A confession of sorts.

[Charlesinflorida]

Hi Trish,

I have been away for a while. (off the net) and missed your post. Sorry.
I think you nay have misunderstood what I was saying.

I believe God gives gifts to women for service in the body just as he does for men. With the one exception, Shepherd. This seems to be reserved for men. I can see several reasons why personally, but I could only speak in generalities, and there are always speciic exception so I will refrain. But if we set that aside, the Lord seems to have well established a pattern that provides protection for the women while still giving them lots of responsibility in the body. We just don't see that extended into the shepherd position. The qualifications for Shepherd (Pastor) is a stable man, moral and HUSBAND to one wife. There were no Woman disciples. There were no women apostles. But this does not mean that women do not provide key unctions as we se in scriptures both OLD and NEW.

In my experience in Messianic faith, women are very much a part of everything else.

Be encouraged, the Lord has work for all his faithful ones.

Charles the Messimaniac

 

[Trish1947]

Charlesinflorida

In my experience in Messianic faith, women are very much a part of everything else.

Be encouraged, the Lord has work for all his faithful ones.


Another question, So If I held the view as far as Messianics, but there is no Messianic community in my town or anywhere close. Do you not go to church at all? I couldn't stand that. I ask this because there just is no Synogogues in my town. There is one, but it is Orthodox.

 

[ShirChadash]

We don't have any Jewish congregations/synagogues at all here in my area, either. As long as you are comfortable and feel your pastoral staff accept and support you in your messianic walk, I don't see any reason why you need to stop attending your christian congregation at this point. We observe Shabbat and the feasts at home, and fellowship with a non-denominational church as well. At this point, it is becoming rather difficult for us to continue to do so, and we are praying the Lord will move us to an area where we may fellowship with other Messianics. But His will be done -- He may just want us to remain here and in "church" for now, and that's what we'll do as long as we feel able and supported by the folks there. Our church is reasonably aware, supports Chosen People ministries faithfully, and other ministries too as I recall... the pastor and his wife are supportive of us as well, since they believe in allowing the Lord to lead as He will.

 

[Charlesinflorida]

In my experience in Messianic faith, women are very much a part of everything else.

Be encouraged, the Lord has work for all his faithful ones.


Another question, So If I held the view as far as Messianics, but there is no Messianic community in my town or anywhere close. Do you not go to church at all? I couldn't stand that. I ask this because there just is no Synogogues in my town. There is one, but it is Orthodox.

I am also without a fellowship right now as I said in the thread (a confession of sorts) I would really have a hard time attending a regular Sunday church. Too many songs and too many creeds would grate againt my ears and my spirit. There is a small group of Torah observant Gentiles but they are Sacred names people and I am unsure about spending too much time there. I visit once in a while but can not really call it home. I am hoping that in the future we might be able to start a home fellowship, (Church). I would recommend starting at home with Sabbath, and taking a Torah course from First Fruits of Zion, like the Ha Yasod. Look at www.ffoz.org

They also have a great selection of books and music. I highly recommend The letter writer by Tim Hegg. Or Fellow Heirs.

Charles the Messimaniac

 

[Trish1947]

We don't have any Jewish congregations/synagogues at all here in my area, either. As long as you are comfortable and feel your pastoral staff accept and support you in your messianic walk, I don't see any reason why you need to stop attending your christian congregation at this point

I am quite comfortable in my church, they dont judge what I believe. And they love Jesus. But I have always kept the actual Sabbath, and not done my own thing. It's a heart felt thing for me. Not even really taught to me by man. I guess it written on my heart. Its what I call my day of rest. Actually Sunday is a pretty hectic day for all of us, just trying to get everybody to church. LOL.

 

[ShirChadash]

Actually Sunday is a pretty hectic day for all of us, just trying to get everybody to church. LOL.

A a mum of 6, I can ditto that!

