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A dilemma for Calvinists

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Eucharistic Adoration, May 15, 2009.

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  1. CmRoddy

    CmRoddy Pre-Med Student

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    So, the Biblical teaching that nothing we do can save us (even believing according to James 2:19) is a bad thing? God elects us based on His will (Eph. 1:5), but this election results in our salvation manifesting itself through the faith that Christ authored (Heb. 12:2).

    If you want to keep holding to this semi-pelagian view, you have to deny that Christ is the author and perfecter of faith.

    As I said, you have not responded to my post and you clearly don't understand what I wrote.
     
  2. Eucharistic Adoration

    Eucharistic Adoration Member

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  3. ittarter

    ittarter Non-Metaphysical Christian Critic

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    In fact, they change the point fundamentally. I will briefly summarize.

    Jesus NEVER says that God CHOOSES us based on our actions. He says that UNLESS we obey/endure, we will not be SAVED.

    You cannot simply collapse various categories into one. You're making the same mistake that non-Trinitarians make when they critique that doctrine. One person vs. one essence ... "It's the same thing!!" they say.

    Well, you must explain why they are the same. I have explained why they are different. Now it is up to you to reciprocate.


    They do? Then I'm sure it will be very easy for you to provide a reference or link to an out-spoken or well-spoken Calvinist who says such things.

    The main confusion remains a failure to distinguish between multiple categories.
     
  4. Eucharistic Adoration

    Eucharistic Adoration Member

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  5. ittarter

    ittarter Non-Metaphysical Christian Critic

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  6. Eucharistic Adoration

    Eucharistic Adoration Member

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  7. ittarter

    ittarter Non-Metaphysical Christian Critic

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    No, I didn't. Perhaps you confused me with someone else. I asked that you explain why people shouldn't distinguish between the categories of election and salvation. You have not yet provided me with a single reason for doing so.

    I didn't tell you my beliefs. You don't know my beliefs. We are discussing the beliefs of Calvinists. I have already stated that I am not one. There's not yet any reason to get preachy.

    If this is the extent of the thought you are willing to put out to respond to my thoughts, then I will no longer continue to post on this thread.

    This seems to be a very confusing and emotional issue for you. If it is, you might consider being silent on it for, say, a year, just keeping your eyes and ears open, and try to learn something new that might provide an avenue for new thoughts. And stay away from the Soteriology forum. It will only aggravate you. Do some research and find some scholarly material that doesn't take a side, just discusses it or suggests non-polarized ways of dealing with the controversy.

    Shalom, friend. I wish you well.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2009
  8. oworm

    oworm Veteran

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    In Post 45 the statement was made that;
    To which you responded in Post 49 with
    But then in Post 60 you said
    This is one of the reasons I stopped debating in the soteriology forum.
     
  9. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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    Nope, but that's not the point. To inject someone else's point into another writer doesn't deprive the original writer of relevance.

    Reliance on Jesus Christ is different from believing that God is one. Forcing every Apostle to say the same thing deprives most Apostles of the important points they're making.

    It's often called eisegesis, and each time it's used it deprives the Scripture of stating a truth.

    At this point we've got an accumulation of points -- that those who are born of God persevere, that those who are born of God believe, that those who are born of God obey, and that those who are not born of God are not spiritual.

    The original dilemma's been solved. It doesn't have to do with James' comparison of "belief about" and "belief in". It has to do with the One Who acts first. The rest is result.
     
  10. Hismessenger

    Hismessenger Senior Member

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    As I posted earlier, it isn't a doctrine but an understanding of the nature of and purpose for the creation.

    Look at chapter 12 of Job, verses 12 to the end;

    Now for those who say that Calvin was wrong, tell us what can man do against what is written above. Can He choose to do other than what is ordained. And can His choice cause things to change from what God has ordained them to be. We must recognize our place and that is as a possession of the creator here to do the bidding of Him who purposed us from the beginning. This is what Calvin understood and it is truth that most can seem to grasp. To let God be what you can't deem him to be for he is who he is and we have no say in that.

    hismessenger
     
  11. heymikey80

    heymikey80 Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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    It's useful to other people on the thread to gain insight from what you've been posting, even if it's not particularly useful to EA.
     
  12. ittarter

    ittarter Non-Metaphysical Christian Critic

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    I appreciate the vote of confidence :)
     
  13. Eucharistic Adoration

    Eucharistic Adoration Member

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    Since God wants all men to be saved, he has sent us help to make us turn to him:


    John 16
    7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
     
  14. Eucharistic Adoration

    Eucharistic Adoration Member

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    You think in such a tiny box it is difficult to break through.

    Why must we be obedient?
     
  15. oworm

    oworm Veteran

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    In Post 45 the statement was made that;
    To which you responded in Post 49 with
    But then in Post 60 you said
    This is one of the reasons I stopped debating in the soteriology forum.
     
  16. cygnusx1

    cygnusx1 Jacob the twister.....

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    Originally Posted by hlaltimus [​IMG] Hummm...Then why is faith found nowhere in hell? If faith is not a divinely imparted gift, but an inherent ability, then all of the damned demons, men and women in hell better get busy and bail themselves out by faith since "All things are possible to him who believes." Faith is to be found nowhere in hell for the very reason that it is a gift bestowed upon by God and He has denied them this grace there as they never truly sought for the gift while they were here.
     
  17. Eucharistic Adoration

    Eucharistic Adoration Member

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    It is perfectly clear to me.

    What is your issue with those statements?

    Here they are:

    by the grace of God we are enabled to obey.
    Obedience is our response to God's grace.

    Grace saves us by enabling us to obey.




     
  18. Charis kai Dunamis

    Charis kai Dunamis χάρις καὶ δύναμις

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    EARN???

    Clearly you do not understand the Gospel.
     
  19. Eucharistic Adoration

    Eucharistic Adoration Member

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    So your answer is.......NOTHING!

    Back to the question at hand:

    Gal 6
    7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.


    Is a harvest something we earn?

    Of course it is. We can earn a harvest and still recognize that it is only possible to earn a harvest thanks to the gifts of the earth, seeds, and life, etc.

    We can't save ourselves, but we still must participate in God's grace.
     
  20. Charis kai Dunamis

    Charis kai Dunamis χάρις καὶ δύναμις

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    It ceases to become grace if we must earn it.
     
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