A discussion with Duvduv about prophecy

[The7thColporteur]

A discussion with Duvduv about prophecy:

Duvduv's first questions [Link 01]

My original responses [Link 02]

Duvduv's last post before this thread:

Thank you. If you think it should go into a different thread, that is fine too. I was curious because of all the failed prophecies from all sorts of "Adventist/restorationist" groups over the past 200 years. If such prophecies emerge from respected founders of the movement, how do adherents continue belonging to the group?!

Yes, let's begin with our own separate thread.

You would have to describe what you mean by "failed" in regards the "adventist" groups, and also identify which "adventist" groups you specifically refer to.

If you would like, I can speak about the Seventh-day Adventist movement, and their history, and connection to the adventist and millerite movements.

You ought to look up the name Dr. Joseph Wolff and carefully consider the events there also.

As for the founder of the Seventh-day Adventist movement, I know persons like to place a lot of emphasis on persons like James Springer White, Ellen. G. White, Joseph Bates and so on, but in truth, the founder is Jesus Christ, even in Genesis, for "the voice of the LORD God" was/is a Seventh-day Adventist [a name which encompasses Beginning unto Ending, Alpha to Omega, First to Last, Author to Finisher], and so was Adam, and Abel, and Seth, and Enoch, and Noah, and Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and Moses, and Joshua, and David, and Solomon, and Daniel and all the prophets, and John the Baptist, and Peter, James and John and the others, and Paul, and Barnabas, and so on ... down until today.

If you are referring to Daniel's prophecies, we can look at them if you would like, and see how God inteprets them for us [Genesis 40:8; 2 Peter 1:20 KJB].

 

[Duvduv]

The Jehovah's Witnesses in particular faced a number of failed prophecies from their preeminent leaders about the return of Jesus. I believe there were similar situations in other Adventists sects and among the believers in the Book of Mormon. How have they accepted these repeated failed prophecies?

 

[The7thColporteur]

The Jehovah's Witnesses in particular faced a number of failed prophecies from their preeminent leaders about the return of Jesus. ...

Indeed, there are numerous dates that have been set by the WTS, that have all come and gone. Right now they are re-configuring the 1914 generation, for obvious reasons. It was over 100 years ago, and that generation is gone.

... I believe there were similar situations in other Adventists sects ...

Again, you would have to define "Adventist sects".

I will give a for instance of an offshoot of an offshoot, the Branch Davidians [breaking off from Davidians, who broke away from the main body of SDA] with Vernon Howell [aka, self-styled, David Koresh, in Waco, TX]. He, and the poor people [generally kind, trusting people, not all, but most] that followed him became deceived by his errors, especially in the book of Revelation. He completely failed to understand the Sanctuary, which is the key to Revelation, as it is built in the structure of the 7 Branch Candlestick.

You may see that here [Link] & [Link], and thus in so failing to remain with the people of God, he had no safety, and was swallowed up by pride, and self-delusion, which allowed the devil to work through him to decive the others. He had thought that he was the only one to understand the 7 Seals, and that they were taking place all in his own day, which is of course error, and denies the very structure of Revelation itself. If he had remained with the pillar of Psalms 77:13 KJB, he would have avoided all of what happened. Of course, not everything was his fault, but a large part was. There was also very much corruption in the governmental offices that attempted to sieze him. There are several good documentaries on that, and I recommend anyone to watch them:

Waco - The Unspeakable Evil

Waco - A New Revelation

Waco - Massacre Documentary

There is even supposed to be a new one coming, though I suspect it to be skewed

Learn from history.

... and among the believers in the Book of Mormon. ...

Joseph Smith had some pretty vague prophecies, but you can find some of them here - List of prophecies of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

... How have they accepted these repeated failed prophecies?

Depends upon the individual more often than not, though in certain instances a whole body of believers will remain together, and various dissatisfied factions [for various reasons] will blow off, and either become their own, float away to other bodies of believers, or distintegrate entirely.

We can see similar events happening with the tribes of Israel, and the Jews in Christ's [Jesus] day through the Gospels, and book of Acts etc. Many had wrong ideas about the fulfillment of prophecy, and there were many factions already in the making and forming.

Once Jesus began to do things that the leadership within Jerusalem was not expecting [from their misunderstanding of the prophecies], they turned on the only fulfillment, and cast it away, thus the trial and condemnation [truly they were a condemned-nation] of Jesus by night, and the handing him over to the leading state power, the Romans for crucifying.

