A dilemma for Calvinists

[His]

Hm ... your quotation does not say what you think it says. Your poster didn't say one was prerequisite to the other -- he said it was required. I would say the questioning of confidence might well be reversed:

Article 11: The Holy Spirit's Work in Conversion

• Moreover, when God carries out this good pleasure in his chosen ones, or works true conversion in them, he not only sees to it that the gospel is proclaimed to them outwardly, and enlightens their minds powerfully by the Holy Spirit so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God, but, by the effective operation of the same regenerating Spirit, he also penetrates into the inmost being of man, opens the closed heart, softens the hard heart, and circumcises the heart that is uncircumcised. He infuses new qualities into the will, making the dead will alive, the evil one good, the unwilling one willing, and the stubborn one compliant; he activates and strengthens the will so that, like a good tree, it may be enabled to produce the fruits of good deeds.

Article 12: Regeneration a Supernatural Work

• And this is the regeneration, the new creation, the raising from the dead, and the making alive so clearly proclaimed in the Scriptures, which God works in us without our help. But this certainly does not happen only by outward teaching, by moral persuasion, or by such a way of working that, after God has done his work, it remains in man's power whether or not to be reborn or converted. Rather, it is an entirely supernatural work, one that is at the same time most powerful and most pleasing, a marvelous, hidden, and inexpressible work, which is not lesser than or inferior in power to that of creation or of raising the dead, as Scripture (inspired by the author of this work) teaches. As a result, all those in whose hearts God works in this marvelous way are certainly, unfailingly, and effectively reborn and do actually believe. And then the will, now renewed, is not only activated and motivated by God but in being activated by God is also itself active. For this reason, man himself, by that grace which he has received, is also rightly said to believe and
  to repent.

• Canons of Dordt
  

Y'know, blatant misquotes are nothing but a smear from you. What Hammster actually said was, 'Jesus does not say that obedience is required for salvation. "You shall know them by their fruits". Obedience is a result of salvation.'

Equivocation, especially amphiboly, are simply taking someone's words out of context to try to prove something you're defeated on.

Welcome to the defeat. Obedience isn't required as if it's a cause of salvation. But obedience results from being born of God -- so in that sense it appears as a result of what many call salvation.

Obedience emerges as a result of being born again, relying on Christ, and receiving the Spirit of God Who leads us into all truth. Therefore it results from the one who has faith in Jesus -- given time, opportunity, and the working of God in the believer. It's not prerequisite to salvation. It's a general result, given what God does in us.

Good call, I missed that

 

[Hammster]

Deleted

 

[His]

Not the cause, but a necessary component.

Absolutely. And God Himself provides us with that since, in and of ourselves' we are incapable of obedience.

Salvation is possible only via the grace of God through Jesus.

In order to be saved, however, we must obey Jesus. God's grace makes it possible for us to follow and obey Jesus.

Absolutely and by the grace of God we are enabled to obey.
The only thing we contribute to our salvation is the sin which makes it necessary

 

[heymikey80]

Paul says it flatly, impossible to be reversed. Abraham's work wasn't what justified him before God. Nor us, if we are Abraham's children.

Not with salvation, no.​

​

You are reading your dogma into the scripture. Abraham's faith would have been worthless if he had not acted on it.

Nope, but I would suggest that you take a hard look at the statement Paul made before responding with James to answer what Paul said so directly.

Once more: here's what Paul said:

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:2-5
​

Are you going to address Paul's flat-out statement, or shift to something else? Paul says Abraham was not justified before God by works. Period.

Who's Abraham justified before, by works? It's not before God. Hm, who else is Abraham justified before?

Here's what James said:

20You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless? 21Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?

Yeah. Read it directly.

do you want evidence​

Not God. Do you want evidence?

And what's the evidence used for in a courtroom?

Was not our ancestor Abraham considered justified for what he did
​

Not God. Do you want this verdict, "justified"? Abraham's considered justified -- a courtroom word, but not in God's courtroom. It's in our courtroom.

