A Challenge to Christian Zionists

[BABerean2]

That above is called Replacement Theology and it is a False teaching.
God's Covenant to Israel is Eternal - the Bible says so.

"Replacement Theology" is replacing the one seed, with the many seeds in Galatians 3:16.

It is replacing the children of the promise, with the children of the flesh in Romans 9:8.

The "eternal covenant" is found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Matthew 26:28, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 12:18-24, and Hebrews 13:20.

You are ignoring who is the ultimate fulfillment of Israel in Matthew 1:1.

You are ignoring Peter addressing the crowd as "all the house of Israel" on the Day of Pentecost, when about 3,000 Israelites became a part of the New Covenant Church.
The Church did not replace Israel. On that day part of Israel became the Church, which agrees perfectly with Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 9:27, and Romans 11:1-5.

You are ignoring Paul's warning about using genealogies in Titus 3:9.

Based on Galatians 3:16-29, I am the seed of Abraham through Christ, and heir to the promise.

Those who reject Christ are found below.

1Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
1Jn 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.


2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.


You seem to be promoting some form of Dual Covenant Theology.

..........................................................

The "heir" to the land is found below.

Mat 21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
Mat 21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
Mat 21:39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
Mat 21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
Mat 21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
Mat 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
Mat 21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.


See 1 Peter 2:4-10 to find out who is the "holy nation" which accepted the "chief cornerstone".

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[Pedra]

This thread is about Christian Zionism. God made an eternal covenant with Abraham and gave the land to the Jews for the Nation of Israel even more land than is currently held.
The promises God made to Israel have not been turned over to the Church as some denominations wrongly claim. They will say everytime the bible says israel it means the church- That is called Replacement theology and it is a false teaching.

 

[BABerean2]

This thread is about Christian Zionism. God made an eternal covenant with Abraham and gave the land to the Jews for the Nation of Israel even more land than is currently held.
The promises God made to Israel have not been turned over to the Church as some denominations wrongly claim. They will say everytime the bible says israel it means the church- That is called Replacement theology and it is a false teaching.

The claim that a person can be in a right relationship with God, based on who their parents would be is one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church.

Who was James speaking to in the passage below?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

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[jgr]

I totally reject your claims about this, and am not interested in arguing with you about it.

Do you reject Scripture's claims?

As you wish.

 

[Biblewriter]

Do you reject Scripture's claims?

As you wish.

I accept everything the Bible says. What I reject is your interpretation of what it says.

 

[Pedra]

The claim that a person can be in a right relationship with God, based on who their parents would be is one of the greatest deceptions in the history of the Church.

Who was James speaking to in the passage below?

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

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Too bad Chuck has a platform like the internet because he is not a good teacher of the Bible or Bible prophecy & is leading people astray.

 

[BABerean2]

Too bad Chuck has a platform like the internet because he is not a good teacher of the Bible or Bible prophecy & is leading people astray.

Pastor Baldwin used to teach your doctrine, because it was what he was taught in Bible college.

However, he finally let the doctrine go because he could not get it to agree with his Bible.

The same thing happened to George Mueller, who was one of the original Plymouth Brethren.
Mueller said he had to chose between Darby and his Bible.
Mueller decided to pick the Bible.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Unlike some people, Pastor Baldwin, and George Mueller were not willing to ignore 1 John 2:22-23.

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[jgr]

I accept everything the Bible says. What I reject is your interpretation of what it says.

What is the interpretation of dispensationalists other than yourself?

From one John Nelson Darby:

"I read Verse 12 (Genesis 17:12) thus: "And father of circumcision [that is, of true separation to God, such as God owns], not only to those of the circumcision, but to those who walk in the steps of the faith of Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised." That is, God recognises them (believers from among the Gentiles) as being truly circumcised."

Hey, I think I'll replace my interpretation with his.

 

[Pedra]

Pastor Baldwin used to teach your doctrine, because it was what he was taught in Bible college.

However, he finally let the doctrine go because he could not get it to agree with his Bible.

The same thing happened to George Mueller, who was one of the original Plymouth Brethren.
Mueller said he had to chose between Darby and his Bible.
Mueller decided to pick the Bible.


PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Unlike some people, Pastor Baldwin, and George Mueller were not willing to ignore 1 John 2:22-23.

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No one is ignoring 1John2: There is no excuse for anti-semitism.
It does not matter where chuck started out , what matters is where he will finish. I pray for his soul. False teachers abound now as Jesus and Apostle Paul warned, those who are not Holy Spirit indwelled and who cannot rightly divide scripture & try to mislead others. The word of God says that LORD GOD has a purpose and a plan for Israel and GOD does not change, He watches over Israel, He called them back to HIS land that HE gave them, the LORD God keeps HIS promises & all of Israel will be saved. When the time of the gentiles is over & His church is raptured, GOD will turn His focus upon Israel.

