A conversation about unity.

[ozso]

No, some Catholics do say it, but it ain't true. Even the Catechism of the Catholic Church from John Paul II repeats what I posted from Trent.

Interestingly like Francis, John Paul II has been criticized, even by Protestants, for being too inclusive.

Many Catholics believe being ecumenical is to as you say broaden the conditions of salvation.

The standard spiel I've heard many times is the that Catholic understanding is that Protestants are their bothers and sisters in Christ. So all Christians who profess faith in Christ, who are properly baptized, are Christians and members of the Body of Christ. But to be fully incorporated into the Body of Christ one must be a member of the Catholic Church. Now if a Protestant knows/believes the Catholic Church is the one and only true church and Jesus wants them to become a member of the RCC and deliberately rejects that, then their salvation is in question. But that's a different position from a Protestant who doesn't know/believes that, and therefore is not deliberately cutting himself off by deliberately refusing to do what Jesus wants him to do. And so that person, even though they haven't been fully incorporated into the Catholic Church, they still have a saving relationship with God. So if that Christian is not Catholic through no fault of their own, but they're otherwise responding to God's grace, then they'll be saved.

Which can be found here: What Does the Church Teach About Salvation For Protestants? - Catholic Answers.

Personally I don't believe the Roman Catholic Church / Holy Roman Empire is the same Church established by Christ. Because it is too far removed from the teachings of the First Century Church which held up to at least the 4th century. However I believe that Christianity itself, which the RCC is a part of, is the Church, the Ecclesia, the community of those who believe in Christ, are the Church that Jesus established.

 

[Valletta]

Mary can be seen as the mother of the covenant family of God.

Israel is referred to as a woman in several Old Testament passages, particularly in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Hosea. A lot of what John says in Revelation is found in the OT.

Mary is an actual woman, a real person. Jesus and Satan are real and in Revelation as well. Mary is the actual birth mother of Jesus. As I said, there are allusions to Israel. We see a "woman" referred to in John as well. The pain in childbearing sure sounds like that of a woman. She is the Ark of the New Covenant.

 

[concretecamper]

The standard spiel I've heard many times is the that Catholic understanding is that Protestants are their bothers and sisters in Christ. So all Christians who profess faith in Christ, who are properly baptized, are Christians and members of the Body of Christ. But to be fully incorporated into the Body of Christ one must be a member of the Catholic Church.

The Church teaches anyone who is validly Baptized is incorporated into The Body of Christ. Also, I've never understood the term "fully incorporated " anyway. Either you are incorporated or you're not. To me, more eccumenical jargon.

Now if a Protestant knows/believes the Catholic Church is the one and only true church and Jesus wants them to become a member of the RCC and deliberately rejects that, then their salvation is in question.

Yes, this is only one class of person. And in reality, do you know of any protestant that fulfills these conditions? This statement is in the CCC, and it is in there to address no salvation outside the Church, but it really doesn't clear things up in my mind

. But that's a different position from a Protestant who doesn't know/believes that, and therefore is not deliberately cutting himself off by deliberately refusing to do what Jesus wants him to do.

Yep, I've heard that too. However, to believe such a thing is to diminish the Power of The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is constantly drawing people to His Church, to think He doesn't draw some protestants is to me unbelievable.

. And so that person, even though they haven't been fully incorporated into the Catholic Church, they still have a saving relationship with God. So if that Christian is not Catholic through no fault of their own, but they're otherwise responding to God's grace, then they'll be saved.

1. Again, fully incorporated= valid Baptism

2. .What is a saving relationship? Is it a relationship that makes sense to me or is it a relationship that Christ and His Church has laid out.

3. Responding to God's grace how? I'm not the judge, but I have to believe that God is calling all (not just some) to the most personal relationship with Him (which is the Eucharist). I also don't believe that I am free to decide what responding to His grace means to me. It's not about me and what feels good to me, It's about Him. And in Scripture, Jesus established a Church. A visible and authoritative Church. A Church that Baptizes, a Church that teaches, a Church that can bind and loose things here on earth, a Church which Jesus promised to be with until the end of the age. I take Jesus at His word.

 

[ozso]

Mary is an actual woman, a real person. Jesus and Satan are real and in Revelation as well. Mary is the actual birth mother of Jesus. As I said, there are allusions to Israel. We see a "woman" referred to in John as well. The pain in childbearing sure sounds like that of a woman. She is the Ark of the New Covenant.