If your brain is not involved, then you are not obeying. Obedience is an act of will. What do you mean by important? Important as in necessary for salvation?

The logical fallacy here: False Dilemma. You're the one asserting the brain is not involved in relying on Christ. Not me. Who are you arguing with?

My position continues to stand, your argument shot wide. So -- are you going to deal with the argument?

 

[Hismessenger]

It is not a dilemma for Calvinist but to those who continually decry the power of God. God created us and in our creation he had a purpose for us to perform. That purpose will undoubtedly come to pass because our choices which we make, even when you think it's your choice, will ultimately take us to a place of fulfilling that purpose to which we were created. This is the dilemma for those who don't see the whole picture.

God has said that He would give us a new heart and CAUSE US TO WALK IN HIS STATUES. It isn't a choice but His will. The scripture also say that God rules in the kingdom of men and does what he wants in it. And who can say what are you doing to him. He says that he sets up the most base men over it. Can that be chosen by man?

This isn't about a doctrine but rather recognizing the sovereignty of God over His creation. HE makes kings and rulers and puts them down in His time, not by their choice. He says when the wind will blow and which way it should take. How can the created question the motive of the creator without understanding what the creation is all about.

What did Christ tell Pilate?. The only power that you have is what my Father gives you from on high. That statement alone should tell you who is in charge.

hismessenger

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

Hm ... your quotation does not say what you think it says. Your poster didn't say one was prerequisite to the other -- he said it was required. I would say the questioning of confidence might well be reversed:

Article 11: The Holy Spirit's Work in Conversion

• Moreover, when God carries out this good pleasure in his chosen ones, or works true conversion in them, he not only sees to it that the gospel is proclaimed to them outwardly, and enlightens their minds powerfully by the Holy Spirit so that they may rightly understand and discern the things of the Spirit of God, but, by the effective operation of the same regenerating Spirit, he also penetrates into the inmost being of man, opens the closed heart, softens the hard heart, and circumcises the heart that is uncircumcised. He infuses new qualities into the will, making the dead will alive, the evil one good, the unwilling one willing, and the stubborn one compliant; he activates and strengthens the will so that, like a good tree, it may be enabled to produce the fruits of good deeds.

Article 12: Regeneration a Supernatural Work

• And this is the regeneration, the new creation, the raising from the dead, and the making alive so clearly proclaimed in the Scriptures, which God works in us without our help. But this certainly does not happen only by outward teaching, by moral persuasion, or by such a way of working that, after God has done his work, it remains in man's power whether or not to be reborn or converted. Rather, it is an entirely supernatural work, one that is at the same time most powerful and most pleasing, a marvelous, hidden, and inexpressible work, which is not lesser than or inferior in power to that of creation or of raising the dead, as Scripture (inspired by the author of this work) teaches. As a result, all those in whose hearts God works in this marvelous way are certainly, unfailingly, and effectively reborn and do actually believe. And then the will, now renewed, is not only activated and motivated by God but in being activated by God is also itself active. For this reason, man himself, by that grace which he has received, is also rightly said to believe and
  to repent.

• Canons of Dordt

This is a description of the process of salvation according to Calvinists. It does not address unconditional election, it addresses the process for th elect.

​

Y'know, blatant misquotes are nothing but a smear from you. What Hammster actually said was, 'Jesus does not say that obedience is required for salvation. "You shall know them by their fruits". Obedience is a result of salvation.'

I wouldn't intentionally misquote anyone. I'll check it out.

I did check it out. I accurately quoted him.

Welcome to the defeat.

Oh brother!

Obedience isn't required as if it's a cause of salvation. But obedience results from being born of God -- so in that sense it appears as a result of what many call salvation.

You don't need to repeat Calvinist dogma. I understand it.

Being born again is the beginning, not the end. We must obey and endure to be saved. God's grace is available to HELP us.

