A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

[claninja]

I understand that. I've already told you that. I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I am writing this more for the objective onlooker who wants to see the development of the doctrine. The more the snowball rolls, the more detail is revealed. I will stop responding to you on this matter because you're not getting the reason for my submissions.

And that's fine. Again I appreciate you providing these quotes. I wasn't asking you to "prove" anything to me. I was only inquiring if you knew what the early amil church fathers taught on the symbolic meaning of the "1,000" years. The conclusions I have drawn from your list of quotes, is that the early "amil" church fathers, are seemingly silent on what they believed the "1,000" years symbolically meant.

Name one early writer or one credible orthodox writer that taught this? I don't know of any.

As to my belief that the 1,000 years is symbolic for the restoration of the Davidic throne through Christ's 1st advent (ministry, death, resurrection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit), which resulted in Satan being bound and cast out, born again believers (the 1st resurrection), and believers being a kingdom of priests, you asked above, "name one early writer or one credible orthodox writer that taught this?"

This is kind of a weird thing to ask considering the early "amil" church fathers are seemingly silent on their belief as to what the 1,000 years symbolically meant, as evidenced by all your early amil quotations lacking any mention of the 1,000 years.

 

[claninja]

This is stupidity.
Anyone reading your posts can soon see that your agenda is to denigrate and to reject anything that shows a future final fulfilment of the prophesies that vividly describe huge worldwide changes. Dramatic events that will lead up to the Return of Jesus.

Your attempts to use the ECF's to support your preterist claims, shows the paucity and lack of Bible support of your false notions.

Stupidity? Sure Keras....... heaven forbid I ask someone, who predicts the 2nd coming to occur in 2033ad, and states they don't use any writings of man for their study, as to where they contrived the date of 587/586 from..........

I don't really know what the rest of your post has to do with me asking where you got your dating from.....

 

[claninja]

A google search turned up a some links on that view.
For myself, I don't see any difference between partial preterism and amillennialism......

https://www.google.com/search?clien...MxLjSYAQCgAQKgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab

Search Results
Web results

Amillennialism in the Early Church - Third Millennium Ministries
thirdmill.org › answers › answer.asp › file
Amillennialism in the Early Church. Question. While writing an impassioned essay on the historical and scriptural merits of amillennialism, the author writes:.

3. Amillenniallism in the Ancient Church | Bible.org
bible.org › seriespage › 3-amillenniallism-ancient-church
Jan 1, 2008 - While the early church was concerned over many doctrinal questions, ... If the amillennial viewpoint as held in modern times is correct, it would ...

Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism ...
www.monergism.com › why-early-church-finally-rejected-premillenn...
But how are we to view the Church's earliest period up until the first decisive ... (what we would today call amillennial) understanding of the return of Christ.

www.reddit.com › OrthodoxChristianity › comments › amillennialism...
Amillennialism in the Early, Early Church? The Orthodox church is amillennialist (believe that the thousand year kingdom is symbolic and started after Christ's ...

The Early Fathers and their eschatology | The Puritan Board
www.puritanboard.com › Forums › The Church › Church History
Dec 31, 2011 - 30 posts - ‎8 authors
I think historians understand the early church fathers not to be amillennial because the ones that wrote specifically on eschatology and the ...

Amillennialism - New World Encyclopedia
www.newworldencyclopedia.org › entry › Amillennialism
Jump to The early church - Many mainline churches today continue to endorse amillennialism. History. The early church. Although the term amillennialism, ...

The Eschatology of the Early Church - Christianity In History
christianityinhistory.blogspot.com › 2007/10 › eschatology-of-early-c...
Oct 10, 2007 - There are a handful of others who may have been, but the vast majority of the early church fathers were clearly amillennial. Reply .

Amillennialism Study Archive – The Preterist Archive of ...
www.preteristarchive.com › amillennialism-study-archive
That the historical and prophetical parts of the Bible must be interpreted alike. All prophecy either has been or will be fulfilled physically. That all of the Old ...

The Amillennial Preterism of Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 162 ...
www.preteristarchive.com › the-amillennial-preterism-of-clement-of-a...
The 144,000 are protected during the three and a half years of tribulation when Satan goes after the rest of the seed of the woman. Patricia (ndbpsa ©) Bible ...
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Google search for topics on CF:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ami...GDQIHYS0D-YQrQIoBDAAegQIBBAP&biw=1138&bih=522

One way to look at is that all modern Amils are partial preterist, but not all partial preterists are modern amil.

The term Amil literally means "no millennium", however to be considered Amil by today's standards, one must believe the "1,000" years is symbolic for the time period between Christ 1st advent and his future 2nd coming. The belief of this symbolic "1,000" for time between the 1st and 2nd advent is partially based on statements made by Augustine in his work "city of god". Most amil early church fathers are silent on their belief of the 1,000 years symbolized.

As a partial preterist, I don't believe in a literal millennium like Amils, however, I don't believe that the millennium is symbolic for the time between the 1st advent and 2nd coming, and thus wouldn't be considered Amil by modern standards.

I don't believe the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time between the 1st and 2nd advent because according to revelation, the 1,000 years doesn't end at Christ coming. When the 1,000 years are completed, satan is loosed.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison.

And while revelation does say "after the 1,000 years" the dead come to life, it isn't until after the 1,000 years AND after satan's little season that the dead come to life to be judged.

Revelation 20:11-20 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done

Thus the timeline of the parabolic language of revelation 20 has: 1.) the completion of the 1,000 years, followed by 2.) satan loosed for a little season, followed by 3.) the great white throne judgment and resurrection of the dead. And this doesn't add up with the traditional teachings of Amil.