After the resurrection and the multitudinous witnesses and events that followed, such as in AD 70, fulfilling exactly what Jesus said would happen, many Jews could not come to grips that they had disavowed their Saviour, and began to re-interpret their own OT scriptures, entering into deep denial, even placing a curse upon Daniel's prophecies, and no longer reading certain portions of Isaiah, etc.

If a prophecy is seen to be absolutely not come to pass in the way/manner expected, the individual [or group] will do one of several things with that. Either go back to see if anything was understood incorrectly [such as the disciples did, even though they had been directly told on numerous occasions what was to happen], and if so correct it [if they are honest and sincere, desiring only to understand God's word]. Abandon the whole thing altogether. Claim the prophecy happened already in the distant past, or place it so far into the future as to never epect it to happen in their own lifetime, thus placing it out of mind.

If a time prophecy is involved, and seen to not come to pass as expected, there is a re-studying of that which led to the conclusion, and to see if there is not a place that human error [not God's error] entered.

For instance, in 1843, the millerites/early adventists, came to the time thought to be the 2nd Advent of Jesus, but when the time came and went, many were disappointed, but not as bad, because many had not had the time set in concrete, but a general time. Once the weeks went by and still nothing, people went back and studied, and saw what was missed. They were using the modern calendar, rather than the biblical one. Easy mistake to make. Thus, the seventh-month movement began to take hold and spread, and eventually a new correct time was arrived at. October 22, 1844. The Day of Atonement, as foretold in scripture, but they didn't yet have the fullness of what that meant and still had some erroneous positions about specific words in Daniel. Thus the time was correct, but because they misunderstood a few words, the event was missed, and only afterwards realized, that Jesus went from the Holy Place in Heaven to the Most Holy Place therein, rather than returning at that time. Jesus could not return until after the Day of Atonement was over and the final feast of Tabernacles came.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Joseph Smith had some pretty vague prophecies, but you can find some of them here - List of prophecies of Joseph Smith - Wikipedia

I don't know anything about the Adventist prophecies however there are those who would ridicule the Bible and Jesus for having propecies that didn't come to pass . This wik page referred to gives a list of why sometimes it appears a prophecy is failed when it has not.

1. some prophecies that critics claim have failed have actually been fulfilled;
2. some of Smith's statements have been mischaracterized as "prophecies";
3. some prophetic statements ascribed to Smith have not been verified as legitimate by either Latter Day Saint or non–Latter Day Saint historians;
4. some prophecies should be interpreted metaphorically, not literally;
5. some legitimate prophecies were conditional and did not happen because the conditions precedent to those prophesies were not satisfied; and
6. some legitimate prophecies remain unfulfilled but are expected to be fulfilled in the future.

 

[The7thColporteur]

I don't know anything about the Adventist prophecies ...

Let's get that fixed then.

Here, consider the following to begin with:

THE LOUD CRY, Revelation 14:6-12; 18:1-24

Sunday Law News - Mark of the Beast Update for 2017 - 2018

The Blueprint, Earth's Final Movie

The Forgotten Dream; Daniel

The First Angels Message of Revelation 14:6-7

The Third Angel's Message of Revelation 14:9-12

I also have some specific questions for the LDS member, on why they don't keep the 7th Day the Sabbath of the LORD Holy as all their own standard works sources say to do. I have them all documented, from the BoM, BoA, DC, Quorum, President, Joseph Smith, etc.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Does obeying the 'day' of the Sabbath effect your eternal salvation?

The Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around. During WW2 there were a group of soldiers who could only meet on Tuesday. The point of gathering each week is to partake of the sacrament and to share testimony. Doesn't really matter which day.

 

[The7thColporteur]

Does obeying the 'day' of the Sabbath effect your eternal salvation?...

Sin is sin [1 John 3:4 KJB]. And you know it. What does your own sources say in regards obedience to God's Law? Let's look and see if you are honest:

"God’s Laws Remain Constant

“Although the world has changed, the laws of God remain constant. They have not changed; they will not change. The Ten Commandments are just that—commandments. They are not suggestions. They are every bit as requisite today as they were when God gave them to the children of Israel. If we but listen, we hear the echo of God’s voice, speaking to us here and now. …

“Our code of conduct is definitive; it is not negotiable. It is found not only in the Ten Commandments but also in the Sermon on the Mount, given to us by the Savior when He walked upon the earth. It is found throughout His teachings. It is found in the words of modern revelation.

