A Christians questions about Orthodoxy

[Nemo0213]

OK so I originally posted this in a sticky. It was suggested that instead of continuing in the sticky that I start a new thread. So here is my original post...


I am a Christian. I am not here to start a theological debate or argument. I just wanted to know exactly what orthodoxy is or means to some one who is orthodox, before I go and read a bunch of onesided literature. I don't know much about this branch of christianity because there is only one orthodox church in a 150 mile radius of me. And I think thats a greek orthodox. Is there more than one kind of orthodox church? What are the basic beliefs? etc. etc. etc...

 

[Oblio]

Is there more than one kind of orthodox church?

Theologically no.

There are different 'flavors' if you will, generally taking on the culture of the region that the Church is within. e.g. Greek, Russian, Romanian ... We all share exactly the same faith.

 

[Oblio]

What are the basic beliefs?

The best and concise summary is the Nicean/Constantinopolitan Creed.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Okay, here is the “quick and dirty” scoop on Orthodoxy.

The Orthodox Church traces its roots back to the day of Pentecost when the Holy Spirit descended on the Apostles in the Upper Room. It considers the twelve Apostles to be the founders of the Church, and that Christ is the head of the Church.

Up until 1054 A.D. there was only one Church. It was simply known as the Christian faith, and did not have a denominational name attached to it. Then on a warm afternoon in 1054, during Divine Liturgy (Orthodox term for service where the Eucharist is consecrated and served) in the Cathedral of Holy Wisdom in Constantinople, representatives from Rome came in, and in a not-so-nice manner formally announced that the West was splitting from the East.

After the split, the Western Church was known as the Roman Catholic Church, and the Eastern Church became known as the Eastern Orthodox Church. (Not to be confused with the Oriental Orthodox or Coptic Orthodox Churches.)

Eastern Orthodoxy worships in a liturgical fashion. We use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, which was written about 1500 years ago. Like the Roman Catholic Church we have Bishops, Priests, Deacons, Sub-deacons, Readers, etc. With the exception of the Bishops who must be celibate, all of our clergy can marry. (Bishops can be widowed.) Also, unlike the Roman Catholic Church, we do not have one Supreme Bishop. It is a conciliar church where all of the Bishops are “first amongst equals.”

The beliefs of the Orthodox Church are based upon the Holy Traditions handed down to us by the twelve Apostles, the writings of the Holy Scriptures (the Bible), the receiving of the Holy Mysteries (baptism, chrismation, communion, marriage, priesthood, and holy unction/healing), the teachings and writings of the Holy Fathers (and Mothers), and the Divine Liturgy.

In regards to your question about the Greek Orthodox Church, Orthodoxy has always been preached in the vernacular, and has always “flavored” itself to the different customs and traditions of the land that it was being preached in. So when the immigrants of Eastern Europe came over to the United States, they brought with them the traditions, customs, and the faith of their homeland. Thus, you will see different Orthodox Churches with different nationalities before the word “Orthodox” in the Church name. This is how we have Russian, Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, Ukrainian, etc. Orthodox Churches in the United States. (Years ago this was also common in Catholic Churches; Polish Catholic, Italian Catholic, Irish Catholic, etc.) As years have passed, the Churches have become less “ethnic” (some still remaining more ethnic than others) and we are working towards a true “North American” Orthodox Church. (But that’s a whoooole other discussion in and of itself! )

Here are some great websites that will teach you more about Orthodoxy:

Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America
Orthodox Church in America
The Self-Ruled Antiochian Christian Orthodox Church in America
OrthodoxWiki (Orthodox version of Wikipedia)


Hope this helps!

In XC,

Maureen

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

The best and concise summary is the Nicean/Constantinopolitan Creed.

Here is the Creed if you are unfamiliar with it:

The Symbol of Faith (also known as the Nicene Creed)

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of Heaven and Earth and of all things visible and invisible.
And in the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the only-begotten, begotten of the Father before all ages. Light of light; true God of true God; begotten, not made; of one essence with the Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from Heaven, and was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary, and became man. And He was crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered, and was buried. And the third day He arose again, according to the Scriptures, and ascended into Heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again with glory to judge the living and the dead; Whose Kingdom shall have no end.
And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, Who proceeds from the Father; Who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; Who spoke by the prophets.
In one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins. I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.​

 

[Oblio]

Nemo,

Feel free to expand upong the etc. etc. etc. in your OP with more specific or followup questions to some of the answers given

 

[Orthosdoxa]

http://stienekel.tripod.com/

My website for Orthodoxy 101.

