A conversation about unity.

[ozso]

I was listening to William Lane Craig and Biahop Robert Barron having a discussion and Lane said "There are so many things that Roman Catholics believe that I just don't believe I couldn't become a Catholic even if I wanted to".

And that states my situation as well. I couldn't become a Catholic even if I wanted to. While there's much I do believe, accept and agree with in Catholic teaching, there's also a few too many things that I don't.

What's important here to the topic is the unity, at least in the form of camaraderie, between the Protestant and the Catholic.

 

[The Liturgist]

The use of Luke 11:27-28 to debunk Mariology is held by a considerably larger audience than Protestants who subscribe to neo-antidicomarianism and to Nestorianism.

”Debunking Mariology” is by definition neo-antidicomarianism and crypto-Nestorian (Nestorius himself was motivated by antidicomarian considerations).

The largest Protestant denominations, the Anglicans and Lutherans, are for the most part comprised of those who have a correct understanding of the Theotokos, although not always with the fervent devotion of Martin Luther or the High Church Anglicans.

 

[The Liturgist]

We call ourselves the "Catholic Church." The Roman rite is by far the most common but is one of many rites of the Catholic Church.

As do we Orthodox, and also the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East (whose full titles include the word Catholic). The Eastern Orthodox also regard ourselves as being Roman (hence the demonym Rum for Eastern Orthodox in the Levant, or the area of Europe north of Greece containing the Balkans, Bulgarian and Romania having been called Roumelia by the Ottoman Empire).

That said unlike some I believe the Roman Catholic Church is definitely as Roman as we are, and Catholicity is evinced by the efficacy of your sacraments.

Jesus in the Holy Eucharist has been at the heart of the Catholic Church since the first century. Both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church have validly ordained priests who can consecrate the host.

Your church also has officially said the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrian Church of the East have valid sacraments and a valid clergy, and I agree. Regarding the Oriental Orthodox the Antiochian church, who the Melkite Greek Catholics wish to unite with, has an ecumenical agreement with the Syriac Orthodox (who themselves call Antiochians Melkites - in a sense one could call Antiochians “Melkite Orthodox”), whereby Syriac Orthodox and Antiochian faithful in the Middle East are allowed to receive the sacraments in each other’s churches, and to intermarry, but cannot be received into the other church, since the two churches have recognized their mutual validity. A similar but less expansive agreement exists between the Coptic Orthodox and the Alexandrian Greek Orthodox.

In the case of the Assyrian Church of the East, they are sadly the only Eastern church that will always offer the Eucharist to Roman Catholics (their requirement for partaking is believing the Nicene Creed and the Real Presence, that the Eucharist is really the Body and Blood of Christ our Lord). And thus some degree of intercommunion between Chaldean Catholics, who are the mainly Arabic speaking East Syriac Christians centered around Baghdad, and the mainly Aramaic speaking Assyrians of the Church of the East, does happen. The Chaldeans have also sought to merge with the Assyrians. The Chaldeans often have very good liturgics, although I am annoyed at the current Patriarch of Babylon (a title I love, because it seems designed to tick off anti-Catholics) for not wearing the Shash, the traditional headgear also known as the Shashta or Kossita worn by the bishops of Christian churches in Iraq.

What all these churches have in common, in addition to priests who can consecrate the Eucharist, is a profound devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

 

[Aseyesee]

There are more denominations in the Christian religion then there are in any other religion in the world ... one would have to assume that this is where the leadership of the church as a whole have lead it to ...

 

[ozso]

”Debunking Mariology” is by definition neo-antidicomarianism and crypto-Nestorian (Nestorius himself was motivated by antidicomarian considerations).

The largest Protestant denominations, the Anglicans and Lutherans, are for the most part comprised of those who have a correct understanding of the Theotokos, although not always with the fervent devotion of Martin Luther or the High Church Anglicans.

Does the Lutheran and Catholic church teach every single thing about Mary the Roman Catholic Church teaches? Because that's what I mean by Mariology. The entire RCC teaching about Mary.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Finally, someone who doesn't mince words.

Un-minced inaccuracy.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Does the Lutheran and Catholic church teach every single thing about Mary the Roman Catholic Church teaches? Because that's what I mean by Mariology. The entire RCC teaching about Mary.

I am curious to know what you believe is the entire Catholic teaching about Blessed Mary?

 

[ozso]

Un-minced inaccuracy.

I also was joking.

 

[Strong in Him]

That is true. Holy scripture makes the case for Blessed Mary being the mother of the faithful.

Not to me, it doesn't.

That's a pity No, it's a fact - there' nothing to pity.

I didn't reply because there's nothing it it that needs a reply.

