A conversation about unity.

[Xeno.of.athens]

So is that how unity is defined? Because to say there is NO unity seems like more than just saying the communion I take is not a real Holy Eucharist (not that I ever claimed it was.). But unity, IMO, is geared more towards the belief in the universal (the original meaning of the word catholic) church.

Unity requires three things at least.

1. unity in doctrine
2. unity in sacraments
3. unity in governance

Protestants vary in their views of all three so unity with all the various Protestant groups hasn't happened among the Protestants and one cannot expect unity with Catholics in that state.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

It's not for you to judge that.

It is for the Catholic Church to do so and it has.

If they are eating and drinking to remember, and honour, Jesus and his death on the cross; it's real.

The celebration is a real celebration and the bread and wine (or juice) is real bread and wine (or grape juice), but it is not the body and the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

If it were not, it would be for God to show, and convict, them.

Inconveniently God hasn't sent an angel down with a message to adjudicate any matter for around 2,000 years.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

They eat bread and drink wine in remembrance of Christ exactly as He instructed.

Except for the words that Jesus spoke

• This IS my body, and
• This IS my blood of the new covenant

As long as the bread IS bread and the wine IS wine it is not the holy Eucharist.

Anything beyond that is man-made rules and tradition.

Since the words are the words of the Lord Jesus Church they are therefore God's spoken and recorded words, and while Jesus Christ is a man and his words are the words of a man he is also God which makes his words Divine.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I just came across this when I wasn't even looking for anything about the Eucharist. It looks quite interesting. Theologians William Lane Craig and Gavin Ortland clash on the Eucharist (Respectful Dialogue).

Both men are Protestant theologians. William Lane Craig is an Evangelical Protestant, member of a Southern Baptist church. Gavin Ortlund is a Reformed Baptist.

I do not know what their respective sacramental theology is, but it is not Catholic, I think.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

not so likely

Not so much. LOL

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hold on a minute. If it's beneficial to someone demonically possessed, isn't it therefore beneficial to all?

No, it was the opposite.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So, Mark, nice to see you, BTW, are you suggesting here that people who call themselves Christian but don’t believe in the real presence aren’t really Christian?

No, only that they have missed the fullness of our Lord's grace and the promises of Scripture.

 

[Strong in Him]

It is for the Catholic Church to do so

No, it's for God to say.
He sent his Son. He initiated the Passover (which was the meal that Jesus was celebrating with his friends). He planned that we would be reconciled to him by the cross.
At what we call the Last Supper, Jesus was presiding, Jesus invited his friends, Jesus told them to remember him, Jesus was going to the cross Jesus told his disciples to preach the Gospel - they did and we follow Jesus today.
At the Eucharist we come to God' table by his invitation, to receive his Grace through his Spirit.

It's all from God.
It's not for any church to impose man-made rules or traditions which divide believers.

and it has.

Well as you're a Catholic, you'd better follow them then.
I am not a Catholic and neither the Pope, nor the Catholic church, has any authority in my life.

The celebration is a real celebration and the bread and wine (or juice) is real bread and wine (or grape juice), but it is not the body and the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Christ is present by his Spirit to all those who remember him, break bread and invite him into their lives.
Even if a person had no bread, no wine and no Priest, Christ would still be with them, and in them, by his Spirit.

Inconveniently God hasn't sent an angel down with a message to adjudicate any matter for around 2,000 years.

We don't need him to; we have the words of his Son.
He was sharing a Passover meal which celebrated the exodus from Egypt; that miraculous event where GOD rescued the Hebrew slaves from the Egyptians. Jesus said, "do this is memory of me" - from then onwards the Passover was to celebrate Jesus, who would lead us from slavery to sin and death and into life.
His blood was of the New Covenant and would be shed for the forgiveness of sin. His body would be broken for us on the cross. He - the Bread of Life - would give his life as a sacrifice for OUR sin.