"Woman" appears 411 times in the OT and 113 times in the NT of the NRSVCE for a total of 524 times.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: woman

www.biblegateway.com

In speaking of Jerusalem, Ezekiel writes:

I passed by you, and saw you flailing about in your blood. As you lay in your blood, I said to you, “Live! 7 and grow up like a plant of the field.” You grew up and became tall and arrived at full womanhood; your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown; yet you were naked and bare. Ezekiel 16:6-7 (NRSVCE).

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

She's not mine.

That's an interesting denial. I wonder why you are so keen to make it?

God created us and made men and women in his image, Genesis 1:26-27.
ALL things were made through the Word (Jesus), John 1:1-3 - that includes Mary.
God chose to give us birth, James 1:18.
We are born again and become children of God through the Spirit, John 3:3, Romans 8:16-17. We have new life when we are in Jesus, 2 Corinthians 5:17.
All this was happening long before Mary was even thought of. In what sense would she be my spiritual mother?

 

[ozso]

The Church teaches anyone who is validly Baptized is incorporated into The Body of Christ. Also, I've never understood the term "fully incorporated " anyway. Either you are incorporated or you're not. To me, more eccumenical jargon.

Yes, this is only one class of person. And in reality, do you know of any protestant that fulfills these conditions? This statement is in the CCC, and it is in there to address no salvation outside the Church, but it really doesn't clear things up in my mind

Yep, I've heard that too. However, to believe such a thing is to diminish the Power of The Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is constantly drawing people to His Church, to think He doesn't draw some protestants is to me unbelievable.

I'm drawn towards Christ and following what Christ said in the Gospels and obeying it and drawn towards what Paul, John, Peter and James taught. But I'm not drawn to particular Roman Catholic dogma that is not actually found in the Gospels or in Holy Scripture. In fact I see it as foreign to what is actually taught by Jesus and His Apostles.

1. Again, fully incorporated= valid Baptism

I've been told by Catholics that valid baptism is being baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit by any Christian whether Protestant or Catholic. Or put another way, valid baptism is exactly what is called for in scripture. No more and no less.

2. .What is a saving relationship? Is it a relationship that makes sense to me or is it a relationship that Christ and His Church has laid out.

A saving relationship in Christ is clearly and conclusively spelled out by Paul and John especially. And Protestantism adheres to all of it. What it doesn't adhere to completely are RCC councils, catechisms, dogmas, traditions and practices that where established centuries afterwards.

3. Responding to God's grace how?

By responding to God's grace as Paul taught about responding to grace. If you went by that alone, you wouldn't see a problem.

I'm not the judge, but I have to believe that God is calling all (not just some) to the most personal relationship with Him (which is the Eucharist). I also don't believe that I am free to decide what responding to His grace means to me.
It's not about me and what feels good to me, It's about Him. And in Scripture, Jesus established a Church. A visible and authoritative Church. A Church that Baptizes, a Church that teaches, a Church that can bind and loose things here on earth, a Church which Jesus promised to be with until the end of the age. I take Jesus at His word.

I agree with you on all of that. But I don't think that's exclusive to the branch of Christianity that calls itself the Roman Catholic Church. History tells me that what's the Roman Catholic Church didn't come into existence until after the 5th centaury of when Christ established His Church. And that the Eastern Orthodox Church is closer to the original Church established by Christ than the RCC.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I read these words and think, Blessed Mary most highly. She went through a lot.

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail. And a great portent appeared in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; she was with child and she cried out in her pangs of birth, in anguish for delivery.​

Revelation 11:19-12:2 RSV-CE

she brought forth a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne, and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which to be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Revelation 12:5-6 RSV-CE

The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with the flood. But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river which the dragon had poured from his mouth. Then the dragon was angry with the woman, and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus.
Revelation 12:15-17 RSV-CE

I am pleased to be among the "rest of her children".

 

[Valletta]

I agree with you on all of that. But I don't think that's exclusive to the branch of Christianity that calls itself the Roman Catholic Church.

We call ourselves the "Catholic Church." The Roman rite is by far the most common but is one of many rites of the Catholic Church.

History tells me that what's the Roman Catholic Church didn't come into existence until after the 5th centaury of when Christ established His Church. And that the Eastern Orthodox Church is closer to the original Church established by Christ than the RCC.

Jesus in the Holy Eucharist has been at the heart of the Catholic Church since the first century. Both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church have validly ordained priests who can consecrate the host.

 

[Carl Emerson]

Mary can be seen as the mother of the covenant family of God.