My belief is that the 1,000 years is symbolic for the restoration of the Davidic throne through Christ's 1st advent (ministry, death, ressurection, ascension, and sending of the Spirit).


The results of this "1000 years" are:

1.) Satan is bound by Christ's 1st advent:
Revelation 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,

Matthew 12:29 Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house

Luke 11:21-22 When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own palace, his goods are safe; but when one stronger than he attacks him and overcomes him, he takes away his armor in which he trusted and divides his spoil

2.) Satan is cast out by Christ's 1st advent:
Revelation 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer

John 12:31-33 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

Revelation 12:7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven.

3.) The 1st resurrection is Christ being raised from the dead at his 1st advent, which results in those in Christ being born again and a kingdom of priests
Revelation 20:4-6 Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Ephesians 2:4-7 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.


4.) Upon on the completion of this "1,000" symbolic years Satan is released to have a "little season"

Revelation 20:3 until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.
Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,

Revelation 12:12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”

Romans 16:20 The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.

I would argue the 1,000 years are derived from the time period between David and Christ. This is inspired by Steve Hahn who wrote in his book The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible: The New Testament "The background of the millennium may be traced to the period of the Davidic Covenant, which was established almost exactly 1,000 years before the coming of Christ."

Thus the Davidic covenant was fulfilled at Christ's 1st advent, 1000 years after the promise was given to David.

Luke 1:32-33 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

Acts 2:30-31 Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Acts 15:15-16 And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written, “‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it,

And the results of the fulfillment are listed in points 1-4 above and testified by the Gospels and Epistles.

 

[claninja]

The old covenant ending at the coming of Titus in AD 70.

I believe the covenant was made obsolete at the cross, and was ready to vanish away in the 1st century after the cross. It was presently being brought to an end in the 1st century after the cross.

Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

2 corinthians 3:11 For if what is being (present tense) brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory.

The new covenant commencing at the coming of Titus in AD 70.

Please avoid false statements SG. I have never stated this. If I have, please provide evidence that your claim is not false.

I believe the new covenant was instituted at the cross, as testified by scripture.

Matthew 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

That of “this age” ending at the coming of Titus in AD 70.

I believe the "this age" ended at the destruction of the temple, as the coming of Christ in judgment on Israel

Matthew 24:3 s he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

"Per forum defintion: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero."

That of “the last days” finishing at the coming of Titus in AD 70.

I believe the "last days" refer to the last days of old covenant system that was made obsolete at the cross and removed at its destruction in 66-70ad.

That of “the coming of the Lord” arriving at the coming of Titus in AD 70.

I don't believe Titus was Jesus coming. That would be another false statment. SG's pretty good and making false statements.

"Per forum defintion: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero."

I believe the coming of Jesus in judgment upon Israel was in a similar manner when God came down from heaven in the OT to judge David's enemies (2 samuel 22:10-11), when God came down from heaven to judge Egypt (Isaiah 19:1), or when God came down from heaven to judge samaria (micah 1:3-4).

That of “the resurrection” of the just and the unjust happening at the coming of Titus in AD70.

While Amils traditionally believe that it is after the cross that believers now to heaven, I believe was after the removal of the old obsolete covenant system. The standing of the old obsolete system in the 1st century, even after the cross, symbolized the way into heaven was not yet manifested.

Hebrews 9:8-9 By this the Holy Spirit indicates that the way into the holy places is not yet opened as long as the first section is still standing (which is symbolic for the present age).

I believe in a future resurrection. I'm pretty sure i'm not living in a resurrected body as I type this.

That of the old corrupt heavens and earth being replaced at the coming of Titus in AD 70.

I hold agreement to the benson commentary that the shaking of the heavens and earth refers to the removal of the old covenant system.

"Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven — Meaning, probably, the abolition of the civil and ecclesiastical constitution of the Jews, with the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple, Matthew 24:29; John 4:21; John 4:23; and even the overthrow of the heathen idolatry,"

That of “the judgment” of the just and the unjust happening at the coming of Titus in AD 70.

I hold to Christ's view on

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out.

I also believe in a future judgment. I'm pretty all of us typing here have not yet stood in front of the judgment seat of Christ yet.

 

[claninja]

1) The point is not persecution of the Jews but of the true Israel, the Church of God. Before Christ's 1st coming, this was the Jews. Now, it's the Christians.

I'm confused, So you believe the following refers to Christians today?

They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

2) The definition of "gentile" is "non-believer," someone who doesn't belong to the Church / Kingdom of God.

That's possible

3) The empires currently ruling the world are described as the Beast of Revelation who has characteristics of the previous 4 empires of Daniel.

SO then you believe there are 5 gentile kingdoms until the saints possess the kingdom forever?

5) Before the 2nd coming, the "great tribulation" will reach epic proportions in the war of Armageddon / Gog & Magog.

What non apocalyptic scripture can you use to support your conclusion of this interpretation?

6) Even though Christ is already King over the whole earth presently, a lot of people / kingdom still do not acknowledge His lordship.

I agree

7) After the 2nd coming all knees will bow to him and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, on earth and in heaven, and under the earth.

I agree.

I find this eschatological idea quite strange. To say that satan was bound during a millennium extending from David's reign (1010 - 970 BC) to 66 AD is unsupported.

No, your misunderstanding. Satan was bound at the cross. The 1,000 years simply symbolizes the restoration of the Davidic throne at Christ's 1st advent.