Obedience emerges as a result of being born again, relying on Christ, and receiving the Spirit of God Who leads us into all truth. Therefore it results from the one who has faith in Jesus -- given time, opportunity, and the working of God in the believer. It's not prerequisite to salvation. It's a general result, given what God does in us.[/

More Calvinist dogma that is unbiblical.

You compain about having your doctrine described, then go on to repeat what I have just posted!

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

Absolutely. And God Himself provides us with that since, in and of ourselves' we are incapable of obedience.


Absolutely and by the grace of God we are enabled to obey.
The only thing we contribute to our salvation is the sin which makes it necessary

Wrong. Obedience is our response to God's grace.

If we don't respond, we won't be saved.

 

[heymikey80]

This is a description of the process of salvation according to Calvinists. It does not address unconditional election, it addresses the process for th elect.

It addresses obedience.

Your OP is a False Dilemma.

I wouldn't intentionally misquote anyone. I'll check it out.

Do so.

Oh brother!

You don't need to repeat Calvinist dogma. I understand it.

Well, it's apparent you don't understand it because you began this thread. Read the OP again.

"A dilemma for Calvinists"
​

If you'd been considering the "Calvinist dogma" you say you understand, posting "A dilemma for Calvinists" no less, you would have realized -- this is no dilemma.

Which makes your thread ... what? Disingenuous? Or is your understanding of "Calvinist dogma" not really understanding, but a misunderstanding?

Which is it? Are you being disingenuous, or just misunderstanding?

Being born again is the beginning, not the end. We must obey and endure to be saved. God's grace is available to HELP us.

Well, that's Roman Catholic dogma. In Scripture being born again is tantamount to enduring:

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith. 1 John 5:4
​

It's indicative. it's not subjunctive. Every person born of God overcomes the world.

Calvin seems to be having some successes on these fronts of justification by works and being born again. Are you going to address them, or are we going to shift to another subject?

You compain about having your doctrine described, then go on to repeat what I have just posted!

Oh, then explain the actual dilemma posed in the OP.

 

[His]

Wrong. Obedience is our response to God's grace.

If we don't respond, we won't be saved.

Actually I'm not wrong. I know my Bible. I can see though that to continue arguing with you is futile.

 

[Hammster]

Wrong. Obedience is our response to God's grace.



If we don't respond, we won't be saved.

Almost. If we don't respond it's because we haven't been saved.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

In Scripture being born again is tantamount to enduring:

For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world— our faith. 1 John 5:4.​

Try posting the entire passage!

3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
​

Being born again is something completely different than enduring.

We can read in scripture of many who fall away after starting their walk with Jesus. They were born again, but then failed to endure:

Heb 3:14
For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."


Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.
Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

Hebrews 10:26-27 "For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries."

Gal 6
7Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

 

[heymikey80]

Try posting the entire passage!

3This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith.
​

Being born again is something completely different than enduring.

So I assume you have nothing to say about what John said, that everyone born of God overcomes the world. Because that simply contradicts what you've said, "Being born again is the beginning, not the end. We must obey and endure to be saved."

Are you backing off from this? Or continuing to assert it? Because at this point, it appears yet another argument is left standing by a sidestep.

As for the latest sidestep, John's already said that even this love has come from being born of God:

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.​

So we're down to this: those who love, have received love from God. So they obey commands because they love God, which is because they've been born of God. And of course, everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world.

So it's all coming from New Birth. Even faith (1 John 5:1).

We can read in scripture of many who fall away after starting their walk with Jesus. They were born again, but then failed to endure

These have all been addressed here, ad infinitum. Of course there are people who started a walk with Jesus. That is not tantamount to being born again.

It's not always even tantamount to believing. It's just a positive encounter with Jesus. I'm sure the entire Sanhedrin had an encounter with the Sanhedrin. But I'm also sure it did not save some of them.

Here, here's another one.

Yet another said, "I will follow you, Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home." 62Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God." Lk 9:61-62
​

It's a result, not a cause. Y'can't have the wrong motivation, and yet expect to be saved by continuing to plow away for Jesus, or sow to the Spirit. Works don't cut it. And works also aren't prerequisite to it -- because if they were prerequisite, then works would cut it.

