A dilemma for Calvinists

[Eucharistic Adoration]

1) Calvinists claim that acts of man have no impact on who is saved.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not.


2) Jesus says that we must obey and do the will of God to be saved.

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.



Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Who do you believe?

 

[heymikey80]

1) Calvinists claim that acts of man have no impact on who is saved.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not.

Uh, election is not salvation. They're two distinct words, they point to two distinct things.

"God ordains means as well as ends."

2) Jesus says that we must obey and do the will of God to be saved.

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.



Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Who do you believe?

For if Abraham was justified by actions, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who does, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not act but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:3-5
​

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

Uh, election is not salvation. They're two distinct words, they point to two distinct things.

From the Calvinist site: Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not.

The claim is that this election has nothing to do with obedience.
"God ordains means as well as ends."

For if Abraham was justified by actions, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who does, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not act but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:3-5
​

Abraham had a living faith that was strengthened by his obedience to God.

Abraham was rewarded for his obedience.

You didn't address the words of Jesus I posted:

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.



Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

 

[Apollos1]

There is a way in which the word “faith” is used in scripture in a comprehensive sense – ex. Romans 16:26 - “obedience of faith”, Hebrews 11 – see examples. Abraham’s faith in Romans 4:3 is also used in a comprehensive sense. Romans 4:12, “…walk in the steps of that faith.” Mental ascent or acknowledgment of facts in respect to the Son of God and the salvation He can provide is insufficient to claim what Hebrews 10:39 calls “saving faith”.

Let the record show that in Galatians 3:6 Paul quotes Genesis 15:6 referring to “faithful Abraham” (v9). Again, in Romans 4:3 Paul quotes Genesis 15:6 in respect to the faith of Abraham. Let the record show as well that James refers to this same passage – Genesis 15:6 - in James 2:23 to prove that Abraham was justified by works.

These verses say the same thing in different ways.

Romans 4 and James 2 talk about the SAME type of faith! We know this because both scriptures talk about Abraham’s faith - quoting Genesis 15:6. The difference? Romans 4 speaks of the TYPE of works NOT reckoned as righteousness while James 2 speaks to the necessity for the TYPE of works that are!

Abraham believed and obeyed God and looked to Him for justification. He did not think he could save himself by perfect works, as this would require absolute sinlessness. No one should read more into Romans 4 than is written.

Romans 4:3 does not teach, for example, that Abraham did not work at all.
Read John 8:39 - “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham.”
Abraham worked!

Romans 4:3 does not teach that Abraham did not obey God.
Notice Heb. 11:8 - “By faith Abraham when he was called, obeyed to go out…”
Abraham obeyed!
Please observe that this faithful act of obedience occurred before Gen. 15:6.

Romans 4:3 does not teach that Abraham was not faithful to God.
Consider Galatians 3:9– “They that are of faith are blessed with the faithful Abraham.”
Abraham was faithful!

Romans 4:3 does not teach that Abraham was not justified by works.
Revisit James 2:21-24. Abraham was justified by works – but not the TYPE of works that Paul discusses in Romans 4.

The fact remains that there is nothing that we can do- not even believe- which in any sense of the word would put God in our debt, such that He “owed” us salvation.

But if anyone can understand how “faith” is necessary for our salvation even though it is a work (John 6:29), and if you are able to understand that this “work” does not “earn” salvation, then you should have no problem understanding how complying with any of the other terms of salvation does not put God in your debt – but are required by God in order for man to appropriate His blessing of salvation.

 

[CmRoddy]

1) Calvinists claim that acts of man have no impact on who is saved.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not.


2) Jesus says that we must obey and do the will of God to be saved.

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.



Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Who do you believe?

OK, let's try this one more time... perhaps this time it will get through to you.

Yes, obedience is an act of man's will. God changes our heart and gives us a new spirit and He causes us to walk in His statutes (Ezekiel 36:26-27). When Jesus says that we must obey, He is right because those who obey and believe are the ones who are already His sheep. Look at what Jesus told the pharisees in John 10

26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
​

He does not say "You are not my sheep (i.e. saved) because you do not believe." Your flaw is that you seem to think that man has faith and then they are saved, but nowhere do you find such a teaching in Scripture.

Ephesians 2:8 says

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
​

Notice what we have been saved by; we are not saved by the faith, it says we have been saved "by grace." The faith is the means that God uses to manifest this salvation because Christ is the author and perfecter of faith (Heb. 12:2).