Welcome.

LK

 

[Nemo0213]

Ok so anonykat, I went to your tripod website and clicked on the Phil thompson website that you suggested. In reading about some of the differences in the orthodox churches and the western churches, I found this unique(to me anyways) bit of information;

[font=Arial, Helvetica]According to the Orthodox, God himself is both heaven and hell, reward and punishment. All men have been created to see God unceasingly in His uncreated glory. Whether God will be for each man heaven or hell, reward or punishment, depends on man’s response to God’s love and on man’s transformation from the state of selfish and self-centered love, to Godlike love which does not seek its own ends.


God himself is heaven and hell? This is truly something new to me. What do you guys think about this? Is this a widely accepted orthodox view? Or is this like a roman catholic doctrine that most lay people aren't even aware of?

Here is something else;

[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica]While the brain (according to the Orthodox) is the center of human adaptation to the environment, the noetic faculty in the "heart" is the primary organ for communion with God. The fall of man or the state of inherited sin is: a) the failure of the noetic faculty to function properly, or to function at all; b) its confusion with the functions of the brain and the body in general; and c) its resulting enslavement to the environment.

[/font][font=Arial, Helvetica]Each individual experiences the fall of his own noetic faculty. One can see why the Augustinian (Latin, Frankish) understanding of the fall of man as an inherited guilt for the sin of Adam and Eve is not, and cannot, be accepted by the Orthodox tradition

So the Fall of man is not carrying the original sin of Adam, but the seperation or covering of the noetic faculty from God? So when Adam fell and God kicked him out of Eden, Adams seperation from god was a covering of his noetic ability which was then passed down from generation to generation?

This is something along the lines of what I have been trying to tell my friends lately;

[/font]
[font=Arial, Helvetica]There is no metaphysical criterion for distinguishing between good and bad people. It is much more correct to distinguish between ill and more healthy persons. The sick ones are those whose noetic faculty is either not functioning, or functioning poorly, and the healthier ones are those whose noetic faculty is being cleansed and illumined

I keep trying to tell them there is no Good and Evil. There is only God and Sin. So since we are not God we are sinful same as the crack addict living in the slums, or the thief just trying to make a buck, the only thing that seperates us from them is what side of the "tracks" we live on. The qoute above rings truer with me than the teaching I have had so far about being completely clean because I have "accepted Jesus into my heart". Again is this a widely known doctrine of the orthodox church or a little known one?


peace
[/font]

 

[Ioan cel Nou]

Nemo,

I'd say that, whilst the wording of the doctrines as quoted are rather too 'flowery' for a lot of lay people, they are widely held doctrines. You'll likely not hear many people talking of noetic faculties, but the understanding that the fall lead to separation from God, the sickness of sin and hence death, rather than some inherited guilt would be familiar to all, for instance (except the most ignorant nominal Orthodox - but such people exist in all churches).

The idea that heaven and hell are states experienced by the individual, where the love of God is felt as wonderful or torment depending on the disposition of the heart of the individual is a common one. (And the discovery of this idea seems to have lead quite a lot of Protestants towards conversion to Orthodoxy).

The sin as illness, Church as hospital metaphor is without doubt the predominant one in Orthodox theology. This doesn't mean that there are no juridical aspects to our theology at all, but such aspects are understood within a faith that overall sees sinners as sick rather than criminals. This also explains why we use economia so much with regards to applying canons - they aren't rules so much as guidelines, medicines if you like, that must be tailored to the individual. This is another aspect of Orthodoxy that I and many other ex-Protestant converts I know, find to ring truer than the more juridical western approach.

I hope this helps.

James

 

[eoe]

[font=Arial, Helvetica]There is no metaphysical criterion for distinguishing between good and bad people. It is much more correct to distinguish between ill and more healthy persons. The sick ones are those whose noetic faculty is either not functioning, or functioning poorly, and the healthier ones are those whose noetic faculty is being cleansed and illumined

I keep trying to tell them there is no Good and Evil. There is only God and Sin. So since we are not God we are sinful same as the crack addict living in the slums, or the thief just trying to make a buck, the only thing that seperates us from them is what side of the "tracks" we live on.[/font]

I think you are understanding it pretty well. We have a saying that the Church is a spiritual Hospital that exists to heal those that are in it.