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

So I assume you have nothing to say about what John said, that everyone born of God overcomes the world. Because that simply contradicts what you've said, "Being born again is the beginning, not the end. We must obey and endure to be saved."

Are you backing off from this? Or continuing to assert it? Because at this point, it appears yet another argument is left standing by a sidestep.

As for the latest sidestep, John's already said that even this love has come from being born of God:

Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God.
​

So we're down to this: those who love, have received love from God. So they obey commands because they love God, which is because they've been born of God. And of course, everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world.

So it's all coming from New Birth. Even faith (1 John 5:1).

These have all been addressed here, ad infinitum. Of course there are people who started a walk with Jesus. That is not tantamount to being born again.

It's not always even tantamount to believing. It's just a positive encounter with Jesus. I'm sure the entire Sanhedrin had an encounter with the Sanhedrin. But I'm also sure it did not save some of them.

Here, here's another one.

Yet another said, "I will follow you, Lord, but let me first say farewell to those at my home." 62Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God." Lk 9:61-62

​

It's a result, not a cause. Y'can't have the wrong motivation, and yet expect to be saved by continuing to plow away for Jesus, or sow to the Spirit. Works don't cut it. And works also aren't prerequisite to it -- because if they were prerequisite, then works would cut it.

It's amazing that you can take crystal clear words and make them mean the exact opposite of what they actually say!


Of course it is a result. Why would it matter if we grow weary? Why would we need to obey and endure?

As to first John, you have to read the entire book.
Do you believe this:

1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

 

[heymikey80]

It's amazing that you can take crystal clear words and make them mean the exact opposite of what they actually say!

Only when you thought they meant something they don't mean. I'm fine with your challenging from the context -- it's always very interesting to understand what people see in the context. Jumping around while we're discussing a particular verse, less so. I just want to get at what the writer meant, then I can see what he's teaching.

Whether that opposes Rome or even Calvin, fine. (and I've touched one verse that Calvin disagrees on, but it's a needle in a haystack now) Let God be true and every man a liar.

Of course it is a result. Why would it matter if we grow weary? Why would we need to obey and endure?

"God ordains means as well as ends." Of course it matters, because of what God is teaching through Creation and Redemption. Our actions aren't detached from our hearts, they grow out of our hearts, as Jesus said. That's how things were ordained: the physical is out of the spiritual.

It's obvious that works are a result. Our motivations are to be judged, and we're to avoid self-deception. The weariness can be caused by our own deception as to our condition before God. So can lack of obedience and endurance.

As to first John, you have to read the entire book.

I have. "'o aen ap' arxeis ..."

Do you believe this:

1Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well.

I believe what it actually says. Do you believe this:

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
​

 

[green wolverine]

This is a bit off topic, but what I see in why people are sooooo insistent that you can't be saved without obedience is the mistaken belief that if you're saved by grace along as the Canon of Dort and all other Reformed confessions teach, you'll sin that grace may abound as Paul talked about. Nothing could be further from the truth. We obey because God has instilled in our hearts a love for Him that surpasses all else, and it's our greatest desire to please Him.

An example of this might shed some light on the subject:

I was a member of the Worldwide Church of God, the cult founded by Herbert W Armstong for 20 years. One of the old goat's [my pet name for Herbert Armstrong] teaching was that the seventh day sabbath was a 'test commandment.' After he died, the church was forced to re-examine their teaching, and in an effort to become more mainstream, they decided it wasn't binding on NT Christians. I can't tell you the turmoil half the members went through fussing over how this would lead to people cheating on their spouses, robbing banks and every other sin known to man. They couldn't understand that people would obey God because it was in their heart to do so. It was truly a mindnumbing experience seeing these people agonize over not being forced to do something. Fortunately, God yanked out of that snakepit and put me in a good reformed church where I realized that what I'd read in the Bible all those years was Calvinism.

Anyway, my two cents for what it's worth....