 

[Andrewn]

I'm confused, So you believe the following refers to Christians today?

They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Today, yes.

SO then you believe there are 5 gentile kingdoms until the saints possess the kingdom forever?

No, not five. There have been innumerable empires throughout history that persecuted the Church. Christians are still being abused in many parts of the world.

What non apocalyptic scripture can you use to support your conclusion of this interpretation?

Beside Revelation and Ezekiel, none. But the OD and Zechariah allude to it (not in your view).

I would argue the 1,000 years are derived from the time period between David and Christ.

I find this eschatological idea quite strange. To say that satan was bound during a millennium extending from David's reign (1010 - 970 BC) to 66 AD is unsupported.

No, your misunderstanding. Satan was bound at the cross. The 1,000 years simply symbolizes the restoration of the Davidic throne at Christ's 1st advent.

You're the one who keeps mentioning the Davidic throne. Satan is bound during the Millennium. A millennium is obviously not an incident but a period of time. When do the 1000 years start and end in your view?

 

[Christian Gedge]

I would argue the 1,000 years are derived from the time period between David and Christ. This is inspired by Steve Hahn who wrote in his book The Ignatius Catholic Study Bible: The New Testament "The background of the millennium may be traced to the period of the Davidic Covenant, which was established almost exactly 1,000 years before the coming of Christ."

Steve Hahn is a modern Catholic theologian. Does his millennial view, as you have described, represent typical Catholic eschatology or is it a recent variation? Similarly, does Hahn's millennial view represent typical part-Preterist eschatology?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Today, yes.


No, not five. There have been innumerable empires throughout history that persecuted the Church. Christians are still being abused in many parts of the world.


Beside Revelation and Ezekiel, none. But the OD and Zechariah allude to it (not in your view).


You're the one who keeps mentioning the Davidic throne. A millennium is obviously not an incident but a period of time. When do the 1000 years start and end in your view?

I will reply to you re the early Amil fathers views on the intermediate state. I don't want Claninja thinking I am trying to address his enquiries or change him. I am doing this for the objective onlooker.

AD 130-AD 230
17 Amils, 5 Chiliasts, and 1 unknown ECFs​

Here are some of ancient Amil thoughts expressed during that time.

The Apocalypse of Peter
Palestine
(written between the years 132-135)​

Rainer fragment

I shall depart, I and my exulting chosen, with the patriarchs, into my eternal kingdom, and I will fulfil for them then my promises which I have given to them, both I am my Father in heaven.

The kingdom that the Lord promises to the elect when Christ ascends is not earthly but heavenly. It’s not temporal but eternal.

Epistula Apostolorum (Epistle of the Apostles)
Asia Minor (now Turkey)
(The 140s)​

Chapter19

[P]reach the kingdom of heaven of my Father, and how my Father hath given me the power, that ye may bring near the children of my heavenly Father. Preach ye, and they shall obtain faith, that ye may be they for whom it is ordained that they shall bring his children unto heaven…

Be of good courage and rest in me. Verily I say unto you, your rest shall be above, in the place where is neither eating nor drinking, nor care nor sorrow, nor passing away of them that are therein: for ye shall have no part in the things of earth, but ye shall be received in the everlastingness of my Father. Like as I am in him, so shall ye also be in me.

Chapter28

Verily I say unto you, all that have believed on me and that believe in him that sent me will I take up into the heaven, unto the place which my Father hath prepared for the elect, and I will give you the kingdom, the chosen kingdom, in rest, and everlasting life.

The Odes of Solomon
Syria
(Middle of the 2nd century)​

Ode 11

16 And He took me to His Paradise, wherein is the wealth of the Lord's pleasure…
18 And I said, Blessed, O Lord, are they who are planted in Your land, and who have a place in Your Paradise;
19 And who grow in the growth of Your trees, and have passed from darkness into light.

Ode 17

1. And from there He gave me the way of His steps, and I opened the doors which were closed.
2. And I shattered the bars of iron, for my own shackles had grown hot and melted before me.
3. And nothing appeared closed to me, because I was the opening of everything.
4. And I went towards all my bound ones in order to loose them; that I might not leave anyone bound or binding.

Ode 22

1. He who caused me to descend from on high, and to ascend from the regions below;
2. And He who gathers what is in the Middle, and throws them to me;
3. He who scattered my enemies, and my adversaries;
4. He who gave me authority over bonds, so that I might unbind them;
5. He who overthrew by my hands the dragon with seven heads, and set me at his roots that I might destroy his seed;
6. You were there and helped me, and in every place Your name surrounded me.
7. Your right hand destroyed his evil venom, and Your hand leveled the Way for those who believe in You.
8. And it chose them from the graves, and separated them from the dead ones.

ODE 42.

15 Sheol saw me and was made miserable:
16 Death cast me up, and many along with me.
17 I had gall and bitterness, and I went down with him to the utmost of his depth:
18 And the feet and the head he let go, for they were not able to endure my face:
19 And I made a congregation of living men amongst his dead men, and I spake with them by living lips:
20 Because my word shall not be void:
21 And those who had died ran towards me: and they cried and said, Son of God, have pity on us, and do with us according to thy kindness,
22 And bring us out from the bonds of darkness: and open to us the door by which we shall come out to thee.
23 For we see that our death has not touched thee.
24 Let us also be redeemed with thee: for thou art our Redeemer.
25 And I heard their voice; and my name I sealed upon their heads:
26 For they are free men and they are mine. Hallelujah.

