A couple of questions

[Ken-1122]

You said:
<B>

Now if a voice came from the clouds proclaiming Jesus as the messiah, a lot more people would have believed him!
​

</B>To which I responded:
Kinda like the Voice of the Father did when He was baptized and said"This is my son in whom I am well pleased." Or in any of these other accounts of a "voice from the sky making that proclamation."

Then left you these biblical examples of this action

1. Matthew 3:17

1. 
   And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
   Matthew 3:16-17 (in Context) Matthew 3 (Whole Chapter)
   [*]Matthew 17:5
   While he was still speaking, a bright cloud covered them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”
   Matthew 17:4-6 (in Context) Matthew 17 (Whole Chapter)
   [*]Mark 9:7
   Then a cloud appeared and covered them, and a voice came from the cloud: “This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to him!”
   Mark 9:6-8 (in Context) Mark 9 (Whole Chapter)
   [*]Luke 9:35
   A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen; listen to him.”
   Luke 9:34-36 (in Context) Luke 9 (Whole Chapter)
   [*]2 Peter 1:17
   He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”
   2 Peter 1:16-18 (in Context) 2 Peter 1 (Whole Chapter)

(reply)
Yes that was a good point you made; usually when somebody quotes a bible verse, I have a tendency to overlook it without even reading it because I like hearing the person’s opinion not what he got from a book and this time it backfired on me because I completely missed that point you made.
If you believe what the bible says, obviously those people in that small area of the world where Jesus preached are without excuse but I don’t think it can be compared to a voice coming from the sky proclaiming to be God the creator of the universe to the entire world at once in a language that everyone can understand especially if it were done with today’s technology.

Ken

 

[drich0150]

(reply)
Yes that was a good point you made; usually when somebody quotes a bible verse, I have a tendency to overlook it without even reading it because I like hearing the person’s opinion not what he got from a book and this time it backfired on me because I completely missed that point you made.
If you believe what the bible says, obviously those people in that small area of the world where Jesus preached are without excuse but I don’t think it can be compared to a voice coming from the sky proclaiming to be God the creator of the universe to the entire world at once in a language that everyone can understand especially if it were done with today’s technology.

Ken

What you have described is exactly the type of gesture God made in a time where "tech" as we know it now did not exist. Which makes it all the more impressive.

In either case you asked why God has not done this. I shown you where He has, and still to those with hard hearts it meant nothing more than something they had to account for, which spawned resentment and/or the wrong type of belief.

Generally speaking People with hard hearts believe what they want to believe, and they will pick and choose in order to do so.

 

[Ken-1122]

What you have described is exactly the type of gesture God made in a time where "tech" as we know it now did not exist. Which makes it all the more impressive.

In either case you asked why God has not done this. I shown you where He has, and still to those with hard hearts it meant nothing more than something they had to account for, which spawned resentment and/or the wrong type of belief.

Generally speaking People with hard hearts believe what they want to believe, and they will pick and choose in order to do so.

The problem with this example is; it is only believed by those who believe what the bible says. There are no records of such an event actually happening outside the bible. IMO if such an event actually took place, I believe there would be records that even exist today of such an event. It is said that the Romans were known to keep very accurate records of the events of that time and those records are still around today but no such records such as a voice coming from the sky is recorded in any of these records. That’s why I was referring to it happening with today’s technology. If it were done today there would be no dispute of it happening because it would be on record forever.

K

 

[drich0150]

The problem with this example is; it is only believed by those who believe what the bible says. There are no records of such an event actually happening outside the bible.

The problem with that view is that your belief and standard of historical documentation is based on a modern standard which impart finds it's origins in scripture. Meaning before the bible there were no random documentations of history. Everything was event driven. Battles, major legislation, births deaths of important people etc.. There are little to no verified daily accounts of history. (Using the manuscripts of the books of the bible as a reference or standard.) Recorded History simply did not exist as we know it. For the most part It was passed verbally. What got passed and recorded in the favor of Christ was placed in the bible, those who did not want to believe simply ignore or dismissed as you have.

For example what unrelated religious recordings do we have outside of the bible that any religious events took place in the first century? What did Rome record? does this mean there were no significant historical events that took place? Or rather society did not have the tools, or was not built to the same standards of record keeping that we have enjoyed these last few hundred years.

IMO if such an event actually took place, I believe there would be records that even exist today of such an event.

Why? Who did this benefit? Rome? The Jews who wish to retain power? The common man who could not read or write? Who was writing any of this down and who was maintaining these historical records and to what context if not in the bible? Where were the records kept? who was reading them? Who cared besides those in the Church?