“Our Father in Heaven is the same yesterday, today, and forever. The prophet Mormon tells us that God is ‘unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity’ [Moroni 8:18]. In this world where nearly everything seems to be changing, His constancy is something on which we can rely, an anchor to which we can hold fast and be safe, lest we be swept away into uncharted waters.”" [Words of the Prophet -President Thomas S. Monson; LDS.org] - Words of the Prophet - new-era​

According to the official stance taken by the LDS church, from the official LDS.org website:

"The Ten Commandments are eternal gospel principles that are necessary for our exaltation. The Lord revealed them to Moses in ancient times (see Exodus 20:1–17), and they are also referenced in whole or in part in other books of scripture (see Matthew 19:18–19; Romans 13:9; Mosiah 12:33–36; 13:13–24; D&C 42:18–29; 59:5–13; 63:61–62). The Ten Commandments are a vital part of the gospel. Obedience to these commandments paves the way for obedience to other gospel principles. " [LDS.org, Ten Commandments] - The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints​

Notice, the offical LDS.org site, cites Exodus 20:1-17, and let us see what it says in Exodus 20:8-11 [from LDS.org; classic, or check with Internet Archives WayBack Machine for the older version of the website]:

"8 Remember the {a} sabbath day, to keep it {b} holy.

9 {a} Six days shalt thou {b} labour, and do all thy work:

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy {a} stranger that is within thy gates:

11 For in {a} six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord {b} blessed the sabbath day, and {c} hallowed it." [4th Commandment; LDS.org] – Exodus 20 or Exodus 20

Ex 20:8 [Notation] - “the {a} sabbath day” - “HEB stopping, cessation, rest (from labor). See Ex. 31:17. TG Sabbath.” Ex. 31:17 given as “17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”

Ex. 20:9 [Notation] - “{a} Six days” - “Ex. 35:2.” - Ex. 35:2 given as “2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.”

Ex. 20:11 [Notation] - “For in {a} six days” - “Ex. 31:17; Moses 2:31 (24–31).” Ex. 31:17 given as “17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.”; [LDS Book of Mormon] Moses 2:24-31.

Ex. 20:11 [Notation] - “{b} blessed the sabbath day” - “Gen. 2:3 (1–3); Mosiah 13:19; D&C 77:12; Moses 3:3.” Gen. 2:3 (1-3) given as “1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”; [LDS Book of Mormon] Mosiah 13:19 given as “19 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”; [LDS Doctrine & Covenants] D&C 77:12; [LDS Book of Mormon] Moses 3:3 given as “3 And I, God, blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my work which I, God, had created and made.”

Ex. 20:11 [Notation] - “and {c} hallowed it.” - “OR sanctified or consecrated.”​

Notice which Day that LDS.org officially cites from Scripture Exodus 20:8-11.

The 7th Day, the Sabbath of the LORD thy God, ... unchangeable, constant, as the Character of God, Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever... I change not...

 

[The7thColporteur]

Does obeying the 'day' of the Sabbath effect your eternal salvation?....

Sin is sin [1 John 3:4 KJB]. And you know it. What does your own sources say in regards obedience to God's Law? Let's look and see if you are honest:
Again notice, from official LDS.org:

"The Lord personally gave counsel to his children regarding the importance and sacredness of the Sabbath day.

He said, “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

“Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

“But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

“For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.” (Ex. 20:8–11.)

The Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it, and he has asked us to remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. It is a day for spiritual thought and growth; a day to meet with the saints and to partake of the sacrament; a special hallowed day to read the words of God as recorded in his sacred scriptures.

Fathers who disrespect that which God hallowed and fail to keep the Sabbath day holy will generally pass this sin on to their posterity. It is a sin to unhallow that which God hath hallowed. Keeping the Sabbath day holy has a hallowing effect on the soul of man, and love for God and his commandments is increased." [The Ten Commandments; Elder Bernard P. Brockbank; Assistant to the Council of the Twelve] - The Ten Commandments - ensign​

Another:

"B.

The Sabbath day was changed in the meridian dispensation.

“The Church accepts Sunday as the Christian Sabbath and proclaims the sanctity of the day. We admit without argument that under the Mosaic law the seventh day of the week, Saturday, was designated and observed as the holy day, and that the change from Saturday to Sunday was a feature of the apostolic administration following the personal ministry of Jesus Christ. Greater than the question of this day or that in the week is the actuality of the weekly Sabbath, to be observed as a day of special and particular devotion to the service of the Lord” (James E. Talmage, The Articles of Faith, 449)."- http://www.lds.org/manual/doctrines...-27-the-law-of-the-sabbath?lang=kor&clang=eng​

Notice that what they say in one place is perpetual, unalterable, and a sin to unhallow, in another place is somehow 'changed' and 'accepted' [not by Jesus they say, but by the church], but they cannot place exactly where or by who.... They even have sources which they teach are in the America's, that they kept the 7th Day, not the first day.