 

[jgr]

No one is ignoring 1John2: There is no excuse for anti-semitism.
It does not matter where chuck started out , what matters is where he will finish. I pray for his soul. False teachers abound now as Jesus and Apostle Paul warned, those who are not Holy Spirit indwelled and who cannot rightly divide scripture & try to mislead others. The word of God says that LORD GOD has a purpose and a plan for Israel and GOD does not change, He watches over Israel, He called them back to HIS land that HE gave them, the LORD God keeps HIS promises & all of Israel will be saved. When the time of the gentiles is over & His church is raptured, GOD will turn His focus upon Israel.

Who is the Israel that God recognizes? What are His identification and inclusion criteria?

1. Israeli citizens
2. Israeli residents
3. Jews by DNA
4. Jews by religion
5. Jews by culture
6. Jews faithful and obedient to Christ

 

[Biblewriter]

Who is the Israel that God recognizes? What are His identification and inclusion criteria?

1. Israeli citizens
2. Israeli residents
3. Jews by DNA
4. Jews by religion
5. Jews by culture
6. Jews faithful and obedient to Christ

None of the above.

 

[BABerean2]

No one is ignoring 1John2: There is no excuse for anti-semitism.
It does not matter where chuck started out , what matters is where he will finish. I pray for his soul. False teachers abound now as Jesus and Apostle Paul warned, those who are not Holy Spirit indwelled and who cannot rightly divide scripture & try to mislead others. The word of God says that LORD GOD has a purpose and a plan for Israel and GOD does not change, He watches over Israel, He called them back to HIS land that HE gave them, the LORD God keeps HIS promises & all of Israel will be saved. When the time of the gentiles is over & His church is raptured, GOD will turn His focus upon Israel.

The claim that those who reject modern Dispensational Theology are "antisemitic" is far from the truth, and a sad commentary for the modern Church.
I have had Christians in my home for Bible study who were from Jewish backgrounds.

You do not need to pray for Pastor Chuck Baldwin's soul.
You need to pray for all of those who reject God's Son, including Orthodox Jews, whose source of truth is the Babylonian Talmud, which says Christ is the son of Mary and a Roman soldier.

Based on Luke 21:20-28, the "times of the Gentiles" ends at the future Second Coming of Christ.

Once a person comes to understand the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:18-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with it.


The creator of the modern State of Israel is found below.
During this interview, how many times does he give God the credit?

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[Biblewriter]

Once you realize the absolutely irrevocable nature of God's promise to the ancient nation of Israel, your entire doctrine falls apart.

35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name): 36 "If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the LORD, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37 Thus says the LORD: "If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the LORD. Jeremiah 31:35-37

The fact that "the seed of Israel" are here twice mentioned in a plural context makes it exceedingly clear that this does not mean the single "seed of Abraham" which is Christ, and who is never called "the seed of Israel."

This is stressed in the New Testament by saying of those Jews that had not received the gospel of Jesus Christ, that:

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

Then, immediately after saying this, the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, continued:

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:30-31

 

[jgr]

None of the above.

My my, God doesn't even include those faithful and obedient to His Son.

What religion did you say that is, again?

 

[BABerean2]

The fact that "the seed of Israel" are here twice mentioned in a plural context makes it exceedingly clear that this does not mean the single "seed of Abraham" which is Christ, and who is never called "the seed of Israel."

Ignore the scripture found below, and maybe you can make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.


Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
(Any honest Bible scholar knows that Jacob is found in this genealogy between Abraham and David, and therefore Christ is the "seed" of Jacob. Do you deny this fact?)

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
(Who was Peter speaking to on the Day of Pentecost?)

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(Did Paul say he was no longer an Israelite after his conversion?)

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[keras]

Once you realize the absolutely irrevocable nature of God's promise to the ancient nation of Israel, your entire doctrine falls apart.

So do you believe that the Jews are the only representatives of the 'ancient nation of Israel'?
A belief like that requires much ignoring of historical facts, plus the complete misunderstanding of what Jesus came to do on earth.
Jesus was in the land of the Jewish people when He said He was sent to save the lost House of Israel.
If He meant just those people there at that time and their descendants, then He failed miserably.
But, as we see from how the Western peoples and many from other races, nations and languages; HAVE accepted Christianity, then ipso facto: they are the true House of Israel.

 

[jgr]

Once you realize the absolutely irrevocable nature of God's promise to the ancient nation of Israel, your entire doctrine falls apart.