 

[CmRoddy]

OK, let's try this one more time... perhaps this time it will get through to you.

Yes, obedience is an act of man's will. God changes our heart and gives us a new spirit and He causes us to walk in His statutes (Ezekiel 36:26-27). When Jesus says that we must obey, He is right because those who obey and believe are the ones who are already His sheep. Look at what Jesus told the pharisees in John 10

26"But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
27"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
​

He does not say "You are not my sheep (i.e. saved) because you do not believe." Your flaw is that you seem to think that man has faith and then they are saved, but nowhere do you find such a teaching in Scripture.

Ephesians 2:8 says

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
​

Notice what we have been saved by; we are not saved by the faith, it says we have been saved "by grace." The faith is the means that God uses to manifest this salvation because Christ is the author and perfecter of faith (Heb. 12:2).

We also see the same thing in the book of 1 John. In chapter 5 verse 1, John writes:

1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
​

The Greek actually says "has been born of God" and the "has been born" is a verb in the perfect tense, meaning that it happened in the past and continues on to the present. The result of being born of God is that one believes that Jesus is the Christ, not the other way around. The Greek necessitates it. I showed this verse because 1 John 2:29 uses the same exact grammatical structure as 1 John 5:1. It says:

29If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
​

Those who practice righteousness "has been born of God." Same Greek term, same Greek perfect tense. There is no way around this; the result of being saved is that one practices righteousness and willingly obeys and grows in sanctification.

Another place we see something similar is in Philippians 2:12-13. It reads:

12So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;
13for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.
​

We are told to "work your [our] salvation." Yes, we have a responsibility, but a lot of people either ignore or don't like the next verse. The thought doesn't end with v. 12, it continues on to tell us that "it is God who is at work in you [us]" to do work for God's "good pleasure." We aren't working out our salvation on our own; God is faithful to those He calls and He makes sure that they will be sanctified (1 Thess. 5:23-24).

Yes, we are told that obedience and following the statues of God is important and necessary (cf. Hebrews 12:14; Romans 8:13; Galatians 5:18-21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; Ephesians 5:1-10; 1 John 3:14-15; 1 John 4:20; John 8:31 etc), but what you seem to deny is that doing these things are the result of being saved, not the cause.

You [Eucharist Adoration] can give me quotes all you want, but here is something you never seemed to catch on to.

YOU are misunderstanding Calvinism! YOU have been corrected but you refuse to acknowledge that!

You can quote me Calvinists all day and I will agree with them; but your gross misrepresentation and misunderstanding of what these Calvinists say is very apparent.

Bump because he seems to think that his "dilemma" is still valid...

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

I believe what it actually says. Do you believe this:

Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.
​

I think this must be a living faith. Even the demons believe. Satan believes.

Do Satan and the demons love the Father?

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

This is a bit off topic, but what I see in why people are sooooo insistent that you can't be saved without obedience is the mistaken belief that if you're saved by grace along as the Canon of Dort and all other Reformed confessions teach, you'll sin that grace may abound as Paul talked about. Nothing could be further from the truth. We obey because God has instilled in our hearts a love for Him that surpasses all else, and it's our greatest desire to please Him.

We people are insistent that you can't be saved without obedience because it is explicit in the bible and is logically necessary.

Grace saves us by enabling us to obey.

Not all people obey. God wants us all to obey, but some put other desires above the will of God.


Question: If you don't obey, will you go to heaven?

 

[CmRoddy]

I think Adoration has me on "Ignore" or something.

Adoration, if you can read this, why haven't you responded to my first post? Why haven't you done a scholarly and Biblical response to it?

 

[Eucharistic Adoration]

I think Adoration has me on "Ignore" or something.

Adoration, if you can read this, why haven't you responded to my first post? Why haven't you done a scholarly and Biblical response to it?

You make a series of straw dog points unrelated to the OP.

Of course we are saved by grace.

What I deny is that we have no responsibility to respond to God's grace.

You claim that our response is unnecessary for salvation.