The Teachings of Silvanus
Alexandria, Egypt
150 AD​

My son, do not fear anyone except God alone, the Exalted One. Cast the deceitfulness of the Devil from you. Accept the light for your eyes, and cast the darkness from you. Live in Christ, and you will acquire a treasure in heaven…

Keep the holy commandments of Jesus Christ, and you will reign over every place on earth, and will be honored by the angels and archangels. Then you will acquire them as friends and fellow servants, and you will acquire places in heaven above…

For the Underworld is open wide for the soul, and the place of perdition is broad. Accept Christ, the narrow way. For he is oppressed and bears affliction for your sin…

Although he was God, he was found among men as a man. He descended to the Underworld. He released the children of death. They were in travail, as the scripture of God has said. And he sealed up the (very) heart of it. And he broke its strong bows completely. And when all the powers had seen him, they fled, so that he might bring you, wretched one, up from the Abyss, and might die for you as a ransom for your sin. He saved you from the strong hand of the Underworld…

My son, guard yourself against wickedness, and do not let the Spirit of Wickedness cast you down into the Abyss. For he is mad and bitter. He is terrifying, and he casts everyone down into a pit of mire.

Tatian
Syrian
(A.D. 170)​

Address to the Greeks

Chapter VI – Christians' Belief In The Resurrection

I have obtained through my birth a certainty of my existence; in the same way, having been born, and through death existing no longer, and seen no longer, I shall exist again, just as before I was not, but was afterwards born. Even though fire destroy all traces of my flesh, the world receives the vaporized matter; and though dispersed through rivers and seas, or torn in pieces by wild beasts, I am laid up in the storehouses of a wealthy Lord. And, although the poor and the godless know not what is stored up, yet God the Sovereign, when He pleases, will restore the substance that is visible to Him alone to its pristine condition.

Address to the Greeks

Chapter XIII

The Logos, in truth, is the light of God, but the ignorant soul is darkness. On this account, if it continues solitary, it tends downward towards matter, and dies with the flesh; but, if it enters into union with the Divine Spirit, it is no longer helpless, but ascends to the regions whither the Spirit guides it: for the dwelling-place of the spirit is above.

Athenagoras
Athens, Greece
(wrote A.D. 177)
​

Chapter 31

[W]e are persuaded that when we are removed from the present life we shall live another life, better than the present one, and heavenly, not earthly (since we shall abide near God, and with God, free from all change or suffering in the soul, not as flesh, even though we shall have flesh, but as heavenly spirit).

Letter from Vienna and Lyons, Gaul (now France)
(AD177-AD178)​

V.1.5

And pouring out many tears for them to the Father, they begged life; and He gave it to them, and they shared it with their neighbours. And departing victorious over all to God, having always loved peace, and having recommended peace to us, in peace they went to God, leaving no sorrow to their Mother, nor division and dissension to their brethren, but joy and peace, and concord and love."

Hegesippus
Jerusalem, Palestine
(flourished between 150 and 180 A.D)​

Book 5

Chapter XXVII.

And truly the souls freed by steel from the chains of this body, of soldiers and vigorous men, who devoted themselves to death in behalf of their country, children, religion, it is a doubt to none that that pure ethereal element, shining by the light of the stars, takes up in celestial dwelling places in a lodging of heavenly peace.

Book 5

Chapter LIII.

For while we are in the body, our soul serves a wretched servitude which is exiled from paradise and wanders from its leader. When however it has been freed of these fleshly chains, it flies back to that pure and splendid higher place and is in attendance to its Lord God and enjoys the dwelling places of the saints and the company of the blessed, it rejoices because it now has no communion with the dead, and has left behind the companionship of the dead body, heavenly grace has breathed upon it, nor does any irritation of human cares disturb it. Quiet is the proof to us, how much grace the soul recovers after the death of the body. With the body put to sleep and its desires and all its commotions as if dead we keep company with the saints more often, we recover what we have lost, and the absent are present with us and the dead live and every grief is at rest, and we approach and talk with God, we become acquainted with the future, there is respite from afflictions, there is freedom for slaves.

Melito
Bishop of Sardis, Asia Minor (now Turkey)
(d. c. 180)​

Discourse on Soul and Body

40-43

The whole creation, I say, was astonished;
but, when our Lord arose from the place of the dead,
and trampled death under foot,
and bound the strong one,
and set man free,
then did the whole creation see clearly that for man’s sake…
For our Lord, when He was born man,
was condemned in order that He might Show mercy,
was bound in order that He might loose,
was seized in order that He might release,
suffered in order that He might feel compassion,
died in order that He might give life,
was laid in the grave that He might raise from the dead.

On the Resurrection

It is I who delivered the condemned.
It is I who gave life to the dead.
It is I who raised up the buried.
Who will argue with me?
It is I, says Christ, who destroyed death.
It is I who triumphed over the enemy,
and having trod down Hades, and bound the Strong Man,
and have snatched mankind up to the heights of heaven…
It is I who brings you up to the heights of heaven.
It is I who will give you the resurrection there.
I will show you the Eternal Father.
I will raise you up with my own right hand.

On the Passover (Peri Pascha)

71. This is the lamb that was slain. This is the lamb that was silent. This is the one who was born of Mary, that beautiful ewe-lamb. This is the one who was taken from the flock, and was dragged to sacrifice, and was killed in the evening, and was buried at night; the one who was not broken while on the tree, who did not see dissolution while in the earth, who rose up from the dead, and who raised up mankind from the grave below.

