A dilemma for Calvinists

[CmRoddy]

EARN???

Clearly you do not understand the Gospel.

Rome has never understood the Gospel and has been teaching a false Gospel for centuries...

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

It ceases to become grace if we must earn it.

God's grace is a free gift. We don't have to earn it.

However, if we don't respond to God's grace we won't go to heaven.

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

God's grace is a free gift. We don't have to earn it.

However, if we don't respond to God's grace we won't go to heaven.

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

For by grace you have been saved.

 

[CmRoddy]

God's grace is a free gift. We don't have to earn it.

However, if we don't respond to God's grace we won't go to heaven.

7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

How does one respond? How does one have the ability to respond?

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

For by grace you have been saved.

For those who will be saved it will be thanks to grace.


Not even Paul claimed that his salvation was completed, however.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

How does one respond? How does one have the ability to respond?

All have been made alive in Christ thanks to God's free gift of grace as conveyed by the sacrifice of Jesus. Now we must accept this free gift or reject it:


For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22


Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18

Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be driven out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.
John 12:31-32


My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; and he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2:1-2

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

For those who will be saved it will be thanks to grace.

Not even Paul claimed that his salvation was completed, however.

In the actuation of it no... in the fixation of history according to the mind of God yes...

Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

All words in bold are events that have yet to take place and still are spoken of in the aorist indicative tense - meaning they are a past completed action.

Paul claimed his salvation was complete, in that it was so sure to happen that he spoke of it as already having happened.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

In the actuation of it no... in the fixation of history according to the mind of God yes...

Rom 8:30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Eph 2:6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly {places} in Christ Jesus,
Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

All words in bold are events that have yet to take place and still are spoken of in the aorist indicative tense - meaning they are a past completed action.

Paul claimed his salvation was complete, in that it was so sure to happen that he spoke of it as already having happened.

This applies ONLY to those who persevere.

Paul didn't claim that he was among those elect yet:

Phil 3

​

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. 15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

This applies ONLY to those who persevere.

Paul didn't claim that he was among those elect yet:

Phil 3

​

10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead. 12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. 15All of us who are mature should take such a view of things.

Did I not say Yes and No?

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

Did I not say Yes and No?

That is the typical Calvinist response when confronted with a yes OR no question!


Here's a yes or no question for you:

somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.




Can we attain something that is a free gift?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

That is the typical Calvinist response when confronted with a yes OR no question!

Here's a yes or no question for you:

somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Can we attain something that is a free gift?

Here you again blowing over something I have already said that you have no answer for so you just ignore it. You are quite proficient at it. How is that Paul states in one place his being "seated in the heavenlies" and his "glorification" as already happening, and in another place it still hasn't actually happened?

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

Here you again blowing over something I have already said that you have no answer for so you just ignore it. You are quite proficient at it. How is that Paul states in one place his being "seated in the heavenlies" and his "glorification" as already happening, and in another place it still hasn't actually happened?

He didn't say it already happened, that was your extrabiblical interpretation.

Romans 8
23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

Here's a yes or no question for you:

somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Can we attain something that is a free gift?

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

He didn't say it already happened, that was your extrabiblical interpretation.

Romans 8
23Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies.

Eph 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

How many times do I have to say this before you understand? It is both yes and no. You showing that it is still future does nothing to refute my position because I agree with you that it is still future. But it is as good as done. That is my point.

It is not my extrabiblical interpretation - maybe you ought to study the words aorist indicative. It's right there is Scripture, I didn't add anything. Tell me what you think Paul meant in Romans 8:30 and Ephesians 2:6, other than what I have already proposed, that it is as good as done.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

How many times do I have to say this before you understand? It is both yes and no. You showing that it is still future does nothing to refute my position because I agree with you that it is still future. But it is as good as done. That is my point.

It is not my extrabiblical interpretation - maybe you ought to study the words aorist indicative. It's right there is Scripture, I didn't add anything. Tell me what you think Paul meant in Romans 8:30 and Ephesians 2:6, other than what I have already proposed, that it is as good as done.

If you answer this question it will help to end your confusion:

Here's a yes or no question for you:

somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Can we attain something that is a free gift?


FYI:

1. to reach, achieve, or accomplish; gain; obtain: to attain one's goals. 2. to come to or arrive at, esp. after some labor or tedium; reach:

 

[cygnusx1]

Here's a yes or no question for you:

somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Can we attain something that is a free gift?

sure , we attained faith , and faith is a gift

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

sure , we attained faith , and faith is a gift

Consult a dictionary!

 

[cygnusx1]

Consult a dictionary!

consult scripture !


2 Peter 1

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:


and while your at it consult your creed

 

[Charis kai Dunamis]

If you answer this question it will help to end your confusion:

Here's a yes or no question for you:

somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.

Can we attain something that is a free gift?


FYI:

1. to reach, achieve, or accomplish; gain; obtain: to attain one's goals. 2. to come to or arrive at, esp. after some labor or tedium; reach:

I'll play your game, but remember it.

Phl 3:11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.

You base your understanding on English.

καταντάω

1) to come to, arrive
a) to come to a place over against, opposite another
b) metaph. to attain to a thing

καταντάω is in the subjunctive, rendering the word as a possibility (may attain/come). This is where you are basing your argument, that the resurrection of Paul is only a possibility, and if he is to quit persevering, he will not be resurrected. However, καταντάω is also in the aorist, which makes this quite interesting. How can a possibility be rendered as past tense? Adding the word "have" to the text may suffice.

Phl 3:11 in order that I might have attained to the resurrection from the dead.

Note καταντάω is translated "come" 11 out of 13 times in the NT, so that may be a better translation of the word-

Phl 3:11 in order that I might have come to the resurrection from the dead.

The obvious idea here is that Paul wishes to partake in the resurrection of the dead. There is no speech which warrants a need for merit or earning of the resurrection. You have brought this into the text based on your understanding of the scope of the translated word, not the original word.

 

[itisdeliciouscake]

1) Calvinists claim that acts of man have no impact on who is saved.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not.


2) Jesus says that we must obey and do the will of God to be saved.

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.



Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Who do you believe?

I think there's a certain verse that says something about.... oh... i don't know.... preparing us beforehand to do good works?