The argumentation of an 'apostolic' change after Jesus, is Roman Catholic doctrine...

If I asked any high rank LDS, would any of them tell me that they could not be sure which day is the "first [day] of the week" is? How then can “the 7th”, be “the first”???, how can that which is made “Holy” by God, be altered, changed and accepted by men???

"...the first day of the week, Sunday..." – Sabbath Day The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints"​

Which day does the LDS congregation celebrate "Easter"? Which day does the LDS congregation officially recognize as the day of the resurrection? They say it is the “first day of the week”, and not the 7th Day...

"The Savior was ... resurrected. The New Testament contains several accounts testifying that He rose from the tomb (see Matthew 28:1-8; Mark 16:1-14; Luke 24:1-48; John 20:1-29; 1 Corinthians 15:1-8; 2 Peter 1:16-17)." - Resurrection​

Therefore, the LDS.org clearly demonstrates which day is "the seventh day" [aka "Saturday"] and which day is the "first [day] of the week" [aka "Sunday"], and the two shall ever be separate, for the 7th Day is Holy, and the first is not...

It can be traced from Now till Jesus and back to creation...

"Elder Bruce R. McConkie (1915–85) of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles stated that Sabbath observance is an eternal principle, and he noted five occurrences in the scriptures when observance of the Sabbath day was required by the Lord:

“From the day of Adam to the Exodus from Egypt, the Sabbath commemorated the fact that Christ rested from his creative labors on the 7th day (Ex. 20:8-11).” - Keeping the Sabbath Day Holy - ensign​

"The Sabbath was a holy day before the giving of the law, even from the earliest times (cf. the account of the creation-- Gen. 2:2-3; the sacredness of the number 7; the narrative of the manna --Ex. 16:23-30; and the narrative of the man gathering sticks--Num. 15:32-36; cf. v. 34); ... for the Sabbath is an eternal principle, and would have existed from the days of Adam, whenever the gospel was on the earth among men." - Sabbath​

Jarom 1:5 Book Of Mormon: 5 And now, behold, *two hundred years had passed away, and the people of Nephi had waxed strong in the land. They observed to akeep the law of Moses and the bsabbath day holy unto the Lord. And they cprofaned not; neither did they dblaspheme. And the elaws of the land were exceedingly strict. - Jarom 1
Notation Pages for Jarom 1:5:​

A - 2 Ne. 25: 24. 24 And, notwithstanding we believe in Christ, we akeep the law of Moses, and look forward with steadfastness unto Christ, until the law shall be fulfilled. Mosiah 2: 3. 3 And they also took of the afirstlings of their flocks, that they might offer bsacrifice and cburnt dofferings eaccording to the law of Moses; Alma 30: 3. 3 Yea, and the people did observe to keep the commandments of the Lord; and they were strict in observing the aordinances of God, according to the law of Moses; for they were taught to bkeep the law of Moses until it should be fulfilled. Alma 34: 14 (13-14) 14 And behold, this is the whole ameaning of the blaw, every whit cpointing to that great and last dsacrifice; and that great and last esacrifice will be the Son of God, yea, finfinite and eternal. - Jarom 1: 5

B - Ex. 35: 2. 2 aSix days shall bwork be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a csabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to ddeath. TG Sabbath.-
Jarom 1: 5

C - TG Profanity. - Jarom 1: 5

D - TG Blasphemy - Jarom 1: 5

E - Alma 1: 1. 1 Now it came to pass that in the first year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, from this time forward, king Mosiah having agone the way of all the earth, having warred a good warfare, walking uprightly before God, leaving none to reign in his stead; nevertheless he had established blaws, and they were acknowledged by the people; therefore they were obliged to abide by the claws which he had made. - Jarom 1: 5​

Mosiah 13:16-19 Book Of Mormon: 16 Remember the asabbath day, to keep it holy. 17 Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work; 18 But the seventh day, the sabbath of the Lord thy God, thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; 19 For in asix days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. - Mosiah 13​

Notation Pages for Mosiah 13:16 -

A - Mosiah 18: 23. 23 And he commanded them that they should observe the asabbath day, and keep it holy, and also every day they should give thanks to the Lord their God. TG Sabbath. - Mosiah 13: 16​

Notation Pages for Mosiah 13:19 -

A - Gen. 1: 31. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very agood. And the evening and the morning were the bsixth day. Ex. 20: 11. 11 For in asix days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord bblessed the sabbath day, and challowed it. - Mosiah 13: 19​

 

[The7thColporteur]

Does obeying the 'day' of the Sabbath effect your eternal salvation?

The Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around. During WW2 there were a group of soldiers who could only meet on Tuesday. The point of gathering each week is to partake of the sacrament and to share testimony. Doesn't really matter which day.

Sin is sin [1 John 3:4 KJB]. And you know it. What does your own sources say in regards obedience to God's Law? Let's look and see if you are honest:

continuing...

Mosiah 18:23 Book Of Mormon: 23 And he commanded them that they should observe the asabbath day, and keep it holy, and also every day they should give thanks to the Lord their God. - Mosiah 18

Notation Page For Mosiah 18:23:

A - Ex. 35: 2. 2 aSix days shall bwork be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a csabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to ddeath. Mosiah 13: 16 (16-19) 16 Remember the asabbath day, to keep it holy. - Mosiah 18: 23​

III Nephi 18:14 Book Of Mormon: 14 Therefore blessed are ye if ye shall keep my commandments, which the Father hath commanded me that I should give unto you. - 3 Nephi 18


The Doctrine And Covenants Of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints; Section 59, #9-12: 9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself aunspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of bprayer and offer up thy csacraments upon my dholy day; 10 For verily this is a aday appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High; 11 Nevertheless thy avows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times; 12 But remember that on this, the aLord’s day, thou shalt offer thine boblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, cconfessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord. - Doctrine and Covenants 59

Notation Page for D&C; Section 59, #9, D:

D - Lev. 19: 3. 3 ¶ Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my asabbaths: I am the bLord your God. Lev. 23: 3. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the aseventh day is the bsabbath of rest, an holy cconvocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the dsabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. Alma 1: 26 (26-27) 26 And when the priests left their alabor to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man baccording to his strength. D&C 68: 29. 29 And the inhabitants of Zion shall also observe the aSabbath day to keep it holy. TG Sabbath. - Doctrine and Covenants 59: 9​

Notation Page for D&C; Section 59, #10, A:

A - Ex. 35: 2. 2 aSix days shall bwork be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a csabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to ddeath. Lev. 23: 25. 25 Ye shall do no servile awork therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. TG Rest. TG Worship. - Doctrine and Covenants 59: 10​

Notation Page for D&C; Section 59, #12, A:

A - Neh. 8: 10. 10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send aportions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this bday is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye csorry; for the joy of the Lord is your dstrength. Rev. 1: 10. 10 I was in the Spirit on the aLord’s bday, and heard behind me a great cvoice, as of a trumpet, - Doctrine and Covenants 59: 12​

The Doctrine And Covenants Of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints; Section 68, #29: 29 And the inhabitants of Zion shall also observe the aSabbath day to keep it holy. - Doctrine and Covenants 68

Notation Page for D&C; Section 68, #29:

A - Alma 1: 26 (26-27) 26 And when the priests left their alabor to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man baccording to his strength. D&C 59: 9. 9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself aunspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of bprayer and offer up thy csacraments upon my dholy day; TG Sabbath. - Doctrine and Covenants 68: 29​

 

[The7thColporteur]

Does obeying the 'day' of the Sabbath effect your eternal salvation?

The Sabbath was made for man and not the other way around. During WW2 there were a group of soldiers who could only meet on Tuesday. The point of gathering each week is to partake of the sacrament and to share testimony. Doesn't really matter which day.

Sin is sin [1 John 3:4 KJB]. And you know it. What does your own sources say in regards obedience to God's Law? Let's look and see if you are honest:

... continuing ...

The Book Of Moses [LDS]; Selections From; June - October 1830; Chapter 3:1-3: 1 Thus the aheaven and the earth were finished, and all the bhost of them. 2 And on the seventh day I, God, ended my work, and all things which I had made; and I arested on the bseventh day from all my work, and all things which I had made were finished, and I, God, saw that they were good; 3 And I, God, ablessed the seventh day, and bsanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my cwork which I, God, had created and made. - Moses 3

Notation Page for BoM[oses]; Chapter 3:2

A - Gen. 2: 2 (1-3) 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had amade; and he brested on the seventh day from all his cwork which he had made. Abr. 5: 2 (1-3) 2 And the Gods said among themselves: On the seventh time we will end our work, which we have counseled; and we will arest on the bseventh time from all our work which we have counseled. TG Rest. - Moses 3: 2