III. The Final Triumph of Christ

102. Who is my opponent? I, he says, am the Christ. I am the one who destroyed death, and triumphed over the enemy, and trampled Hades under foot, and bound the strong one, and carried off man to the heights of heaven, I, he says, am the Christ.

Fragments Peri Pascha 13.22-5

But when our Lord arose from the dead
having trodden down death
and bound the strong one and released man,

New Fragment III.

5:24-36

By the cross death is destroyed,
and by the cross salvation shines;
By the cross the gates of hell are burst,
and by the cross the gates of paradise are opened.

 

[sovereigngrace]

Today, yes.


No, not five. There have been innumerable empires throughout history that persecuted the Church. Christians are still being abused in many parts of the world.


Beside Revelation and Ezekiel, none. But the OD and Zechariah allude to it (not in your view).


You're the one who keeps mentioning the Davidic throne. A millennium is obviously not an incident but a period of time. When do the 1000 years start and end in your view?

Theophilus
Bishop of Antioch, Syria
(His death probably occurred between 183 – 185)​

Apologia ad Autolycum (Apology to Autolycus) Book 1

Chapter VII.

When thou shalt have put off the mortal, and put on incorruption, then shalt thou see God worthily. For God will raise thy flesh immortal with thy soul; and then, having become immortal, thou shalt see the Immortal, if now you believe on Him; and then you shall know that you have spoken unjustly against Him.

Apologia ad Autolycum Book 2

Chapter XVII

And on the sixth day, God having made the quadrupeds, and wild beasts, and the land reptiles, pronounced no blessing upon them, reserving His blessing for man, whom He was about to create on the sixth day. The quadrupeds, too, and wild beasts, were made for a type of some men, who neither know nor worship God, but mind earthly things, and repent not. For those who turn from their iniquities and live righteously, in spirit fly upwards like birds, and mind the things that are above, and are well-pleasing to the will of God.

Chapter XXIV

And God having placed man in Paradise, as has been said, to till and keep it, commanded him to eat of all the trees,--manifestly of the tree of life also; but only of the tree of knowledge He commanded him not to taste. And God transferred him from the earth, out of which he had been produced, into Paradise, giving him means of advancement, in order that, maturing and becoming perfect, and being even declared a god, he might thus ascend into heaven in possession of immortality. For man had been made a middle nature, neither wholly mortal, nor altogether immortal, but capable of either; so also the place, Paradise, was made in respect of beauty intermediate between earth and heaven.

5 Ezra
(2nd century)
Israel​

Chapter 2

10 Thus says the Lord to Ezra: "Tell my people that I have prepared for them to eat, and I will give them the kingdom of Jerusalem, which I was going to give to Israel.
11 And I will take for them the glory of Israel, and I will give to them the eternal dwelling places that I had prepared for Israel.
12 The tree of life will be an aroma of ointment for them, and they will neither labor nor become tired…
35 Be prepared for the rewards of the kingdom. Perpetual light will shine upon you, and eternity of times has been prepared for you.
36 Flee from the shadow of this age, the captivity of your glory. I testify that my savior has been commanded by the Lord.
37 "As for you, receive the joy of your glory, giving thanks to the one who called you to heavenly kingdoms.
38 Rise, and stand, and see in the banquet the number of the sealed,
39 who have borne themselves from the shadow of the world and have received splendid garments from the Lord.
40 "Mount Zion, receive your number. Bring to completion your people clothed in white, who serve you with obedience, because they have fulfilled the law of the Lord.
41 Since formerly you wished your children to come, complete their number. Ask the authority of the Lord that the people may be sanctified, because they were called from the beginning."
42 I, Ezra, saw on Mount Zion a great crowd that I could not count; all of them were praising the Lord with songs …
44 And I asked an angel and said, "Who are these people?"
45 And he responded and said to me, "They are those who have laid aside the mortal clothing and donned the immortal, and confessed the name of God. Now they are being crowned and receive palms."

Clement
Alexandria, Egypt
(c.150 - c. 215)​

Chapter 26

But the elect man dwells as a sojourner, knowing all things to be possessed and disposed of; and he makes use of the things which the Pythagoreans make out to be the threefold good things. The body, too, as one sent on a distant pilgrimage, uses inns and dwellings by the way, having care of the things of the world, of the places where he halts; but leaving his dwelling-place and property without excessive emotion; readily following him that leads him away from life; by no means and on no occasion turning back; giving thanks for his sojourn, and blessing [God] for his departure, embracing the mansion that is in heaven. “For we know, that, if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: if so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we walk by faith, not by sight,” as the apostle says; “and we are willing rather to be absent from the body, and present with God.” The rather is in comparison. And comparison obtains in the case of things that fall under resemblance; as the more valiant man is more valiant among the valiant, and most valiant among cowards. Whence he adds, “Wherefore we strive, whether present or absent, to be accepted with Him,” that is, God, whose work and creation are all things, both the world and things supramundane. I admire Epicharmus, who clearly says:

“Endowed with pious mind, you will not, in dying,
Suffer aught evil. The spirit will dwell in heaven above;”

Chapter 32

Then to appoint such a reward for liberality,— an everlasting habitation! O excellent trading! O divine merchandise! One purchases immortality for money; and, by giving the perishing things of the world, receives in exchange for these an eternal mansion in the heavens! Sail to this mart, if you are wise, O rich man! If need be, sail round the whole world. Spare not perils and toils, that you may purchase here the heavenly kingdom. Why do transparent stones and emeralds delight you so much, and a house that is fuel for fire, or a plaything of time, or the sport of the earthquake, or an occasion for a tyrant's outrage? Aspire to dwell in the heavens, and to reign with God. This kingdom a man imitating God will give you. By receiving a little here, there through all ages He will make you a dweller with Him.