I was hoping for an explanation as to how Mary can be a spiritual mother when it is clear from Scripture that it is God who created us and gives physical, and spiritual, life.

 

[The Liturgist]

Does the Lutheran and Catholic church teach every single thing about Mary the Roman Catholic Church teaches? Because that's what I mean by Mariology. The entire RCC teaching about Mary.

Many high church Anglicans exactly follow Roman mariology, as opposed to the slightly different approach of the Eastern Orthodox (who regard the Blessed Virgin Mary as immaculate but do not agree with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, in part because of the difference it creates between the Theotokos and ourselves and also because using the anti-Pelagian understanding of original sin taught by St. John Cassian rather than that taught by his fellow Latin ascetic St. Augustine of Hippo, who we do nonetheless venerate and greatly love*, it is not required). St. Magnus the Martyr and All Saints Margaret Street (the former celebrates the Mass partially in Latin, the latter uses the formal liturgy from the Book of Common Prayer but has a service every Saturday dedicated to Our Lady of Walsingham.

*Opinions to the contrary from schismatic Old Calendarists not withstanding. The schismatic Old Calendarists and schismatic Old Believers are to the Orthodox like Sedevacantists are to the Roman church - radicals engendered by ill advised liturgical changes. Fortunately in the case of the calendar change it was not implemented church-wide, although unfortunately some Russians in the US were lured into the schismatic Genuine Orthodox Church by people who falsely claimed that ROCOR was turning into a bastion of ecumenism upon the occasion of its restoration of communion with the other canonical Orthodox churches in 2007, and these schismatics managed to seize control of a ROCOR parish in Southern California, and operated it as a trap to lure people thinking it was ROCOR. I would also note these schisms are as close as Orthodoxy has ever come to a Reformation, because the reforming tendency in Orthodoxy always operates in the direction of tradition, and in a sense this was also true of Lutheranism - Martin Luther, like St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague (who are venerated as martyrs by the Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church) sought to restore practices which had fallen out of routine use in the Western church, such as communion in both kinds, while retaining the mass, icons, devotion to the Mother of God, and other essentials - even the Latin mass.

The problem was never Luther, but rather the Radical Reformation and the Restorationists.

Thus unity between the Orthodox and our friends who are Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans and other traditional Protestants, including traditional Methodists alienated by the UMC and many of the Reformed, is not only possible but probable and to a large extent already happening, but in the case of those who adhere to an aliturgical, anti-sacramental and anti-traditional Christianity, fellowship is possible but not unity, since without a reformation movement to promote infant baptism and the Eucharist in these churches, they simply do not have enough in common with us.

 

[PloverWing]

The thing with the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity, is they have very strong and extensive scriptural backing. Which is why practically all of Christianity is in agreement with them.

True. Still, the full development of the doctrines, in terms of natures and essences and persons and so on, took a few centuries. In particular, there are some fine points that the early theologians realized that I wouldn't have seen without their help, if I'd had to sit alone with a Bible and figure out the doctrine of the Incarnation by myself.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Not to me, it doesn't.

You misquoted me, why did you do that. I did not write
That's a pity No, it's a fact - there' nothing to pity.
what I wrote is
That's a pity but it is your free choice decision.

 

[ozso]

I am curious to know what you believe is the entire Catholic teaching about Blessed Mary?

I believe the entire Catholic teaching about Mary is what the Catholic church says is the entire Catholic teaching about Mary.

 

[Strong in Him]

You misquoted me, why did you do that. I did not write
That's a pity No, it's a fact - there' nothing to pity.

I know you didn't - I wrote that. But I didn't realise that, somehow, my reply got attributed to you.

My mistake for not checking.
But it would have been nice if you had said, "I think something's gone wrong with your reply," rather than demanding to know why I had done it.
You knew you hadn't said those words so I cannot have been quoting, or misquoting, you.

 

[ozso]

Many high church Anglicans exactly follow Roman mariology, as opposed to the slightly different approach of the Eastern Orthodox (who regard the Blessed Virgin Mary as immaculate but do not agree with the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, in part because of the difference it creates between the Theotokos and ourselves and also because using the anti-Pelagian understanding of original sin taught by St. John Cassian rather than that taught by his fellow Latin ascetic St. Augustine of Hippo, who we do nonetheless venerate and greatly love*, it is not required). St. Magnus the Martyr and All Saints Margaret Street (the former celebrates the Mass partially in Latin, the latter uses the formal liturgy from the Book of Common Prayer but has a service every Saturday dedicated to Our Lady of Walsingham.