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I am also without a fellowship right now as I said in the thread (a confession of sorts) I would really have a hard time attending a regular Sunday church. Too many songs and too many creeds would grate againt my ears and my spirit. There is a small group of Torah observant Gentiles but they are Sacred names people and I am unsure about spending too much time there. I visit once in a while but can not really call it home. I am hoping that in the future we might be able to start a home fellowship, (Church). I would recommend starting at home with Sabbath, and taking a Torah course from First Fruits of Zion, like the Ha Yasod. Look at www.ffoz.org

They also have a great selection of books and music. I highly recommend The letter writer by Tim Hegg. Or Fellow Heirs.

Charles the Messimaniac

Is there something wrong with a lot of songs? And what do you mean by "Sacred names people"? Also, what does one do if they have a job that works on Sabbath? Sorry if I ask so many questions. I really am interested.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

We don't have any Jewish congregations/synagogues at all here in my area, either. As long as you are comfortable and feel your pastoral staff accept and support you in your messianic walk, I don't see any reason why you need to stop attending your christian congregation at this point. We observe Shabbat and the feasts at home, and fellowship with a non-denominational church as well. At this point, it is becoming rather difficult for us to continue to do so, and we are praying the Lord will move us to an area where we may fellowship with other Messianics. But His will be done -- He may just want us to remain here and in "church" for now, and that's what we'll do as long as we feel able and supported by the folks there. Our church is reasonably aware, supports Chosen People ministries faithfully, and other ministries too as I recall... the pastor and his wife are supportive of us as well, since they believe in allowing the Lord to lead as He will.

I hope ya'll don't mind me asking all these questions. What is it that is becoming difficult in your fellowshipping with the non-denominational?

 

[Henaynei]

Is there something wrong with a lot of songs? And what do you mean by "Sacred names people"? Also, what does one do if they have a job that works on Sabbath? Sorry if I ask so many questions. I really am interested.

The traditional Jewish service has rather much more prayer and cantorials than "songs" per se. It is a matter of taste.

I am a medical professional and as such have an excellent excuse to work the Shabbat. Even in Orthodox Judaism medical staff work on Shabbat - to save a life and relieve pain is a high mitzvah. However, I have made it my purpose to seek positions, even when it meant a notable decrease in pay for the family, that were not in conflict with the Shabbat. I have lost one dearly loved job that originally agreed to allow me to work every Sunday and have every Shabbat off - and then changed their minds several months later. I found it necessary to bow out and seek another position rather than compromise my committment to the L-rd's Shabbat. The fruit of that is that G-d used my commitment to Shabbat, and my serving my conviction with my actions, to bring another nurse on that staff, a Jewish lady, to Messiah. When you honor G-d someone always benefits It may not be you, but does it need to be??

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

The traditional Jewish service has rather much more prayer and cantorials than "songs" per se. It is a matter of taste.

I am a medical professional and as such have an excellent excuse to work the Shabbat. Even in Orthodox Judaism medical staff work on Shabbat - to save a life and relieve pain is a high mitzvah. However, I have made it my purpose to seek positions, even when it meant a notable decrease in pay for the family, that were not in conflict with the Shabbat. I have lost one dearly loved job that originally agreed to allow me to work every Sunday and have every Shabbat off - and then changed their minds several months later. I found it necessary to bow out and seek another position rather than compromise my committment to the L-rd's Shabbat. The fruit of that is that G-d used my commitment to Shabbat, and my serving my conviction with my actions, to bring another nurse on that staff, a Jewish lady, to Messiah. When you honor G-d someone always benefits It may not be you, but does it need to be??

Well nobody else is paying my bills. I know that God is my supplier, but to quit my job because they want me to work some Saturdays, seems a bit much, at least for now. We don't have Sunday positions where I work.

 

[Henaynei]

Well nobody else is paying my bills. I know that God is my supplier, but to quit my job because they want me to work some Saturdays, seems a bit much, at least for now. We don't have Sunday positions where I work.