Chapter 13.

And although here upon earth he be not honoured with the chief seat, he will sit down on the four-and-twenty thrones, judging the people, as John says in the Apocalypse… For which cause the middle wall which separated the Greek from the Jew is taken away, in order that there might be a peculiar people. And so both meet in the one unity of faith; and the selection out of both is one. And the chosen of the chosen are those who by reason of perfect knowledge are called [as the best] from the Church itself, and honoured with the most august glory— the judges and rulers— four-and-twenty (the grace being doubled) equally from Jews and Greeks.

For these taken up in the clouds, the apostle writes, will first minister [as deacons], then be classed in the presbyterate, by promotion in glory (for glory differs from glory) till they grow into a perfect man.

The Gospel of Nicodemus (or Acts Of Pilate)
(probably Palestine)
(150-255 AD)​

(Part II Second Latin Form)

Chapter 1 (17).

We have risen again along with Christ from the lower world, and He has raised us up again from the dead. And from this you may know that the gates of death and darkness have been destroyed, and the souls of the saints have been brought out thence, and have ascended into heaven along with Christ the Lord.

(Part II Second Latin Form)

Chapter 8 (24)

And, behold, suddenly Hades trembled, and the gates of death and the bolts were shattered, and the iron bars were broken and fell to the ground, and everything was laid open.

(Part II Second Latin Form)

Chapter 9 (25)

Then the Lord Jesus, the Saviour of all, affectionate and most mild, saluting Adam kindly, said to him: Peace be to you, Adam, with your children, through immeasurable ages of ages! Amen. Then father Adam, falling forward at the feet of the Lord, and being raised erect, kissed His hands, and shed many tears, saying, testifying to all: Behold the hands which fashioned me! And he said to the Lord: You have come, O King of glory, delivering men, and bringing them into Your everlasting kingdom. Then also our mother Eve in like manner fell forward at the feet of our Lord, and was raised erect, and kissed His hands, and poured forth tears in abundance, and said, testifying to all: Behold the hands which made me! Then all the saints, adoring Him, cried out, saying: Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! The Lord God has shone upon us — amen— through all ages. Alleluia for ever and ever! Praise, honour, power, glory! Because You have come from on high to visit us. Singing Alleluia continually, and rejoicing together concerning His glory, they ran together under the hands of the Lord. Then the Saviour, inquiring thoroughly about all, seized Hades, immediately threw some down into Tartarus, and led some with Him to the upper world.

(Part II Second Latin Form)

Chapter 10 (26)

Then all the saints of God asked the Lord to leave as a sign of victory the sign of His holy cross in the lower world, that its most impious officers might not retain as an offender any one whom the Lord had absolved. And so it was done. And the Lord set His cross in the midst of Hades, which is the sign of victory, and which will remain even to eternity.

Then we all went forth thence along with the Lord, leaving Satan and Hades in Tartarus. And to us and many others it was commanded that we should rise in the body, giving in the world a testimony of the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of those things which had been done in the lower world.

(Part II Greek Form)

Chapter 8 (24)

While Hades was thus discoursing to Satan, the King of glory stretched out His right hand, and took hold of our forefather Adam, and raised him. Then turning also to the rest, He said: Come all with me, as many as have died through the tree which he touched: for, behold, I again raise you all up through the tree of the cross. Thereupon He brought them all out, and our forefather Adam seemed to be filled with joy, and said: I thank Your majesty, O Lord, that You have brought me up out of the lowest Hades. Likewise also all the prophets and the saints said: We thank You, O Christ, Saviour of the world, that You have brought our life up out of destruction. And after they had thus spoken, the Saviour blessed Adam with the sign of the cross on his forehead, and did this also to the patriarchs, and prophets, and martyrs, and forefathers; and He took them, and sprang up out of Hades. And while He was going, the holy fathers accompanying Him sang praises, saying: Blessed is He that comes in the name of the Lord: Alleluia; to Him be the glory of all the saints.

(Part II Greek Form)

Chapter 9 (25)

And setting out to paradise, He took hold of our forefather Adam by the hand, and delivered him, and all the just, to the archangel Michael. And as they were going into the door of paradise, there met them two old men, to whom the holy fathers said: Who are you, who have not seen death, and have not come down into Hades, but who dwell in paradise in your bodies and your souls?

(Part II Greek Form)

Chapter 10 (26)

While they were thus speaking, there came another lowly man, carrying also upon his shoulders a cross, to whom the holy fathers said: Who are you, who hast the look of a robber; and what is the cross which you bear upon your shoulders? He answered: I, as you say, was a robber and a thief in the world, and for these things the Jews laid hold of me, and delivered me to the death of the cross, along with our Lord Jesus Christ. While, then, He was hanging upon the cross, I, seeing the miracles that were done, believed in Him, and entreated Him, and said, Lord, when You shall be King, do not forget me. And immediately He said to me, Amen, amen: today, I say unto you, shall you be with me in paradise. Therefore I came to paradise carrying my cross; and finding the archangel Michael, I said to him, Our Lord Jesus, who has been crucified, has sent me here; bring me, therefore, to the gate of Eden. And the flaming sword, seeing the sign of the cross, opened to me, and I went in. Then the archangel says to me, Wait a little, for there comes also the forefather of the race of men, Adam, with the just, that they too may come in. And now, seeing you, I came to meet you. The saints hearing these things, all cried out with a loud voice: Great is our Lord, and great is His strength.