Since we have no way of knowing what anyone else's sin is we assume that we are the worst of sinners. I heard that we are even more pitiable than the demons because we are slaves to the demons.
[font=Arial, Helvetica]

The qoute above rings truer with me than the teaching I have had so far about being completely clean because I have "accepted Jesus into my heart".

Yup. It only gets better from there. Where the protestants have eliminated that which they saw as unnecessary to salvation - the Orthodox preserve the fullness of the faith. We do not presume to make decisions on what is necessary or not.

There is a deep mystical quality to Christianity that the west has totally turned it's back on. Deep meditation techniques, inner prayer, prayer of the heart, self activating prayer. I myself have only scratched the surface and I am blown away at the depth of the theology and mysticism. Where in protestant theology there is simplicity - in Orthodox theology there is depth. If you have not read "The Way of a Pilgrim" I would highly suggest reading it. You can get it on the cheap from one of the major orthodx booksellers.

Again is this a widely known doctrine of the orthodox church or a little known one?

I would say it is pretty widely known. The reason I say this is that it is the basis of the idea of Theosis (Growing in the likeness of God) which is a very Orthodox idea.

[/font]HERE is another really good article that you might enjoy. It explains some of the other differences you might find in Orthodoxy.

 

[Annoula]

Orthodoxy is the faith of "psychotherapy". the believer is asked to give therapy to his/her psychi = soul through the Orthodox practices.


for me Orthodoxy is the Light, and the Life. and i am still so new to this...

 

[moses916]

Nemo, the doctrines of hell in the west are unknown to the Orthodox, the Orthodox's position has always been "in the next life you either experience joy or torment in the presence of God", the whole idea of these places of hell and heaven are recent doctrines, the bible tells us God is a consuming fire:

Hebrews 12:28-29 "Serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear. For our God is a consuming fire."

We need to put God on in this life, so we can experience joy and happiness in God's presence. Otherwise, the wicked will experience torment and fire in the presence of God.

these are good articles to read, however i suggest you bookmark them for now and continue to ask questions regarding this and then read it when you feel comfortable... the articles are very bold, and it may seem at times that it points fingers at the western faiths.

http://www.orthodoxpress.org/parish/river_of_fire.htm

http://aggreen.net/beliefs/heaven_hell.html

 

[Nemo0213]

So is there a Orthodox Pope, or is there a council of elders and bishops? Does the Orthodox church use the same bible as protestants? You know the "traditional" 66;
1. The First Book of Moses Called Genesis 50 1533 2. The Second Book of Moses Called Exodus 40 1213 3. The Third Book of Moses Called Leviticus 27 859 4. The Fourth Book of Moses Called Numbers 36 1288 5. The Fifth Book of Moses Called Deuteronomy 34 959 II. Old Testament Narrative 6. The Book of Joshua 24 658 7. The Book of Judges 21 618 8. The Book of Ruth 4 85 9. The First Book of Samuel 31 810 10. The Second Book of Samuel 24 695 11. The First Book of Kings 22 816 12. The Second Book of Kings 25 719 13. The First Book of Chronicles 29 942 14. The Second Book of Chronicles 36 822 15. The Book of Ezra 10 280 16. The Book of Nehemiah 13 406 17. The Book of Esther 10 167 III. Wisdom Literature 18. The Book of Job 42 1070 19. The Book of Psalms 150 2461 20. The Book of Proverbs 31 915 21. The Book of Ecclesiastes 12 222 22. The Song of Songs (or Song of Solomon or Canticles) 8 117 IV. Major Prophets 23. The Book of Isaiah 66 1292 24. The Book of Jeremiah 52 1364 25. The Book of Lamentations 5 154 26. The Book of Ezekiel 48 1273 27. The Book of Daniel 12 357 V. Minor Prophets 28. The Book of Hosea 14 197 29. The Book of Joel 3 73 30. The Book of Amos 9 146 31. The Book of Obadiah 1 21 32. The Book of Jonah 4 48 33. The Book of Micah 7 105 34. The Book of Nahum 3 47 35. The Book of Habakkuk 3 56 36. The Book of Zephaniah 3 53 37. The Book of Haggai 2 38 38. The Book of Zechariah 14 211 39. The Book of Malachi 4 55 VI. New Testament Narrative 40. The Gospel According to Matthew 28 1071 41. The Gospel According to Mark 16 678 42. The Gospel According to Luke 24 1151 43. The Gospel According to John 21 879 44. The Acts of the Apostles 28 1007 VII. Pauline Epistles 45. The Epistle of Paul to the Romans 16 433 46. The First Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians 16 437 47. The Second Epistle of Paul to the Corinthians 13 257 48. The Epistle of Paul to the Galatians 6 149 49. The Epistle of Paul to the Ephesians 6 155 50. The Epistle of Paul to the Philippians 4 104 51. The Epistle of Paul to the Colossians 4 95 52. The First Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians 5 89 53. The Second Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians 3 47 54. The First Epistle of Paul to Timothy 6 113 55. The Second Epistle of Paul to Timothy 4 83 56. The Epistle of Paul to Titus 3 46 57. The Epistle of Paul to Philemon 1 25 VIII. General Epistles 58. The Epistle to the Hebrews 13 303 59. The General Epistle of James 5 108 60. The First Epistle of Peter 5 105 61. The Second Epistle of Peter 3 61 62. The First Epistle of John 5 105 63. The Second Epistle of John 1 13 64. The Third Epistle of John 1 14 65. The Epistle of Jude 1 25 IX. Apocalyptic Epistle 66. The Book of Revelation (or The Apocalypse of John)
What is the stand about "extra"-biblical books such as the Book of Enoch? Most protestants look down on anything that is not directly in the bible, unless it comes from a Billy Graham, Joel Osteen, or T.D. Jakes.