Jesus did not say "believe in this way, use unleavened bread and real wine, don't use individual cups, make sure that each person who receives my body believes the right things".
Thank goodness I'm not a Catholic priest and won't need to explain to God why I prevented his children from honouring Jesus and receiving his grace.

 

[Strong in Him]

No, only that they have missed the fullness of our Lord's grace and the promises of Scripture.

Paul says that we - believers - have EVERY spiritual blessing in Christ, Ephesians 1:3.
The condition for those blessings is being in Christ, not receiving the Eucharist.

 

[Servus]

No, it was the opposite.

I don't understand.

 

[Servus]

Both men are Protestant theologians. William Lane Craig is an Evangelical Protestant, member of a Southern Baptist church. Gavin Ortlund is a Reformed Baptist.

Yes, but they're also deeply knowledgeable theologians. The Catholic church has praised William Lane Craig as seen in post #144.

I do not know what their respective sacramental theology is, but it is not Catholic, I think.

No it's not. I just put it up there for viewing if anyone is interested. They both do have an in-depth understanding of Catholic sacremental theology.

 

[Servus]

Except for the words that Jesus spoke

• This IS my body, and
• This IS my blood of the new covenant

As long as the bread IS bread and the wine IS wine it is not the holy Eucharist.

Does God make the bread His body and the wine His blood, or does man do it?

Since the words are the words of the Lord Jesus Church they are therefore God's spoken and recorded words, and while Jesus Christ is a man and his words are the words of a man he is also God which makes his words Divine.

Ageed.

 

[childeye 2]

The people may be real Christians but the sacrament is not a real Holy Eucharist..

Any reasoning based on something false ends in a contradiction. This above at face value sounds like a contradiction. We could just be arguing semantics. What sentiment do you believe is being taught and conveyed by "real presence"?

 

[A New Dawn]

No, only that they have missed the fullness of our Lord's grace and the promises of Scripture.

You mean in your opinion, only, I have to assume, because I feel the deepest levels of grace and mercy from God. And I don’t even need to be taking communion to be struck by the love He has for me and the sacrifices He made, both in coming here from heaven, leaving the Father’s side, and the ones He made here to fulfill the Father’s will.

 

[Servus]

Not so much. LOL

What about it would they find unacceptable? Is it far removed from the rest of Protestant theology?

 

[A New Dawn]

Unity requires three things at least.

1. unity in doctrine
2. unity in sacraments
3. unity in governance

Protestants vary in their views of all three so unity with all the various Protestant groups hasn't happened among the Protestants and one cannot expect unity with Catholics in that state.

Unity requires only that people who profess faith in Jesus Christ respect other people’s profession of faith in Jesus Christ. After all, this is about HIM, not about man made churches or denominational traditions.

 

[Servus]

When church was shut down because of covid and I had to take communion at home, I decided to go with Lutheran instruction on how to do that. This is the short video I went by:

 

[Servus]

It is for the Catholic Church to do so and it has.

The celebration is a real celebration and the bread and wine (or juice) is real bread and wine (or grape juice), but it is not the body and the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'd ask again is it through man's power or God's power that the bread and wine become the body and blood?

Inconveniently God hasn't sent an angel down with a message to adjudicate any matter for around 2,000 years.

I have thought the same thing myself about an angel being sent down to set matters straight.

 

[Hentenza]

Unity requires three things at least.

1. unity in doctrine
2. unity in sacraments
3. unity in governance

Protestants vary in their views of all three so unity with all the various Protestant groups hasn't happened among the Protestants and one cannot expect unity with Catholics in that state.

And, again, you missed the MOST important which is unity in Christ. He happens to be the reason for anything we do and the existential reason for ALL of our churches. Do you think that your definition of unity is going to get you to Heaven any different than us poor Protestants?

 

[ARBITER01]

Maybe he's teaching you to love as he loves and to be more tolerant towards those with whom you disagree.

Even if these people were your enemies or persecutors, you are still to pray for them.

I know when Jesus is teaching me things, and this is not one of those times.