God created men in the first place is a bit of a mystery to most Christians. I suppose that ultimately it was to magnify His glory. But that’s another subject isn’t it?

    The point is that God created original man with the ability to obey rather than resist God.

    Since the fall – all natural men (you and I included) have had a propensity to resist God. Anyone who resists God, in so far as responding to the gospel goes, will be judged according to their deeds. All men will fall short of the glory of God on the Day of Judgment if they insist on standing before God in their own power.

    These are beliefs held commonly between Calvinists and non-Calvinists.

    Where Calvinists part company with non-Calvinists is in the area of their confession concerning what the scriptures say concerning no man coming to the Son unless the Father draw him and all whom the Father so draws to the Son will come to Him. No one can say Jesus is Lord in a justifying way except by the Holy Spirit. The scriptures are clear about those things..

    Since the scriptures are also very clear that not everyone will come to the Son – it must be true that God does not give, draw and convict all men in the same way. Clearly not all men are, as Jesus says, “given to the Son” by the Father.

    Since all men stand guilty before God because of their individual sins according to the scriptures – God is not unjust for opening the eyes of some in this special way and leaving others to their perfectly well deserved cursed state wherein they resist the demands of the gospel and will suffer God’s judgment when they must stand before Him in their own power.

    These truths are abundantly clear from the scriptures. It’s just that Calvinists believe them and non-Calvinists, for the most part, resist them.

    Both evangelical Calvinists and evangelical non-Calvinists believe that we are justified only through faith in Christ. But only evangelical Calvinists and their kin believe that it is solely by grace that we come by that faith and not because of some inherent ability and tendency to seek God and understand and believe the things of God.

    The reason, it seems to me, that non-Calvinists resist the absolutely clear teaching of the scriptures concerning these things is two-fold. First is the inherent tendency of fallen men to resist God in general. Second is some unfounded belief that it is unfair for God to extend special grace to some and pass others by.

    They seem to have completely passed by “John’s baptism” of full identification with the condition of fallen men. No man deserves God’s grace. But non-Calvinists would seem to believe otherwise. I'm not sure what twist of logic comes into play when they believe that if God gives grace to some it must follow that all must deserve the same grace. Again - no man deserves God's grace.

    That non-Calvinists would hold it against God for extending grace to some seems to me to be just one more sin to be credited to their account on the day of judgment.

    Many Calvinists have things to correct in their usual presentation of the doctrines of grace. But these things I have outlined in this post are not among them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
    • Winner Winner x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • List
  2. Dan Brooks

    Dan Brooks Member

    197
    +75
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    1.
    John 6:44 King James Version
    44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
    Since no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, no one will come to Christ only to find that they are rejected by God for salvation, because they couldn't have turned to Christ unless the Father drew him in the first place. And everyone who does come are received into God's kingdom.
    John 6:37
    "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
    John 1:12
    "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:"
    So no one comes to Christ unless they are drawn by God, and when they are drawn by God, they do come to Him, and when they do come to Him, they are in no wise cast out, but become sons of God.

    2.
    John 10
    14 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

    15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

    So Jesus lays down His life for the sheep. And the sheep aren't just those who already believe in Him, but those who will believe in Him later.
    16 "And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."
    So Jesus' sheep are those who believe in Him and those who will believe in Him. And those who don't believe in Him, and never will believe in Him, are not His sheep.
    John 10
    24 "Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly.

    25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.

    26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

    27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
    Notice Jesus didn't say, "But ye are not of My sheep, because ye believe Me not." He said, "Ye believe Me not, because ye are not of My sheep."

    So Jesus died for His sheep, and everyone who is of His sheep either believes in Him or will believe in Him. Everyone who will never believe in Him is not of His sheep. So Jesus didn't die for the sins of those who are not His sheep.

    3.
    Isaiah 45:6-8
    6 "That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

    8 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it."

    God is declaring His sovereignty over all things: light, darkness, peace, evil, righteousness, salvation.
    Jesus is sovereign over all things as well.

    Colossians 1:13-17
    13 "Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

    16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

    17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist."

    4.
    Again, John 6:44 answers this, by saying that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. So even though we have a will, and we make decisions, the decision to come to Christ cannot be made by someone unless the Father draws him to Christ first. The drawing itself is not the regeneration, but it leads to it. You still need to ask Jesus to save you from your sins.