It is said that the Romans were known to keep very accurate records of the events of that time and those records are still around today but no such records such as a voice coming from the sky is recorded in any of these records.

Rome kept no such records that did not fully benefit Rome. They were the propaganda machine in which Hitler built and modeled His propaganda efforts. If History did not speak to the greatness of Rome "History" was changed.

That’s why I was referring to it happening with today’s technology. If it were done today there would be no dispute of it happening because it would be on record forever.

Now as it was then there will always be dispute, and reason for people to deny the authenticity of what was recorded.

Bottom line is if you can acknowledge Christ you have to admit this "acknowledgment" came through the bible. If This acknowledgment came through the bible then the bible has been established as a viable source or reference material.

 

[Walter Kovacs]

One might consider 'natural revelation' to be one way of God speaking to all of humanity at once.

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote) “The problem with that view is that your belief and standard of historical documentation is based on a modern standard which impart finds it's origins in scripture. Meaning before the bible there were no random documentations of history. Everything was event driven. Battles, major legislation, births deaths of important people etc.. There are little to no verified daily accounts of history. (Using the manuscripts of the books of the bible as a reference or standard.) Recorded History simply did not exist as we know it. For the most part It was passed verbally. What got passed and recorded in the favor of Christ was placed in the bible, those who did not want to believe simply ignore or dismissed as you have.

For example what unrelated religious recordings do we have outside of the bible that any religious events took place in the first century? What did Rome record? does this mean there were no significant historical events that took place?”

(reply) How about what was recorded about Julius Caesar? As you know, Julius Ceasar was already dead and buried long before Jesus or the bible was even thought of and those records are still around today.

(quote) “Who did this benefit? Rome? The Jews who wish to retain power? The common man who could not read or write? Who was writing any of this down and who was maintaining these historical records and to what context if not in the bible? Where were the records kept? who was reading them? Who cared besides those in the Church?”

(reply) I understand your point that’s why I said if it happened today with today’s technology, there would be no disputing of such an event

(quote) “Now as it was then there will always be dispute, and reason for people to deny the authenticity of what was recorded.”

(reply) Yeah but those people won’t be taken seriously. Kinda like the holocaust denyers.

(quote) “Bottom line is if you can acknowledge Christ you have to admit this "acknowledgment" came through the bible. If This acknowledgment came through the bible then the bible has been established as a viable source or reference material. ”

(reply) The only people who see the bible as a viable source of reference material are christians. Just as you wouldn’t consider the claims of the koran or the Vedas as reliable, those who worship other Gods won’t consider what is in your bible as reliable.

Ken

 

[drich0150]

(reply) How about what was recorded about Julius Caesar? As you know, Julius Caesar was already dead and buried long before Jesus or the bible was even thought of and those records are still around today.

Again this plays exactly into what I was say was the types of recording that were made in the first century. An Emperor of Rome would indeed be a note worthy character to record His Birth, The events surrounding His death, Major legislations he made, His contributions to the Roman empire, That's because Everything known about Julius Caesar was to bolster or propagate the greatness of Rome. So if the Romans are recording history in this example as expected (In central Rome) Why would anything that happened in the outer provinces be of any note worthy concern to them if it did not directly effect the empire?
Then like now any accounts of a "voice Heard" would have been attributed to a drunkards fancy. Or worse yet some Jew's claim that His God reigned supreme over any god the romans believed in.

(reply) I understand your point that’s why I said if it happened today with today’s technology, there would be no disputing of such an event

I watch the travel channel and they capture the voices of "ghosts' with todays technology. To me this is utter foolishness, to others this is absolute proof. We believe in absolute proof if this is the "proof" we are absolutely looking for.

(reply) Yeah but those people won’t be taken seriously. Kinda like the holocaust denyers.

Which are how Jesus denyers are looked at now by some.

(reply) The only people who see the bible as a viable source of reference material are christians. Just as you wouldn’t consider the claims of the koran or the Vedas as reliable, those who worship other Gods won’t consider what is in your bible as reliable.

apples and oranges. You are using the bible to establish the existence of Christ but denying any proof found in the bible that supports the deity of Christ. You seem to be missing the point even though you acknowledged it.

If I used the Koran to establish Muhammad as a profit I can not refuse the evidence the Koran uses to support his status. Either i believe that this man was a prophet by the words of the Koran or I do not.

If you do not want to acknowledge Christ as the son of God then that is fine, Do not use the bible if it is not a "reliable source" to pose or ask questions on the deity of Christ, and then refuse evidence from the very same bible that answers your question.
Make a stand either you believe and acknowledge the authority of the bible or you do not. You can not have it both ways.