"I. The Role of the Blessed Mother in the Economy of Salvation
55. The Sacred Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament, as well as ancient Tradition show the role of the Mother of the Saviour in the economy of salvation in an ever clearer light and draw attention to it. The books of the Old Testament describe the history of salvation, by which the coming of Christ into the world was slowly prepared. These earliest documents, as they are read in the Church and are understood in the light of a further and full revelation, bring the figure of the woman, Mother of the Redeemer, into a gradually clearer light. When it is looked at in this way, she is already prophetically foreshadowed in the promise of victory over the serpent which was given to our first parents after their fall into sin.(284) Likewise she is the Virgin who shall conceive and bear a son, whose name will be called Emmanuel.(285) She stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from Him. With her the exalted Daughter of Sion, and after a long expectation of the promise, the times are fulfilled and the new Economy established, when the Son of God took a human nature from her, that He might in the mysteries of His flesh free man from sin.
56. The Father of mercies willed that the incarnation should be preceded by the acceptance of her who was predestined to be the mother of His Son, so that just as a woman contributed to death, so also a woman should contribute to life. That is true in outstanding fashion of the mother of Jesus, who gave to the world Him who is Life itself and who renews all things, and who was enriched by God with the gifts which befit such a role. It is no wonder therefore that the usage prevailed among the Fathers whereby they called the mother of God entirely holy and free from all stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature.(5*) Adorned from the first instant of her conception with the radiance of an entirely unique holiness, the Virgin of Nazareth is greeted, on God's command, by an angel messenger as "full of grace",(286) and to the heavenly messenger she replies: "Behold the handmaid of the Lord, be it done unto me according to thy word".(287) Thus Mary, a daughter of Adam, consenting to the divine Word, became the mother of Jesus, the one and only Mediator. Embracing God's salvific will with a full heart and impeded by no sin, she devoted herself totally as a handmaid of the Lord to the person and work of her Son, under Him and with Him, by the grace of almighty God, serving the mystery of redemption. Rightly therefore the holy Fathers see her as used by God not merely in a passive way, but as freely cooperating in the work of human salvation through faith and obedience. For, as St. Irenaeus says, she "being obedient, became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."(6*) Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert in their preaching, "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience; what the virgin Eve bound through her unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosened by her faith."(7*) Comparing Mary with Eve, they call her "the Mother of the living,"(8*) and still more often they say: "death through Eve, life through Mary."(9*)
57. This union of the Mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to His death it is shown first of all when Mary, arising in haste to go to visit Elizabeth, is greeted by her as blessed because of her belief in the promise of salvation and the precursor leaped with joy in the womb of his mother.(288) This union is manifest also at the birth of Our Lord, who did not diminish His mother's virginal integrity but sanctified it,(10*) when the Mother of God joyfully showed her firstborn Son to the shepherds and Magi. When she presented Him to the Lord in the temple, making the offering of the poor, she heard Simeon foretelling at the same time that her Son would be a sign of contradiction and that a sword would pierce the mother's soul, that out of many hearts thoughts might be revealed.(289) When the Child Jesus was lost and they had sought Him sorrowing, His parents found Him in the temple, taken up with the things that were His Father's business; and they did not understand the word of their Son. His Mother indeed kept these things to be pondered over in her heart.(290)
58. In the public life of Jesus, Mary makes significant appearances. This is so even at the very beginning, when at the marriage feast of Cana, moved with pity, she brought about by her intercession the beginning of miracles of Jesus the Messiah.(291) In the course of her Son's preaching she received the words whereby in extolling a kingdom beyond the calculations and bonds of flesh and blood, He declared blessed(292) those who heard and kept the word of God, as she was faithfully doing.(293) After this manner the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan,(294) grieving exceedingly with her only begotten Son, uniting herself with a maternal heart with His sacrifice, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth. Finally, she was given by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross as a mother to His disciple with these words: "Woman, behold thy son".(295) (11*)
59. But since it has pleased God not to manifest solemnly the mystery of the salvation of the human race before He would pour forth the Spirit promised by Christ, we see the apostles before the day of Pentecost "persevering with one mind in prayer with the women and Mary the Mother of Jesus, and with His brethren",(296) and Mary by her prayers imploring the gift of the Spirit, who had already overshadowed her in the Annunciation. Finally, the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all guilt of original sin,(12*) on the completion of her earthly sojourn, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory,(13*) and exalted by the Lord as Queen of the universe, that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords(297) and the conqueror of sin and death.(l4*)"

Lumen gentium

Dogmatic Constitution on the Church - Lumen gentium

www.vatican.va

I am familiar with the position you hold - Thanks.

I believe differently as indicated.

 

[ozso]

Many Catholics believe being ecumenical is to as you say broaden the conditions of salvation.

I think it's more like Catholics realize they can't legitimately say that other Christians aren't saved or are maybe barely saved or whatever, contrary to what Jesus and His Apostles said about the conditions of salvation.