B - TG Sabbath - Moses 3: 2
​

Notation Page for BoM[oses]; Chapter 3:3

A - Ex. 20: 11. 11 For in asix days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord bblessed the sabbath day, and challowed it. Mosiah 13: 19. 19 For in asix days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. D&C 77: 12. 12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the atrumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that as God bmade the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and csanctified it, and also formed man out of the ddust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God esanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and fjudge all things, and shall gredeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the hpreparing of the way before the time of his coming. - Moses 3: 3

B - Abr. 5: 3 (1-3) 3 And the Gods concluded upon the seventh time, because that on the seventh time they would arest from all their bworks which they (the Gods) counseled among themselves to form; and csanctified it. And thus were their decisions at the time that they counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth. - Moses 3: 3

C - Ex. 31: 15 (14-15) 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of arest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any bwork in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Mosiah 13: 18 (16-19) 18 But the seventh day, the sabbath of the Lord thy God, thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; - Moses 3: 3
​

The Book Of Abraham; Translated From The Papyrus, By Joseph Smith, Chapter 5:1-3: 1 And thus we will finish the heavens and the earth, and all the ahosts of them. 2 And the Gods said among themselves: On the seventh time we will end our work, which we have counseled; and we will arest on the bseventh time from all our work which we have counseled. 3 And the Gods concluded upon the seventh time, because that on the seventh time they would arest from all their bworks which they (the Gods) counseled among themselves to form; and csanctified it. And thus were their decisions at the time that they counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth. - Abraham 5

Notation Page for BoA; Chapter 5:2

A - TG Rest. - Abraham 5: 2

B - TG Sabbath - Abraham 5: 2
​

Notation Page for BoA; Chapter 5:3:

A - Ex. 20: 8 (8-11) 8 Remember the asabbath day, to keep it bholy. - Abraham 5: 3

B - Ex. 31: 15 (15-16) 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of arest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any bwork in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Mosiah 13: 18 (16-19) 18 But the seventh day, the sabbath of the Lord thy God, thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; - Abraham 5: 3

C - Mosiah 13: 19 (16-19) 19 For in asix days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. D&C 77: 12. 12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the atrumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that as God bmade the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and csanctified it, and also formed man out of the ddust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God esanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and fjudge all things, and shall gredeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the hpreparing of the way before the time of his coming. - Abraham 5: 3

​

How honest are you? Are you willing to die for truth? Or are you willing to turn a blind eye like all the rest? Life and death. And you know it.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Sin is sin [1 John 3:4 KJB]. And you know it. What does your own sources say in regards obedience to God's Law? Let's look and see if you are honest:

... continuing ...

The Book Of Moses [LDS]; Selections From; June - October 1830; Chapter 3:1-3: 1 Thus the aheaven and the earth were finished, and all the bhost of them. 2 And on the seventh day I, God, ended my work, and all things which I had made; and I arested on the bseventh day from all my work, and all things which I had made were finished, and I, God, saw that they were good; 3 And I, God, ablessed the seventh day, and bsanctified it; because that in it I had rested from all my cwork which I, God, had created and made. - Moses 3

Notation Page for BoM[oses]; Chapter 3:2

A - Gen. 2: 2 (1-3) 2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had amade; and he brested on the seventh day from all his cwork which he had made. Abr. 5: 2 (1-3) 2 And the Gods said among themselves: On the seventh time we will end our work, which we have counseled; and we will arest on the bseventh time from all our work which we have counseled. TG Rest. - Moses 3: 2

B - TG Sabbath - Moses 3: 2
​

Notation Page for BoM[oses]; Chapter 3:3

A - Ex. 20: 11. 11 For in asix days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord bblessed the sabbath day, and challowed it. Mosiah 13: 19. 19 For in asix days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. D&C 77: 12. 12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the atrumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that as God bmade the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and csanctified it, and also formed man out of the ddust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God esanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and fjudge all things, and shall gredeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the hpreparing of the way before the time of his coming. - Moses 3: 3

B - Abr. 5: 3 (1-3) 3 And the Gods concluded upon the seventh time, because that on the seventh time they would arest from all their bworks which they (the Gods) counseled among themselves to form; and csanctified it. And thus were their decisions at the time that they counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth. - Moses 3: 3

C - Ex. 31: 15 (14-15) 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of arest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any bwork in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Mosiah 13: 18 (16-19) 18 But the seventh day, the sabbath of the Lord thy God, thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; - Moses 3: 3
​