We also see the same thing in the book of 1 John. In chapter 5 verse 1, John writes:

1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
​

The Greek actually says "has been born of God" and the "has been born" is a verb in the perfect tense, meaning that it happened in the past and continues on to the present. The result of being born of God is that one believes that Jesus is the Christ, not the other way around. The Greek necessitates it. I showed this verse because 1 John 2:29 uses the same exact grammatical structure as 1 John 5:1. It says:

29If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
​

Those who practice righteousness "has been born of God." Same Greek term, same Greek perfect tense. There is no way around this; the result of being saved is that one practices righteousness and willingly obeys and grows in sanctification.

Another place we see something similar is in Philippians 2:12-13. It reads:

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
​

We are told to "work your [our] salvation." Yes, we have a responsibility, but a lot of people either ignore or don't like the next verse. The thought doesn't end with v. 12, it continues on to tell us that "it is God who is at work in you [us]" to do work for God's "good pleasure." We aren't working out our salvation on our own; God is faithful to those He calls and He makes sure that they will be sanctified (1 Thess. 5:23-24).

Yes, we are told that obedience and following the statues of God is important and necessary (cf. Hebrews 12:14; Romans 8:13; Galatians 5:18-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Ephesians 5:1-10; 1 John 3:14-15; 1 John 4:20; John 8:31 etc), but what you seem to deny is that doing these things are the result of being saved, not the cause.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

OK, let's try this one more time... perhaps this time it will get through to you.

Yes, obedience is an act of man's will. God changes our heart and gives us a new spirit and He causes us to walk in His statutes (Ezekiel 36:26-27). When Jesus says that we must obey, He is right because those who obey and believe are the ones who are already His sheep.

You must endure to be saved.

You will be judged for your actions.

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".


2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."


Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.


Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.


Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

 

[green wolverine]

1) Calvinists claim that acts of man have no impact on who is saved.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not.


2) Jesus says that we must obey and do the will of God to be saved.

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.



Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Who do you believe?

So where's the dilemma???? I obey God because I love Him and it's part of the Holy Spirit working in my life. It's evidence of my regeneration and called sanctification. Seems simple enough to me...........

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

So where's the dilemma???? I obey God because I love Him and it's part of the Holy Spirit working in my life. It's evidence of my regeneration and called sanctification. Seems simple enough to me...........

The dilemma is that Calvinist claim obedience is not required for salvation.

Jesus says it is required.

Calvinists claim none of our actions impact our salvation, it is entirely based on God's predestination which is UNRELATED to our behavior.

 

[oworm]

The dilemma is that Calvinist claim obedience is not required for salvation.

Jesus says it is required.

I think I can confidently assert that every Calvinist in this discussion would agree that obedience is absolutely and unequivocally required for salvation. God requires absolute obedience to his Law without reservation. Every Reformed Christian on this forum would agree with that. No one gets to heaven without absolute perfect obedience to Gods Law in every aspect and without any exception.

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”

Calvinists claim none of our actions impact our salvation, it is entirely based on God's predestination which is UNRELATED to our behavior.

I have never met a Calvinistic yet who made such an assertion. Salvation is based on the finished work of Christ alone. He is the foundation of salvation.
Can you provide citation of any of these claims by Calvinists?

 

[CmRoddy]

You must endure to be saved.

You will be judged for your actions.

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".


2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."


Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.


Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.


Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

This proves, once and for all, that you do NOT read what other people have written. All you do is project your own agenda. Absolutely amazing.

 

[CmRoddy]

The dilemma is that Calvinist claim obedience is not required for salvation.

Jesus says it is required.

Calvinists claim none of our actions impact our salvation, it is entirely based on God's predestination which is UNRELATED to our behavior.

Amazing how I have explained the Calvinist position over, and over, and over again, correcting your error and misunderstanding of Calvinism, yet you still use this same argument.

This is childish behavior, my friend.

 

[CmRoddy]

So where's the dilemma???? I obey God because I love Him and it's part of the Holy Spirit working in my life. It's evidence of my regeneration and called sanctification. Seems simple enough to me...........

Remember, Catholics have an unbiblical understanding of sanctification and justification... also, I have already corrected Adorations many errors before, but he refuses to read what others have to say. Mother Rome has blinded him so much that he simply can't read what people write without veiling what we say in "Rome" first.

 

[green wolverine]

The dilemma is that Calvinist claim obedience is not required for salvation.

Jesus says it is required.

Calvinists claim none of our actions impact our salvation, it is entirely based on God's predestination which is UNRELATED to our behavior.

So what's the problem???

I in no way earned my salvation as I wasn't seeking God when He reached into my life and changed my heart and drew me to Himself.

My obedience is the result of my faith, not the reason I'm saved. If I had to earn my salvation, I couldn't do it nor could anyone else which is why Jesus lived a perfect life in our stead.