And what's really happening is they are actually narrowing the conditions of salvation more to what Jesus and His Apostles said.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I think it's more like Catholics realize they can't legitimately say that other Christians aren't saved or are maybe barely saved or whatever,

That's just nonsense. It is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches.

contrary to what Jesus and His Apostles said about the conditions of salvation.

I doubt your ability to discern what Jesus had to say about the "conditions of salvation".

And what's really happening is they are actually narrowing the conditions of salvation more to what Jesus and His Apostles said.

 

[ozso]

We call ourselves the "Catholic Church." The Roman rite is by far the most common but is one of many rites of the Catholic Church.

Jesus in the Holy Eucharist has been at the heart of the Catholic Church since the first century. Both the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church have validly ordained priests who can consecrate the host.

What were the requirements for partaking in the Eucharist in the first century? Was there anything beyond what Jesus and Paul said about it?

 

[ozso]

That's just nonsense. It is NOT what the Catholic Church teaches.

I agree. I was replying what @concretecamper was telling me.

I doubt your ability to discern what Jesus had to say about the "conditions of salvation".

Why?

 

[Strong in Him]

That's an interesting denial. I wonder why you are so keen to make it?

I'm not keen to make it - I was replying to a post which said, something like, "we can make a case from Scripture for Mary being OUR spiritual mother".
She's not mine; simple fact.

And it's interesting that you have ignored what I said about our being created and given life by God.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Why?

Because of what your posts contain. Having read many of them I came to that conclusion.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I'm not keen to make it - I was replying to a post which said, something like, "we can make a case from Scripture for Mary being OUR spiritual mother".

That is true. Holy scripture makes the case for Blessed Mary being the mother of the faithful.

She's not mine; simple fact.

That's a pity but it is your free choice decision.

And it's interesting that you have ignored what I said about our being created and given life by God.

I didn't reply because there's nothing in it that needs a reply.

 

[ozso]

Because of what your posts contain. Having read many of them I came to that conclusion.

In my experience you yourself have difficulty deciphering what I say and tend to get it wrong.

 

[childeye 2]

The son of one of my friends - The son would be about 40 years old now - has been having a conversation with me about the meaning of unity, in the Church. He is a Calvinist christian doing studies in a Baptist-like theological school. As a part of his studies, he's been looking into the question of church unity, and disunity. And since he knows me, he's been asking me questions about the Catholic perspective on the issues he's studying. We have had several rounds of discussion already and it would be unfair of me to reproduce those discussions, without first consulting with him about whether he wants anything that he's written, to appear in this forum. So, I will reproduce only my most recent reply to him regarding The question of unity. It is shown below the line.

---

Thank you for your considered reflections. You rightly note that various ecclesial communities articulate differing conceptions of the Church’s nature and unity. However, from a Catholic perspective, the Church founded by Christ “subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him” (Lumen Gentium, §8). This formulation affirms that while elements of sanctification and truth exist outside her visible structure, the fullness of Christ’s Church remains uniquely and enduringly present in the Catholic communion.

The Catholic critique of Protestant ecclesiology is not a dismissal of sincere faith or doctrinal convergence, but a theological response to the revealed structure of the Church. As Dominus Iesus (§16) clarifies, “the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery are not Churches in the proper sense.” This is not a polemical assertion but a doctrinal distinction rooted in sacramental and apostolic continuity. Unity, in Catholic understanding, is not merely mutual recognition but visible communion in faith, sacraments, and governance.

Your concern for ecumenical charity is well placed. The Church teaches that “many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of her visible structure” (Lumen Gentium, §8), and she earnestly seeks unity through dialogue and mutual understanding. Yet, fidelity to Christ’s intention for His Church requires clarity: unity must be more than doctrinal harmony—it must be sacramental and hierarchical, as instituted by Christ and perpetuated through apostolic succession.

When people ask me, "Of what faith are you?" <--- I see a loaded question. My response is usually ---> "As I see it, since there is a singular Creator of the universe that can be regarded as Thee Eternal Power, then objectively speaking there can only be one Faith". I believe the Holy Spirit gifted me this sight, that I count as wisdom.

Therefore, I don't mean to insult anyone's intelligence, but mind manipulation is a real thing, and I do not want to accept nor affirm the false premise in the question. Similarly, I see a sentiment of unity being expressed in the term Catholic objectively meaning the one universal church in unity through the Holy Spirit of Truth, but then I also see that there's also a subjective sentiment of disunity being expressed through the label ---> "I'm a Catholic".

 

[Daniel Carlton]

Join them or you die, heretics!

 

[ozso]

Join them or you die, heretics!

Finally, someone who doesn't mince words.