The Acts of Thomas
Syria
(200-225 AD)​

Chapter 22

And as they talked together, the soul of his brother Gad departed. And the king mourned sore for Gad, for he loved him much, and commanded that he should be buried in royal and precious apparel. Now after this angels took the soul of Gad the king's brother and bore it up into heaven, showing unto him the places and dwellings that were there, and inquired of him: In which place wouldest thou dwell?

Chapter 80

Glory and praise (good report) to thine ascending into the heavens; for thereby thou hast shewed us the path of the height, and promised that we shall sit with thee on thy right hand and with thee judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Thou art the heavenly word of the Father: thou art the hidden light of the understanding, shewer of the way of truth, driver away of darkness, and blotter-out of error.

Chapter 94

lessed are the spirits of the pure, and they that have received the heavenly crown whole from the world (age) which hath been appointed them.

Chapter 117

And when Charisius had so said, Mygdonia saith unto him: He whom I love is better than thee and thy substance: for thy substance is of earth and returneth unto the earth; but he whom I love is of heaven and will take me with him unto heaven.

Chapter 156

[W]ho among men wast crucified for many: who didst go down into hell with great might: the sight of whom the princes of death endured not; and thou camest up with great glory, and gathering all them that fled unto thee didst prepare a way, and in thy footsteps all they journeyed whom thou didst redeem; and thou broughtest them into thine own fold and didst join them with thy sheep: son of mercy, the son that for love of man wast sent unto us from the perfect country (fatherland) that is above, the Lord of all possessions: that servest thy servants that they may live.

Origen
Alexandria, Egypt
(185-254)​

Exhortation to Martyrdom

Chapter 30.

For just as those who provided ministry at the altar according to the Law of Moses believed that they obtained remission of [the peoples’] sins by the blood of goats and bulls, so the souls of those “who have been beheaded for the witness of Jesus” do not minister in vain at the heavenly altar, but provide the remission of sins for those who pray.

Commentary of Romans

V. 10

Citing Matthew 12:29 he said: “First therefore he bound him at the cross, and thus he has entered his house, that is, Hades (infernum), and from there “ascending on high, he led captivity captive,” those certainly who with himself are co-resurrected and have entered the holy city, heavenly Jerusalem.”

 

[claninja]

Today, yes

I disagree, there is clear distinction between the persecution of the church and the punishment associated with 1st century Jerusalem in the olivet discourse

Luke 21:12 But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. On account of My name they will deliver you to the synagogues and prisons, and they will bring you before kings and governors.

You believe God's wrath is against Christians? "this people" refers to the "they will fall by the edge of the sword".

Luke 21:23-24 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

No, not five. There have been innumerable empires throughout history that persecuted the Church. Christians are still being abused in many parts of the world.

Daniel states there would be 4 empire until the saints possess the kingdom forever.

Daniel 7:17-18 These four great beasts are four kings who will arise from the earth. But the saints of the Most High will receive the kingdom and possess it forever—yes, forever and ever.’

Beside Revelation and Ezekiel, none. But the OD and Zechariah allude to it (not in your view).

There are plenty of non apocalyptic scriptures outside of revelation and ezekiel that help us interpret them. However, when we ignore them, interpreting revelation and ezekiel becomes personal interpretation. As I'm sure your well aware, there are hundreds of different futurist interpretation of Ezekiel and revelation.

And I would disagree that my view does not allow for the OD to allude to "Gog and Magog".

My view is that Gog and magog is a parable for the crucifixion of Christ and persecution of the Church.

1.) I believe this passage points to the cross:

Ezekiel 39:17 and as for you, son of man, this is what the Lord GOD says: Call out to every kind of bird and to every beast of the field: ‘Assemble and come together from all around to my sacrificial feast that I am preparing for you, a great feast on the mountains of Israel. There you will eat flesh and drink blood.

John 6:53-55 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is real food, and My blood is real drink.

2.) I believe this passage points to the cross:

Revelation 19:19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to wage war against the One seated on the horse, and against His army.

Acts 4:26-27 The kings of the earth take their stand and the rulers gather together
against the Lord and against His Anointed One.’ For this is indeed the very city where Herod and Pontius Pilate conspired with the Gentiles and the people of Israel against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed.

3.) I believe satan's little season refers to the persecution of the church

Revelation 20:7-9 When the thousand years are complete, Satan will be released from his prison, and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore.And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

Revelation 12:17 and the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Luke 21:12-17 But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. On account of My name they will deliver you to the synagogues and prisons, and they will bring you before kings and governors. This will be your opportunity to serve as witnesses. So make up your mind not to worry beforehand how to defend yourselves. For I will give you speech and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict.You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and some of you will be put to death. And you will be hated by everyone because of My name.

You're the one who keeps mentioning the Davidic throne. Satan is bound during the Millennium. A millennium is obviously not an incident but a period of time. When do the 1000 years start and end in your view?

I don't view the 1,000 years as a starting or ending point. I view it as symbolic for Christ fulfillment of the Davidic covenant at his 1st advent.

non apocalyptic scripture is clear that satan was bound, cast out, and "coming" at Christ's 1st advent.

Matthew 12:39 or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house.

John 12:31-33 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.” He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

John 14:30 I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me,


How can the millenium end at Christ's 2nd coming, and yet satan is released after the millennium is completed, for a little season?

 

[Andrewn]

You believe God's wrath is against Christians? "this people" refers to the "they will fall by the edge of the sword".