This is the joy of Calvinism--we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves. As the wonderful hymn Rock of Ages says:

Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee;
Let the water and the blood,
From Thy wounded side which flowed,
Be of sin the double cure;
Save from wrath and make me pure.

Not the labor of my hands
Can fulfill Thy law’s demands;
Could my zeal no respite know,
Could my tears forever flow,
All for sin could not atone;

Thou must save, and Thou alone.
Nothing in my hand I bring,
Simply to the cross I cling;
Naked, come to Thee for dress;
Helpless look to Thee for grace;

Foul, I to the fountain fly;
Wash me, Savior, or I die.
While I draw this fleeting breath,
When mine eyes shall close in death,
[originally When my eye-strings break in death]
When I soar to worlds unknown,
See Thee on Thy judgment throne,
Rock of Ages, cleft for me,
Let me hide myself in Thee.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

Amazing how I have explained the Calvinist position over, and over, and over again, correcting your error and misunderstanding of Calvinism, yet you still use this same argument.

This is childish behavior, my friend.

What's amazing is your inability to explain Calvinist dogma without insulting me.

Do you accept unconditional election or not?

What is it that man does, according to Calvinism, to earn salvation?

 

[CmRoddy]

What's amazing is your inability to explain Calvinist dogma without insulting me.

Do you accept unconditional election or not?

What is it that man does, according to Calvinism, to earn salvation?

I have explained it without offending you. Perhaps you should go read my first post in this thread... and when I say "read" I mean actually take the time to read and comprehend what I wrote...

 

[oworm]

Originally Posted by Eucharistic Adoration

The dilemma is that Calvinist claim obedience is not required for salvation.

Jesus says it is required.​

​

I think I can confidently assert that every Calvinist in this discussion would agree that obedience is absolutely and unequivocally required for salvation. God requires absolute obedience to his Law without reservation. Every Reformed Christian on this forum would agree with that. No one gets to heaven without absolute perfect obedience to Gods Law in every aspect and without any exception.

Luke 10:25-28
And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?” And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” And he said to him, “You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live.”
​

Calvinists claim none of our actions impact our salvation, it is entirely based on God's predestination which is UNRELATED to our behavior.

I have never met a Calvinistic yet who made such an assertion. Salvation is based on the finished work of Christ alone. He is the foundation of salvation.
Can you provide citation of any of these claims by Calvinists?

 

[Hammster]

1) Calvinists claim that acts of man have no impact on who is saved.

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not.


2) Jesus says that we must obey and do the will of God to be saved.

John 15
6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

If you take all of Jesus' teaching as a whole, you will see that pulling this verse out and trying to get it to say what you want it is say is an incorrect way of going about it. Especially using a verse from John. This is just a basic if/then statement. Much like John 3:16. Do the lost obey Jesus' commands? Nope. Do the saved? Yes. Perfectly? No. But is Jesus saying that we must obey perfectly?

Matt 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.


Who do you believe?

I believe that Jesus is right.

 

[Hammster]

The dilemma is that Calvinist claim obedience is not required for salvation.

Jesus says it is required.

Calvinists claim none of our actions impact our salvation, it is entirely based on God's predestination which is UNRELATED to our behavior.

Jesus does not say that obedience is required for salvation. "You shall know them by their fruits". Obedience is a result of salvation. And what happens when we are not obedient children (and we are children of God, those who are saved)? He disciplines us. Heb 12:6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves, and chastises every son whom he receives.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

[/indent]I think I can confidently assert that every Calvinist in this discussion would agree that obedience is absolutely and unequivocally required for salvation. ?

Hmmmm.... Your confidence is ill founded!

Calvinist Corner:

Unconditional Election:
God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not.

Hammster:

Jesus does not say that obedience is required for salvation.

​

 

[ittarter]

Who do you believe?

You have confused two distinct theological categories. On the one hand, election. On the other hand, salvation.

Calvinists believe that God uses various means by which he saves. Calvinists believe that God spiritually empowers people to believe, obey, fear, etc. And Calvinists believe that God chooses who he will with great mercy and grace give these gifts to.

The synoptic gospels emphasize the human side of salvation -- answering the question "by what means does God mercifully and righteously pave the way to the salvation for the elect?" In sum, if we are to subject the NT canon to a systematized theology, this is the way to bring these statements into line with other statements such as:

Ephesians 2
8-9For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

It is not a matter of, "Who do you believe, Calvinists or Jesus?" but rather "Who do you believe, Jesus or Paul?" and traditionally Christians have tried to find ways of believing both.