    Luke 18:13-15

    13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

    14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted."


    John 14:6
    6 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."
    So yes, Jesus Christ is the only way to the Father, to God, to eternal life, and you must believe on Him in order to be saved.

    Acts 16:29-31
    29 "Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

    30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

    31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."

    So while no one is able to come to Christ on their own, when they are drawn by God, they do come to Christ, and believe on Him, and are saved.

    5.
    Romans 9
    9 "For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.

    10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;

    11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth )

    12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.

    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy."

    So it isn't about anything we might do. It is all determined by God who shows mercy. If God were to make a decision about our salvation based solely on what we do, we would all be damned. No one is, nor can be good enough for salvation. If it weren't for God choosing us, drawing us, and regenerating us, no one would be saved, because no one can come to Christ on his own.

    6.
    If someone is truly saved, they cannot be unsaved at any time.
    John 10

    27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."

    If someone does seem to leave the faith, it means that they were never in the faith in the first place.
    1 John 2:19
    "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

    That's why we are told to examine ourselves, to see if we are in the faith.
    2 Corinthians 13:5
    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    One thing to ask, when examining ourselves, is, "What do we believe about Jesus? Who is He?" Because as Hebrews says,
    "But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him."
    And we have to believe that Jesus is who He said He is.
    John 8:24
    "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins."
    But those who do believe in Him have eternal life.
    John 6:47
    "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life."

    So someone who seems to have lost his salvation is shown to never have been in the faith in the first place, but someone who is truly saved, and has become a son of God by having received the Lord Jesus, is saved forever.

    7.
    Jesus spoke a parable that has been called "The Prodigal Son". (Luke 15:11-32)
    If someone who is truly saved, lives in sin temporarily, like the prodigal son did, he will always be brought to repentance, and turn back to God, like the prodigal son did. Someone who doesn't do that shows himself to not have been a son. Of course it's no excuse to live in sin. When someone is living in unrepentant sin, that's a REALLY good time for them to examine themselves, to see if they're in the faith.

    8.
    A. Total Depravity of man.
    Jeremiah 17:9
    "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
    Romans 3:10
    "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
    23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
    Mark 10:18
    "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God."
    And there are many other verses which show our utterly sinful state. It even says that we are dead in our trespasses and sins. It isn't that some people are good, and some are bad. We are all bad. And we would all be condemned if it weren't for Jesus paying the penalty of our sins.

    B. Unconditional Election.
    This was addressed earlier in Romans 9. It isn't by him that willeth, or him that runneth, but by God that sheweth mercy. Also in John 1:
    12 "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    C. Limited Atonement. That Jesus only died for His sheep.
    John 10 addresses this when Jesus says that the Pharisees didn't believe Him because they were not of His sheep. Jesus said that He laid His life down for His sheep, and that not all were of his sheep. So then, Jesus did not lay down His life for everyone, because not everyone is of His sheep. So His atonement on the cross, though it is a ransom for many, is not a ransom for all.

    D. Irresistible Grace. That when God draws a sinner to Christ, he will come to Him without refusal.

    John 6:37
    "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."

    So Jesus says that everyone the Father gives Him SHALL come to Him. They won't maybe come to Him. It's not just a possibility, it's definite that they will. And all who do are never cast out.
    This doesn't mean that someone who hears the gospel will definitely believe it and receive Jesus. Plenty of people hear the gospel and don't believe it. But when the time comes that God draws them to Christ they definitely will. Not everyone who hears the gospel believes it, but everyone who is drawn by God to Christ will believe it.
    Acts 13
    46 "Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

    47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."


    E. Perseverance of the Saints. That a true believer who has been saved will persevere unto the end of his life.
    1 John 2:19
    "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

    This is only one verse but it serves as a good proof text. If they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us. Someone who is truly saved will continue in the faith. They will persevere to the end.