That's like asking a physics based question and then prohibit the usage of any math for an answer, on the grounds that you asked a 'science' question.

 

[jacks]

Question #1
What do you think is the worse that can happen if God were to address the entire world at the same time, in an audible voice, in a language each of us can understand to clear up all the misconceptions we have of him?

We could crucify him.

Question #2
Why hasn’t he done it?

He did. And if you want him to reveal himself to you personally, all you have to do is ask him. Then listen with an open heart.

 

[Ken-1122]

Drich0150 (quote) “You are using the bible to establish the existence of Christ but denying any proof found in the bible that supports the deity of Christ. You seem to be missing the point even though you acknowledged it.
If I used the Koran to establish Muhammad as a profit I can not refuse the evidence the Koran uses to support his status. Either i believe that this man was a prophet by the words of the Koran or I do not.[

If you do not want to acknowledge Christ as the son of God then that is fine, Do not use the bible if it is not a "reliable source" to pose or ask questions on the deity of Christ, and then refuse evidence from the very same bible that answers your question.
Make a stand either you believe and acknowledge the authority of the bible or you do not. You can not have it both ways.
That's like asking a physics based question and then prohibit the usage of any math for an answer, on the grounds that you asked a 'science' question.


(reply)”I never used the bible to establish the existence of Jesus, that’s what you guys are doing. But even if I did, it doesn’t take faith to believe a religious leader named Jesus existed 2000 years ago and inspired his followers to write about him making up extraordinary claims about him in the process; to BELIEVE those extraordinary claims does and as I said before, I’m a skeptic I don’t use faith.
Extra ordinary claims require an extra ordinary amount of evidence to accept it and thus far I haven’t seen an extraordinary amount of evidence to support those claims

Jack (quote) “We could crucify him”

(reply) How would you go about crucifying a voice from the sky? Please explain

(quote) “if you want him to reveal himself to you personally, all you have to do is ask him. Then listen with an open heart.


(reply) I did that already; it didn’t work.

Ken

 

[begt]

Question #2
Why hasn&#8217;t he done it?

He did. And if you want him to reveal himself to you personally, all you have to do is ask him. Then listen with an open heart.

Yes, if I really put my mind to it I can believe that the moon is made of cheese, especially if I've been indoctrinated since childhood that it is true.

Don't you understand that if a merciful god existed he would not let people live in agony of whether he exists or not. He would reveal himself for all to see and then he could go away. And there would be absolutely no doubt of his existence... It's as simple as that.

This is how anyone with some reasoning power would think. If a god existed he would be very aware of that. If a god existed he would be highly intelligent so why the f%£&#8364; would he think that faith is so important. Faith is the excuse when there's no evidence.

Besides, creating human beings in order for them to worship you I think is both insane and evil to some extent. I would never want anyone to worship me, bow on their knees before me. It's twisted and immoral. Why would any omnipotent being want to be worshiped? Whatever we as humans do or not would be futile and completly insignificant for such a being.

 

[jacks]

Hi Ken:

(reply) How would you go about crucifying a voice from the sky? Please explain

It was a metaphor. I wasn't thinking you meant literally a "voice from the sky." Rather I thought you were asking in essence "Why doesn't God make plain in a scientifically verifiable way his existence to the people of today."

(quote) “if you want him to reveal himself to you personally, all you have to do is ask him. Then listen with an open heart.


(reply) I did that already; it didn’t work.

Perhaps it is working right now. This is not to say that what you read here on CF is from the mouth of God. However, how God speaks to us comes in many forms.

I've always liked this passage.

The LORD said, “Go out and stand on the mountain in the presence of the LORD, for the LORD is about to pass by.” Then a great and powerful wind tore the mountains apart and shattered the rocks before the LORD, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. After the earthquake came a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire came a gentle whisper. When Elijah heard it, he pulled his cloak over his face and went out and stood at the mouth of the cave. Then a voice said to him, “What are you doing here, Elijah?” – 1 Kings 19: 11-13

Peace.

 

[Ken-1122]

Hi Ken:



Perhaps it is working right now. This is not to say that what you read here on CF is from the mouth of God. However, how God speaks to us comes in many forms.


Peace.

(reply) Why would God attempt to communicate with me in a way he knows I won't understand or recognize?


K

 

[NatLovesChrist2]

Even when God Almighty calls us .. Yes, there will still be unbelievers.. Amazing huh?

Like someone above me said.. they will make an excuse up to say it was ungodly.

The reason He hasn't done it yet.. it frankly isn't that time.. Events have to play out.. He has a set plan.. but He will call out to .. We just don't know when..

( I like the 'I found Faint) comment.. too cute.)