 

[Nemo0213]

I also read that Orthodox Priests are allowed to marry? But not Bishops. Why? What other traditions are practised in the Orthodox church? Most Protestants have baptisms, healing services(or laying on of hands), communion, consecrations(parents saying they will raise their child in a godly way, because baptism is a decision for a mind that can establish between right and wrong), Intercessory prayer, some even speak in tongues. Depending on which denomination you belong too some of that list are salvation issues. Most have a us or them mentallity, your either with us or against us. Where as what I have read so far the Orthodox church has a more "loving", all of us are the same jsut different stages in a spiritual walk. Where some of us will see gods presence as bliss and others will see it as punishment.

 

[Oblio]

So is there a Orthodox Pope, or is there a council of elders and bishops?

No Pope. The Church is governed in a concilliar manner. Authority for each region resides in that region's Bishop.

Does the Orthodox church use the same bible as protestants? You know the "traditional" 66;

We reject the abridgement of Holy Scriptures by Luther 1000 years after the canon was established in the 4th c by the Church.

 

[Oblio]

I also read that Orthodox Priests are allowed to marry? But not Bishops. Why?

Not precisely true. A married man may be ordained, but an ordained man may not marry.

After early persecutions ended in the Church, monasticism became the primary method for ascetic endeavors. Monastics are unmarried, and it is from their ranks that we select our Bishops.

 

[countrymouse33ad]

Not precisely true. A married man may be ordained, but an ordained man may not marry.

After early persecutions ended in the Church, monasticism became the primary method for ascetic endeavors. Monastics are unmarried, and it is from their ranks that we select our Bishops.

If I may add... it also seems that the Bishop's duties eventually became too much to ask of a married man, so part of the reason is practical.

 

[HandmaidenOfGod]

Nemo,

If you check out the "Rainbow Books" section of the OCA website, you will learn a lot about our faith in a concise, easy to read manner.

It is always best to "go to the source" (i.e. priest or Diocese website) to learn about Orthodoxy, rather than from Internet Message boards.

You may also want to pick up a copy of +Bishop Kallistos Ware's "The Orthodox Church."

If you go to orthodoxyinamerica.org you can find a parish near you. The best way to learn about Orthodoxy is to "come and see" so I encourage you to visit your local Orthodox Church for more information.

Hope this helps,

Maureen

 

[Nemo0213]

??? Could you explain this a little better please?

 

[Oblio]

Because of abuses by some in the RCC, Luther removed books that supported the practices and doctrines that were abused. There was nothing wrong with the doctrines and practices themselves, but since Luther did not have the authority of the Western Church, airbrushing them out of Christianity was the only way he could both go by Scripture Alone and and reform the abuses. He threw the proverbial baby out with the bathwater.