    9.
    We all have a will, but we are born in sin, and under condemnation (John 3:18), and are slaves to sin (John 8:34). So our will is not free even though we have one. Our will is enslaved to sin, so that all we can do is sin. God says that even the plowing of the wicked is sin. The plowing is their work, the supposedly "good" things they do. And in Isaiah God says that even our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.
    Isaiah 64:6
    "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
    We don't have the ability to choose Christ while we are in this condition. Neither would we want to anyway. Before we are saved, we are at enmity with God.
    A dead man can't save himself, even if he could conjure up some sort of will to be saved. But it isn't by our will anyway, it's by God's will.
    John 1:13
    "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

    11.
    All sin will be dealt with. Everyone has sinned, and everyone who has not had their sins forgiven will be judged for their sins. The world is condemned already, and will be judged. If God didn't ordain people to be saved, and draw us to Christ, and cause us to believe on Him we wouldn't. No one would. As Jesus said, No one even CAN.
    Romans 9 again address this:
    18 "Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

    19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

    20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

    21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

    22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

    23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

    24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

    The whole point is that everyone is born in sin and condemned ALREADY. We aren't born with a blank slate, having the ability to choose good or evil, God or the devil, Heaven or Hell. We are all born enemies of God, and God didn't cause us to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved, we wouldn't. So it shows the unfathomable love and mercy and grace of God that He saves ANYONE, because no one deserves it, and no one would choose it if it weren't for God.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  3. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

    +546
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    For anyone that cares, do a little research on evangelism and the history of evangelistic missions of those within the Calvinist camp. Here you will find men like Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield, Arthur T. Pierson, and C.H. Spurgeon to name an extremely select few.

    Pierson may be the least known, so here is a brief biographical sketch from Wikipedia:

    Arthur Tappan Pierson (March 6, 1837 – June 3, 1911) was an American Presbyterian pastor, Christian leader, missionary and writer who preached over 13,000 sermons, wrote over fifty books, and gave Bible lectures as part of a transatlantic preaching ministry that made him famous in Scotland, England, and Korea. He was a consulting editor for the original "Scofield Reference Bible" (1909) for his friend, C. I. Scofield and was also a friend of D. L. Moody, George Müller (whose biography 'George Muller of Bristol' he wrote), Adoniram Judson Gordon, and C. H. Spurgeon, whom he succeeded in the pulpit of the Metropolitan Tabernacle, London, from 1891 to 1893. Throughout his career, Pierson filled several pulpit positions around the world as an urban pastor who cared passionately for the poor.

    Pierson was also a pioneer advocate of faith missions who was determined to see the world evangelized in his generation. Prior to 1870, there had been only about 2000 missionaries from the United States in full-time service, roughly ten percent of whom had engaged in work among Native Americans. A great movement of foreign missions began in the 1880s and accelerated into the 20th century, in some measure due to the work of Pierson.[1] He acted as the elder statesman of the student missionary movement and was the leading evangelical advocate of foreign missions in the late 19th century. After retiring, he visited Korea in 1910. His visiting established the Pierson Memorial Union Bible Institute (today Pyeongtaek University) in 1912."
     
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2017
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Optimistic Optimistic x 1
    • List
  4. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    +265
    Non-Denom
    Married

    Please provide scripture that says, "God created original man with the ability to obey rather than resist God".

    While your at it, please explain why Adam [original man] resisted God, rather than obeyed God, if he had this ability.




    JLB
     
  5. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    +265
    Non-Denom
    Married

    I'm asking -

    Do you believe a person has a free will, to chose right from wrong, good from evil;
    to serve God rather than Satan?


    And I think that you don't understand the issue well enough to frame your question. But I will guess at

    There is no issue.

    There is only the question, which you keep dodging with insulting, condescending remarks, which tells me that you don't even believe, what you claim.


    Do you believe a person has a free will, to chose right from wrong, good from evil;
    to serve God rather than Satan?


    It's yes or no.




    JLB
     
  6. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    +1,110
    Protestant
    Married
    I could tell you about the ability of Jesus (the second Adam) to obey.

    So He had to be made like His brothers in every way, that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, in order to make atonement for the sins of the people. Hebrews 2:17

    "He committed no sin, nor was deception found in his mouth" 1 Peter 2:22

    Or I could go directly to the first Adam to show that he could obey.