35 Thus says the LORD, Who gives the sun for a light by day, The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night, Who disturbs the sea, And its waves roar (The LORD of hosts is His name): 36 "If those ordinances depart From before Me, says the LORD, Then the seed of Israel shall also cease From being a nation before Me forever." 37 Thus says the LORD: "If heaven above can be measured, And the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel For all that they have done, says the LORD. Jeremiah 31:35-37

The fact that "the seed of Israel" are here twice mentioned in a plural context makes it exceedingly clear that this does not mean the single "seed of Abraham" which is Christ, and who is never called "the seed of Israel."

This is stressed in the New Testament by saying of those Jews that had not received the gospel of Jesus Christ, that:

28 Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:28-29

Then, immediately after saying this, the Holy Spirit, speaking through Paul, continued:

30 For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31 even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. Romans 11:30-31

Do you stop singing at the second verse below?

All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name

1.
All hail the power of Jesus' name!
Let angels prostrate fall;
bring forth the royal diadem,
and crown Him Lord of all.
Bring forth the royal diadem,
and crown Him Lord of all.

2.
Ye chosen seed of Israel's race,
ye ransomed from the Fall,
hail Him who saves you by His grace,
and crown Him Lord of all.
Hail Him who saves you by His grace,
and crown Him Lord of all.

 

[Biblewriter]

Ignore the scripture found below, and maybe you can make your Two Peoples of God doctrine work.


Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
(Any honest Bible scholar knows that Jacob is found in this genealogy between Abraham and David, and therefore Christ is the "seed" of Jacob. Do you deny this fact?)

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
(Who was Peter speaking to on the Day of Pentecost?)

Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
(Did Paul say he was no longer an Israelite after his conversion?)

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I quoted scriptures that explicitly stated the point in clear, plain, language. And you quoted scriptures that you choose to interpret to mean that these scriptures are simply not true.

 

[keras]

I quoted scriptures that explicitly stated the point in clear, plain, language. And you quoted scriptures that you choose to interpret to mean that these scriptures are simply not true.

James, you are a Christian, right?
I am a Christian, everyone here are Christians, we have all chosen to follow and obey Jesus.

Who is it that inherit God's Promises? Those people who Jesus said that the Kingdom is now taken from them, or those who bear the fruit of the Gospel? Matthew 21:43
Note well that the OT promises are made to Israel, a word that literally means: One who overcomes.
Who are those who overcome Satan? Christians, of course and we are plainly told they come from every tribe [of Israel] every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10 and the people mentioned in each of the Seven Church's, as Overcomers, or the Victorious ones.

WE inherit God's Promises and the greatest one was that He would send His Son for the Salvation of the whole world. John 3:16
WE are the people of God, the Israel of God, as Galatians 6:14-16 states. Any other claimant to Israel, is false and will pay dearly for their arrogance.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

This thread is about Christian Zionism. God made an eternal covenant with Abraham and gave the land to the Jews for the Nation of Israel even more land than is currently held.
The promises God made to Israel have not been turned over to the Church as some denominations wrongly claim. They will say everytime the bible says israel it means the church- That is called Replacement theology and it is a false teaching.

How do you reckon the Hebrew Israelites of today know where their plots of land are.
If I am not mistaken, the Jews/Judeans are allocated the land of Benjamin and Judah?

Jer 33:13
‘In the cities of the mountains, in the cities of the lowland, in the cities of the South, in the land of Benjamin, in the places around Jerusalem, and in the cities of Judah, the flocks shall again pass under the hands of him who counts them,' says the LORD.
Eze 48:22
“Moreover, apart from the possession of the Levites and the possession of the city which are in the midst of what belongs to the prince, the area between the border of Judah and the border of Benjamin shall belong to the prince.

http://www.[bless and do not curse]...of-promised-land-to-twelve-tribes-israel.html

The Twelve Tribes
of the Children of Israel

The twelve tribes listed above, who inherited the promised land, are named after the sons of Jacob. The patriarch had his name changed to Israel after wrestling with and prevailing over an angel (see Genesis 32).

The tribe of Levi is missing from the above list. Levi's descendants were consecrated, by God, to be his priests. One of their many responsibilities was to serve and maintain the tabernacle in the wilderness, then later the temple in Jerusalem. Instead of receiving territory as an inheritance in the promised land, the Levites received tithes and offerings from the people (Numbers 18, Deuteronomy 18, etc.).

Although Joseph was also one of Jacob's sons, he too is usually omitted from lists of the tribes. This is because his two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, were adopted by Jacob in his stead (Genesis 48).