Not to worry I doubt very many folks here would suggest that *you* need to do that *unless* you were under conviction to do so. You will find no condemnation here

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Not to worry I doubt very many folks here would suggest that *you* need to do that *unless* you were under conviction to do so. You will find no condemnation here

Thank you. Sorry for my ignorance but if you accept Yeshua as Messiah and Savior, do you also consider yourself Christian? I guess I'm not sure of the reason for the seperation. The disciples were Jewish, but yet they were called Christian too. Or does it have more to do with what Christian has morphed into from then to now?

 

[Henaynei]

Thank you. Sorry for my ignorance but if you accept Yeshua as Messiah and Savior, do you also consider yourself Christian? I guess I'm not sure of the reason for the seperation. The disciples were Jewish, but yet they were called Christian too. Or does it have more to do with what Christian has morphed into from then to now?

I am made aware of the depth of my ignorance every day - may we all be blessed by HaShem and grow in His wisdom......

Actually the Jewish believers were never called Christians in scripture - only the non-Jewish/Gentile believers were ever called Christians. This first happened in Antioch, I believe. A careful study will support this

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

I am made aware of the depth of my ignorance every day - may we all be blessed by HaShem and grow in His wisdom......

Actually the Jewish believers were never called Christians in scripture - only the non-Jewish/Gentile believers were ever called Christians. This first happened in Antioch, I believe. A careful study will support this

OK. . .so why still a separation from the "term" and were the disciple's converting the Gentile to Jewish ways along with the gospel?

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Is there something wrong with a lot of songs? And what do you mean by "Sacred names people"? Also, what does one do if they have a job that works on Sabbath? Sorry if I ask so many questions. I really am interested.

Nothing wrong with a lot of songs. We have/had a good hour of songs and Hebraic dance (Davidic worship). Our music is Hebraic in form, though mostly contemporary. It is very uplifting. Most of the songs rather than having lyrics about me, my devotion, you know love songs to God, our songs are mostly scripture which we are singing back to the Lord. If you have never listened to any Messianic Music you are missing a great blessing.

Almost anything from Galilee of the nations is great. Or Paul Wilbur, Joel Chernoff, Lamb, The disc Adonai, or Elohim, or Go though the gates by the segals.

Some of the traditional church songs have statements of doctrine in them and things that I would not consider scriptural. (Though it has been so long, I can't remember any right off for examples.

Sacred names people. It is a cult within the fringe area of Messianics, which has established a dogmatic doctrine about the so called correct name of Yeshua; they say Yahashua, Because they believe this to be the correct name because it means Yah my Salvation (Yah being the name of God in short form from YHVH). They have become very legalistic in some areas. If you do a search on Google you will find lots of links for them. I thought they would have backed off a little when the ostuary box of Yaacov was found. Its inscription is Yaacov, Ben Yosheph, Achi Yeshua. not Yahhashuah, or yahshuah. (James the son of Joseph brother of Yeshua)

Working on Sabbath. Well some like Heneynei are medical and this is OK, so would all emergency services and national defense. I used to work a rotation of shifts such that about half of my Sabbaths, I had to work at least part of that 24 hours. It greived me, but I would take it as easy as possible at work, which I was a maintanence tech for a large plant and on call for everyone. But I kept praying that something would change so that I didn't have to work Sabbath. My hearts desire was to do what the Lord wanted. And something did change and now I can observe Sabbath.

I know other people who simply refused to take a job if it meant working Sabbath. So I guess like everything, there is Gods word, prayer and working it out. Like Paul says work out your own salvation in fear and trembling. PH 2:12 (Isn't that a funny thing to say if all you have to do is believe in Jesus? And he says they have been doing so and should continue in his absence)

There is a day coming for all of us when only the Lords law will be done, and no one will have to work Sabbath.