    “And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply…….” Genesis 1:28

    “Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain” Genesis 4:1

    “And again, she bore his brother Abel” Genesis 4:2

    “Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain” Genesis 4:25

    Or I could make the emotion and opinion based statement that God would be unjust to hold man accountable for resisting Him if he didn't have the ability to obey. But that's more of a non-Calvinist approach and I try hard not to go there.
    How about you first explain why Lucifer resisted God rather than obey God if he had the ability.

    Better yet – how about you just make your point directly without the games - since you obviously have an unorthodox theological agenda of some kind.

    I won’t be playing 20 questions with you. Please get to it. It’s your dime.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2017
  7. Apologetic_Warrior

    Apologetic_Warrior Saved by Grace through Faith

    +546
    United States
    Calvinist
    Married
    US-Republican
    I prefer the definition from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy...

    "Compatibilism offers a solution to the free will problem, which concerns a disputed incompatibility between free will and determinism. Compatibilism is the thesis that free will is compatible with determinism. Because free will is typically taken to be a necessary condition of moral responsibility, compatibilism is sometimes expressed as a thesis about the compatibility between moral responsibility and determinism." - Compatibilism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)

    ...which unlike the entry you quoted does not include the extra biased baggage of "every cause, including our decisions, are pre-determined." Which is completely unnecessary because if you check out the link from the definition above, you will see there is history of compatibilism in philosophy and different types of compatibilism. I would probably be considered a "classic compatibilist". I do not like the term "free will" because it is extremely misleading. Free from what to what? I much prefer the term "FREEDOM" because it acknowledges choice. Compatibilists do not subscribe to what is known as "hard determinism", there are differences and I'll leave it to you to learn them. Compatibilists are "soft determinists". At this point, we can hardly discuss determinism without discussing causality, at least to a point. In an attempt for brevity and clarity, I recognize no less (angels, fallen and non?) than two chains of cause. God being the uncaused cause of everything first caused. Portions of His creation were created, especially humans made in His image, to be secondary chains of causality, such that humans could be given commands and actually choose to obey or not obey. However, the first humans by disobeying, brought curse to the choices of everyone after them. As secondary chains of cause, originating from the first Causer, there is of course a link, however the freedom given to secondary causers, shifts the responsibility of first cause to secondary cause. I feel this is terribly complicated and difficult, however, when studied most of life is complicated under a microscope, ask a Scientist. This did not all sink into me overnight, it is an accumulation of years of pondering of meditating and questioning. So to answer your loaded question, yes I believe everything is pre-determined, if in no other sense than permanently settled in the omniscience of God. Does that make God the direct cause of everything? NO, by NO means. It does not follow that secondary chains of causality necessarily (by necessity) be caused by the first Causer. Finally, this is an area where I am open to disagreement, where I do not feel one hundred percent certain, but confident enough to lay out a position, even if it may be lacking in presentation and fine details. I believe in determinism and true moral responsibility, I believe they are both presented in other terms in Scripture and are compatible and harmonious.

    Might I suggest that for every passage where the word is "choose" or "choice" that non-Augustinians are reading "FREE" into the will of a choice? In other words there is a world of difference between making a choice and it being free from countless things including desires. The Scriptures are clear as a bell concerning the nature of fallen man. That fallen man can makes choices is a far cry from free will, that fallen man has freedom within the bounds of his completely sinful nature is also a far cry from what people think "free will" so commonly means.
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2017
  8. Jason0047

    Jason0047 Agent for Christ Supporter

    +2,379
    Non-Denom
    Married
    I am sorry. I am not really interested in what you believe. I merely wanted to find out what your beliefs were in regards to Calvinism so I can reply properly in return one time with Scripture. I see Calvinism as immoral and wrong on many levels. My suggestion is to pray to the Lord to show you the truth about Calvinism. Ask God to open your heart that maybe you could be wrong. For if it was good, then the moral problems I presented to you would simply not exist. But if you don't care to seek the truth with the Lord, then by all means, continue as you are and see how it will profit you in the end.

    Anyways, may God's love shine upon you today;
    And may you please be well.
     
  9. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    +265
    Non-Denom
    Married
    So far I see no scriptures that teach us that God made original man with the ability to obey rather than resist God.

    Man was created with a free will to choose.

    Lucifer also had a freewill to choose.