*Opinions to the contrary from schismatic Old Calendarists not withstanding. The schismatic Old Calendarists and schismatic Old Believers are to the Orthodox like Sedevacantists are to the Roman church - radicals engendered by ill advised liturgical changes. Fortunately in the case of the calendar change it was not implemented church-wide, although unfortunately some Russians in the US were lured into the schismatic Genuine Orthodox Church by people who falsely claimed that ROCOR was turning into a bastion of ecumenism upon the occasion of its restoration of communion with the other canonical Orthodox churches in 2007, and these schismatics managed to seize control of a ROCOR parish in Southern California, and operated it as a trap to lure people thinking it was ROCOR. I would also note these schisms are as close as Orthodoxy has ever come to a Reformation, because the reforming tendency in Orthodoxy always operates in the direction of tradition, and in a sense this was also true of Lutheranism - Martin Luther, like St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague (who are venerated as martyrs by the Czech and Slovak Orthodox Church) sought to restore practices which had fallen out of routine use in the Western church, such as communion in both kinds, while retaining the mass, icons, devotion to the Mother of God, and other essentials - even the Latin mass.

The problem was never Luther, but rather the Radical Reformation and the Restorationists.

Thus unity between the Orthodox and our friends who are Catholics, Lutherans, Anglicans and other traditional Protestants, including traditional Methodists alienated by the UMC and many of the Reformed, is not only possible but probable and to a large extent already happening, but in the case of those who adhere to an aliturgical, anti-sacramental and anti-traditional Christianity, fellowship is possible but not unity, since without a reformation movement to promote infant baptism and the Eucharist in these churches, they simply do not have enough in common with us.

According to what I've read:

Beliefs about Mary not affirmed by the Anglican church are: Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Assumption of Mary, Queen of Heaven.

Beliefs about Mary not affirmed by the Lutheran church are: Mary as Intercessor, Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Queen of Heaven.

I think most Protestants will accept Mary Mother of God, once they fully understand what's meant by that. Probably the only real obstacle there is the wording. I think most wouldn't balk at Mary Mother of God the Son and similar. I think the problem is when most hear and see "God" they either picture God the Father or the Godhead, even though they totally believe that Jesus is God.

 

[childeye 2]

Join them or you die, heretics!

Deception is a real thing. I believe I must pray for my enemies particularly if I claim to see.

Jesus was turned over to the Romans to be crucified by those in charge of the temple. Jesus, prayed for his enemies saying they know not what they're doing (I take that to mean that he knows they are deceived). Similarly, Stephen was seen praying for those who would stone him to death.

 

[PloverWing]

Beliefs about Mary not affirmed by the Anglican church are: Immaculate Conception, Perpetual Virginity, Assumption of Mary, Queen of Heaven.

As far as I know, these beliefs are neither affirmed nor denied in the Anglican tradition. That is, they are beliefs that some Anglicans hold, others do not, and we have the freedom of our own discernment. The Thirty-Nine Articles do not mention the Blessed Virgin Mary except in Article 2 which describes the Incarnation. The Oxford Movement nudged some branches of Anglicanism (including the American church) in a more Catholic direction, resulting in the re-introduction of some Catholic devotional practices.

I would guess that many of our members who are former Catholics retain their beliefs about and devotion to Mary, while many members who are former Presbyterians tend to more Protestant views. Both are within the range of faithful Anglican belief and practice.

 

[childeye 2]

There are more denominations in the Christian religion then there are in any other religion in the world ... one would have to assume that this is where the leadership of the church as a whole have lead it to ...

1 Corinthians 1:10-27
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.

12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.

13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;

15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.

20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;


1 Corinthians 3:3-10
3 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

4 For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

 

[ozso]

As far as I know, these beliefs are neither affirmed nor denied in the Anglican tradition. That is, they are beliefs that some Anglicans hold, others do not, and we have the freedom of our own discernment. The Thirty-Nine Articles do not mention the Blessed Virgin Mary except in Article 2 which describes the Incarnation. The Oxford Movement nudged some branches of Anglicanism (including the American church) in a more Catholic direction, resulting in the re-introduction of some Catholic devotional practices.

I would guess that many of our members who are former Catholics retain their beliefs about and devotion to Mary, while many members who are former Presbyterians tend to more Protestant views. Both are within the range of faithful Anglican belief and practice.

That's why I said Anglican church rather than Anglicans (individuals). And I'm not sure how accurate the info is, it's just what I read.

 

[Carl Emerson]

I read these words and think, Blessed Mary most highly. She went through a lot.

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.​

Revelation 11:19-12:2 RSV-CE

she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Revelation 12:5-6 RSV-CE

The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth. Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.
Revelation 12:15-17 RSV-CE

I am pleased to be among the "rest of her children".

These verses refer to the True Israel among the Jews driven into exile until 1948 - we are in a late hour. The True Vine - Children of Abraham - not Mary.