The Book Of Abraham; Translated From The Papyrus, By Joseph Smith, Chapter 5:1-3: 1 And thus we will finish the heavens and the earth, and all the ahosts of them. 2 And the Gods said among themselves: On the seventh time we will end our work, which we have counseled; and we will arest on the bseventh time from all our work which we have counseled. 3 And the Gods concluded upon the seventh time, because that on the seventh time they would arest from all their bworks which they (the Gods) counseled among themselves to form; and csanctified it. And thus were their decisions at the time that they counseled among themselves to form the heavens and the earth. - Abraham 5

Notation Page for BoA; Chapter 5:2

A - TG Rest. - Abraham 5: 2

B - TG Sabbath - Abraham 5: 2
​

Notation Page for BoA; Chapter 5:3:

A - Ex. 20: 8 (8-11) 8 Remember the asabbath day, to keep it bholy. - Abraham 5: 3

B - Ex. 31: 15 (15-16) 15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of arest, holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any bwork in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Mosiah 13: 18 (16-19) 18 But the seventh day, the sabbath of the Lord thy God, thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; - Abraham 5: 3

C - Mosiah 13: 19 (16-19) 19 For in asix days the Lord made heaven and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is; wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it. D&C 77: 12. 12 Q. What are we to understand by the sounding of the atrumpets, mentioned in the 8th chapter of Revelation? A. We are to understand that as God bmade the world in six days, and on the seventh day he finished his work, and csanctified it, and also formed man out of the ddust of the earth, even so, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years will the Lord God esanctify the earth, and complete the salvation of man, and fjudge all things, and shall gredeem all things, except that which he hath not put into his power, when he shall have sealed all things, unto the end of all things; and the sounding of the trumpets of the seven angels are the preparing and finishing of his work, in the beginning of the seventh thousand years—the hpreparing of the way before the time of his coming. - Abraham 5: 3

​

How honest are you? Are you willing to die for truth? Or are you willing to turn a blind eye like all the rest? Life and death. And you know it.

Most everything you quoted there is from pre-Christ, or while the writer is living under the Law of Moses. I'd have to double check but I believe all the D&C references speak of the Lord's Day or the Lord's Holy Day meaning the day of his resurrection, Sunday. In Mormon speak the phrase 'Sabbath day' has become synonymous with the Lord's Day or Sunday.

We also think of it in the terms of blessings rather than in terms of sinning. There are blessings we receive by keeping the Sabbath day. We renew our covenants through the sacrament and receive forgiveness of sins, we strength our testimonies, His spirit is renewed, etc.

 

[The7thColporteur]

Most everything you quoted there is from pre-Christ, or while the writer is living under the Law of Moses. ...

You're not being honest with what was directly cited before you.

The first quotation is from LDS "Prophet" President Thomas S. Monson, "words of the [LDS] Prophet", and it says, "Although the world has changed, the laws of God remain constant. They have not changed; they will not change. The Ten Commandments are just that—commandments. They are not suggestions. They are every bit as requisite today as they were when God gave them to the children of Israel. ...", and when God gave the Ten Commandments to the children of Israel, it clearly says in Exodus 20:10-11, "the seventh day".

That has nothing to do with "pre-Christ" and you know it, for it was Jesus which gave those Ten Commandments at Mt. Sinai to the children of Israel. Be honest.

...I'd have to double check but I believe all the D&C references ...

You do not have to double check anything, as I cited the references clearly before you, and thus again, notice that the line "9" and notation "d", which says, "D - Lev. 19: 3. 3 ¶ Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my asabbaths: I am the bLord your God. Lev. 23: 3. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the aseventh day is the bsabbath of rest, an holy cconvocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the dsabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings." & notice line "10", which says "a day appointed", with refernce to notation "a", links to "Notation Page for D&C; Section 59, #10, A:", and clearly says "A - Ex. 35: 2. 2 aSix days shall bwork be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a csabbath of rest to the Lord"; & finally again, line "12", notation "a", references "Neh. 8, 10" and Revelatin 1:10, which is the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the LORD thy God:

"... The Doctrine And Covenants Of The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter-day Saints; Section 59, #9-12: 9 And that thou mayest more fully keep thyself aunspotted from the world, thou shalt go to the house of bprayer and offer up thy csacraments upon my dholy day; 10 For verily this is a aday appointed unto you to rest from your labors, and to pay thy devotions unto the Most High; 11 Nevertheless thy avows shall be offered up in righteousness on all days and at all times; 12 But remember that on this, the aLord’s day, thou shalt offer thine boblations and thy sacraments unto the Most High, cconfessing thy sins unto thy brethren, and before the Lord. - Doctrine and Covenants 59