    JLB
     
  10. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,159
    Non-Denom
    Private
    Many people like being told what to believe. Most people are not Bereans. Takes too much time and energy when there is an easier way
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List
  11. JLB777

    JLB777 Newbie Supporter

    +265
    Non-Denom
    Married
    Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
    Matthew 7:14
     
  12. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    +1,110
    Protestant
    Married
    Of course man was created with a free will to choose. The choices were to obey or resist. Of course Lucifer had a free will to choose. The choices were to obey or resist.

    Therefore they had, as I said and which you took exception to, they had the ability to obey rather than resist God just as they also had the ability to resit rather than obey God.

    No doubt they obeyed God for a period of time before they resisted.

    Both Adam and Lucifer obeyed God after their fall as well as before their fall.

    Which, of course, shows the falsehood of the hard line belief Calvinists are often charged with that fallen men literally cannot understand God and obey Him in any way.

    I do not believe in total inability (or depravity) if it goes that far. But then - I don't know any Calvinists who believe exactly what I highlighted in the paragraph just before this one.

    As I have said from the beginning - I would need to nuance every single one of the so called 5 points in order to subscribe to them.

    You engaged me negatively when I have been saying all along what you seem to believe as well. Frankly, I'm not even sure what you are arguing about now - just as I said before.

    Tell me in plain words exactly where you think we differ on this.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
  13. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,159
    Non-Denom
    Private
    How did Lucifer/satan obey God after the fall due to his choice to resist?
     
  14. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    +1,110
    Protestant
    Married
    I have edited the last 6 words in my statement. (Look at the post again now.)

    What I was saying was that the fall was due to their choice to resist. I wouldn't want that misunderstood.

    But, assuming now that you are just asking for scripture reference on when Satan obeyed after his fall - I would remind you of his activities in the Book of Job and the limits God placed on what Satan was able to do to Job and what he was forbidden to do.

    Satan obeyed God by limiting his various attacks on Job to exclude what he was told by God to refrain from doing.
     
  15. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,159
    Non-Denom
    Private
    But Lucifer didn't have free choice to resist what God did, because God put limits on satan,.

    Satan did not "refrain". God put the halts on satan. I don't think Satan had a choice.

    My question was you said "out of satan's free will". God said no. It was outside of satans free will
     
  16. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    +1,110
    Protestant
    Married
    Your original question had to do with Lucifer's obedience not his resistance.

    It may well have been impossible for him to disobey. Who can say? But it obviously wasn't impossible for him to obey. The scriptures clearly show that he did obey.

    But again - your question to me had to do with whether Satan had the ability to obey. It did not have to do with whether or not he could disobey.

    Your explanation makes the case that Satan was unable to disobey.

    The scriptures clearly show him obeying. Whatever the source of that ability was - he obviously had it.

    By the way - your argument is getting into the absolute sovereignty of God/hard determinism position - at least when it comes to Satan.

    You're starting to sound a lot like a full on Calvinist instead of a free willer.:)
     
  17. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,159
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I didn't have a question.

    I questioned the wording of a sentence in your post and asked you to explain your theology behind it.

    You changed your statement. I never asked a question. I questioned the wording and thought there was a mistake from the get go.
     
  18. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,159
    Non-Denom
    Private
    What does if it was possible for him to disobey or not have to do with it.

    Again, I had no question. Please re-read my response and that I replied and questioned text in your post.
     
  19. ToBeLoved

    ToBeLoved Well-Known Member Supporter

    +4,159
    Non-Denom
    Private
    I am taking my stance from scripture, not from any Calvinist position.

    This is a specific situation. Satan was told he could NOT kill Job.

    So God said NO.

    Nothing to do with Calvinism. Has to do with God telling us what happened and that He told satan that there were boundaries.
     
  20. Marvin Knox

    Marvin Knox Senior Veteran

    +1,110
    Protestant
    Married
    Very well then.
    I fail to see where God setting boundaries takes away anyone's freedom to break those boundaries.

    This is reminiscent of the fruit of the tree boundary given to Adam in the garden by an order from God.

    He not only had free will to disobey. He did disobey.

    By the way - one of the false charges against Calvinists is that their saying that God decreed certain things automatically negates the free will of those involved.

    In the case of Calvinism, it is a false charge.

    But here, with you, it is absolutely what you are teaching - completely thought through by you or not.
     
Loading...