Charles the Messimaniac

 

[Charlesinflorida]

OK. . .so why still a separation from the "term" and were the disciple's converting the Gentile to Jewish ways along with the gospel?

Yes, After accepting Yeshua they were given the 4 things to do, to show their separation from Paganism, and to keep them from offending the Jewish brothers with whom they would be sharing their synagogue. Look at the Apostolic decree in Act 15:20, and notice that these 4 things are not an end goal, but a point of entry for those who are "in the process " of turning to faith in Yeshua. Then in the next line they are to obey these four laws, 1 from Torah, one Rabbinical and two Kosher laws, and then... They are to go to the sysnagogues in their own cities where Moses (Torah) is taught every Shabbat.

CIF

 

[Charlesinflorida]

Thank you. Sorry for my ignorance but if you accept Yeshua as Messiah and Savior, do you also consider yourself Christian? I guess I'm not sure of the reason for the seperation. The disciples were Jewish, but yet they were called Christian too. Or does it have more to do with what Christian has morphed into from then to now?

In scripute we see that Yeshua does not destroy the law, and further he says that we must heep all the commandments to have a place in the Kingdom of heaven Matt 5:17. Some will say this is only for the Jews and not for the church which is under a separate covenant. But that is not true. The New covenant is with Israel and Judah not the church or Gentiles. And in the great commission the Lord says, "Go Ye into all the nations making disciples of all men", (Gentiles). . . telling them to do those (same) things I have commanded you to do. (My paraphrase, you can look it up at the end of Matt. ) We are now part of Israel, and need to follow the terms of the covenant with Israel. The Torah is a Marriage contract betwen God and his bride (Israel).

All of Pauls teachings is concerned with Gentiles becoming part of Israel. Never is there a teaching or doctrine for Jews (or Israel) to become part of the Gentiles or Pagans. God saves us (Exodus from Egypt) and then gives us the Law (Sinai) to make us holy people so that we can enter the Kingdom (promised land).

CIF

 

[Henaynei]

OK. . .so why still a separation from the "term" and were the disciple's converting the Gentile to Jewish ways along with the gospel?

Actually, it couldn't be simpler.....

The Jews did not "convert" *to* or *from* anything. They were Jewish and they remained Jewish. Not Jewish AND something else. Just Jewish. They followed the Messiah G-d had been promising the Jews all along. A VERY Jewish thing to do. They needed no new title or name.

It was the gentiles who were converting - from their pagan faith to faith in the G-d of Torah. Since they were NOT Jews and they were no longer pagans and they were following the Jewish Messiah (called christos in their language) they were called Christians (from christos).

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

Charles,

In your first post you said, "Even the name JESUS, is uncomfortable for me, because I associate it with all the stuff that goes with it. What did you mean by that? What is the difference between the Gentile saying Jesus and the Jew saying Yeshua, other than language differences.

 

[SpiritPsalmist]

In scripute we see that Yeshua does not destroy the law, and further he says that we must heep all the commandments to have a place in the Kingdom of heaven Matt 5:17. Some will say this is only for the Jews and not for the church which is under a separate covenant. But that is not true. The New covenant is with Israel and Judah not the church or Gentiles. And in the great commission the Lord says, "Go Ye into all the nations making disciples of all men", (Gentiles). . . telling them to do those (same) things I have commanded you to do. (My paraphrase, you can look it up at the end of Matt. ) We are now part of Israel, and need to follow the terms of the covenant with Israel. The Torah is a Marriage contract betwen God and his bride (Israel).

All of Pauls teachings is concerned with Gentiles becoming part of Israel. Never is there a teaching or doctrine for Jews (or Israel) to become part of the Gentiles or Pagans. God saves us (Exodus from Egypt) and then gives us the Law (Sinai) to make us holy people so that we can enter the Kingdom (promised land).

CIF

So would you say then that unless the Gentile is strictly following all of Pauls teaching then they are not going to be part of the Kingdom? If that is the case is'nt that salvation by works?