Notation Page for D&C; Section 59, #9, D:

D - Lev. 19: 3. 3 ¶ Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my asabbaths: I am the bLord your God. Lev. 23: 3. 3 Six days shall work be done: but the aseventh day is the bsabbath of rest, an holy cconvocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the dsabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. Alma 1: 26 (26-27) 26 And when the priests left their alabor to impart the word of God unto the people, the people also left their labors to hear the word of God. And when the priest had imparted unto them the word of God they all returned again diligently unto their labors; and the priest, not esteeming himself above his hearers, for the preacher was no better than the hearer, neither was the teacher any better than the learner; and thus they were all equal, and they did all labor, every man baccording to his strength. D&C 68: 29. 29 And the inhabitants of Zion shall also observe the aSabbath day to keep it holy. TG Sabbath. - Doctrine and Covenants 59: 9
​

Notation Page for D&C; Section 59, #10, A:

A - Ex. 35: 2. 2 aSix days shall bwork be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a csabbath of rest to the Lord: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to ddeath. Lev. 23: 25. 25 Ye shall do no servile awork therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. TG Rest. TG Worship. - Doctrine and Covenants 59: 10
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Notation Page for D&C; Section 59, #12, A:

A - Neh. 8: 10. 10 Then he said unto them, Go your way, eat the fat, and drink the sweet, and send aportions unto them for whom nothing is prepared: for this bday is holy unto our Lord: neither be ye csorry; for the joy of the Lord is your dstrength. Rev. 1: 10. 10 I was in the Spirit on the aLord’s bday, and heard behind me a great cvoice, as of a trumpet, - Doctrine and Covenants 59: 12 ..."​

You can say that the "Lord's day" is 'the first day' all you want, but you have no scripture [KJB], no standard LDS source which teaches that. You have to appeal to the Roman Catholic doctrine of an apostolic change [even though elsewhere your own 'prophets' teach that God's law cannot change and will never change], but again, you cannot say where this change was made or by whom, as even your own sources teach, that those whom you say were in America, kept the seventh day. Why then do you not follow what your own "prophet" and sources say? You ought to start a reformation, as it is life and death, and again, you know it.

... speak of the Lord's Day or the Lord's Holy Day ...

Which is the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the LORD, in Isaiah 58:13 he calls it "My holy day", and in Mark 2:27, Jesus said that he is "LORD of the Sabbath", and in Exodus 20, it is called the "sabbath of the LORD thy God", etc.

... meaning the day of his resurrection, Sunday. ...

That is not LDS, that's Roman Catholicism's nonsense, see for yourself - Sunday Fraud: Church "Fathers" on the Lord's Day

Rome's Challenge
ROME'S CHALLENGE - WHY DO PROTESTANTS KEEP SUNDAY?

...In Mormon speak the phrase 'Sabbath day' has become synonymous with the Lord's Day or Sunday....

I understand the LDS hypocrisy in this matter, but that doesn't explain what your sources actually say and teach. Again, Sunday is the 'first day', and you know it, and the Sabbath is "the seventh day" and you know it. Your own sources show you the differnce between them.

...We also think of it in the terms of blessings rather than in terms of sinning. ...

Do not attempt to deceive me, I know better [Link], "Romans 3:23; Romans 6:23; LDS - Alma 5:41–42; Alma 11:37; Helaman 5:10–11; D&C 82:1–3; D&C 88:34–35":

"... To commit sin is to willfully disobey God's commandments or to fail to act righteously despite a knowledge of the truth (see James 4:17). ..." - Sin
​

...There are blessings we receive by keeping the Sabbath day. We renew our covenants through the sacrament and receive forgiveness of sins, we strength our testimonies, His spirit is renewed, etc.

You cannot be blessed in your sins, and you know it.

 

[withwonderingawe]

I feel sorry for you.

I feel sorry for you because the god you worship is a monster, try ever which to condemn his children.

The God I worship is a loving kind Father always reaching out to save his children.

 

[The7thColporteur]

I feel sorry for you.

I feel sorry for you because the god you worship is a monster, try ever which to condemn his children.

The God I worship is a loving kind Father always reaching out to save his children.

Save them from their sins [Matthew 1:21; 1 John 3:4 KJB]. It is why the Jesus I know, and the Jesus you know are not the same person, and you would agree with me. Would you blame God for your rebellion and excuses against His perfect eternal Law?