Of course not. I never said that. Plz look back at your question and my answer.

non apocalyptic scripture is clear that satan was bound, cast out, and "coming" at Christ's 1st advent.

Then you should be able to see that the Amil view is the right view.

 

[Andrewn]

I disagree, there is clear distinction between the persecution of the church and the punishment associated with 1st century Jerusalem in the olivet discourse

Of course. In the 1st century, the Temple was still standing and the Old Covenant disappeared gradually. Before destruction of the Temple, the Apostle said:

Heb 8:13 When God said “new,” he made the first covenant obsolete, and something that is obsolete and growing old is going to disappear.

Only with destruction of the Temple did Ceremonial Judaism completely disappear. Between 70 and 135 AD, it was replaced with 2 new religions: Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.

Daniel states there would be 4 empire until the saints possess the kingdom forever.

Yes, and this has "already" taken place with the glorification of Lord Jesus. It's "yet" to be completed at the 2nd coming.

My view is that Gog and magog is a parable for the crucifixion of Christ and persecution of the Church.

I expected this to be your view. For me the persecution is foretold in Rev 12. Rev 16 takes place at the 2nd coming.

I don't view the 1,000 years as a starting or ending point. I view it as symbolic for Christ fulfillment of the Davidic covenant at his 1st advent. non apocalyptic scripture is clear that satan was bound, cast out, and "coming" at Christ's 1st advent.

This is great. You should become Amil, then.

How can the millenium end at Christ's 2nd coming, and yet satan is released after the millennium is completed, for a little season?

Why do you ask this? I'm sure you know the answer. The satan is released for a little season to wage war against "the camp of the saints and the beloved city" before Christ's 2nd coming and eternal reign:

Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,

 

[claninja]

Steve Hahn is a modern Catholic theologian.

Correct

Does his millennial view, as you have described, represent typical Catholic eschatology or is it a recent variation?

Similar to that of Amil, but with his attempt to explain where the 1,000 years is derived from.

Similarly, does Hahn's millennial view represent typical part-Preterist eschatology?

Partial preterism can range from Amil all the way to almost full preterism. On that spectrum Steve Hahn views Gog/Magog as occuring in the last days just before the Devils judgment. Thus I would argue he leans toward traditional Amil, which is the Catholic Churches tradition view.

I appreciate Steve Hahn's perspective in trying to understand where the 1,000 years is derived from. To me, it makes more sense that the 1,000 years come from Christ's fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant instead the more common argument that 1,000 symbolizes completion or perfection.

 

[claninja]

Of course not. I never said that. Plz look back at your question and my answer.

In Post #245, I asked if you believed 21:24 was in regards to Christians today.

"I'm confused, So you believe the following refers to Christians today?

They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

In post #246, you stated:

"Today, yes."

The nearest antecedent is "this people". Thus they "they will fall by the edge of the sword...." refers to the wrath against "this people". So because you stated "today, yes" in regards to Christians being the ones to "fall by the edge of the sword......", then you believe they are one in the same with those associated with the "wrath against this people".

Luke 21:23-24 How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! For there will be great distress upon the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations. And Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Grammatically
, you cannot separate verse 23 from 24.

Then you should be able to see that the Amil view is the right view.

I agree that Amil is the correct position. However, I disagree with the modern Amil interpretation.

Of course. In the 1st century, the Temple was still standing and the Old Covenant disappeared gradually. Before destruction of the Temple, the Apostle said:

Heb 8:13 When God said “new,” he made the first covenant obsolete, and something that is obsolete and growing old is going to disappear.

Only with destruction of the Temple did Ceremonial Judaism completely disappear. Between 70 and 135 AD, it was replaced with 2 new religions: Christianity and Rabbinic Judaism.

So then why are conflating the persecution of the saints with the wrath against "this people"?

Yes, and this has "already" took place with the glorification of Lord Jesus. It's "yet" to be completed at the 2nd coming.

So do you believe the saints now possess the kingdom or is that still future?

I expected this to be your view. For me the persecution is foretold in Rev 12. Rev 16 takes place at the 2nd coming.

Revelation is a symbolic and apocalyptic vision, and thus its interpretation should be made by comparing non apocalyptic and symbolic langauge, otherwise it becomes personal interpretation.

So what non apocalyptic and symbolic language from the epistles and gospels helps to interpret that the battle of Armageddon is a literal future battle?

Do Jesus or the apostles every describe a literal future earthly battle in Armageddon?

This is great. You should become Amil, then.

By the literal defintion of the Amil, I am amil, as I don't believe in a literal 1,000 year reign. By modern traditional defintion of Amil, I am not Amil, as I don't believe the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time period between the 1st and 2nd advent.

Additionally, as I don't believe the 1,000 years is a time span, but a fulfillment of the Davidic covenant, I believe satan was bound, cast out, and loosed all in the 1st century.

Why do you ask this? I'm sure you know the answer. The satan is released for a little season to wage war against "the camp of the saints and the beloved city" before Christ's 2nd coming and eternal reign:

The traditional Amil position is that the 1,000 years = the time between the 1st and 2nd advent.

However, this creates a contradiction in the amil traditional belief. If the 1,000 years is a time span, how can satan be released after the 1,000 years if Jesus comes at the end of the 1,000 years?

 

[Andrewn]

So then why are conflating the persecution of the saints with the wrath against "this people"?

There were Christians in Jerusalem during the Jewish Wars. Christ had told them to flee to the mountains when they see the signs. History tells us that they did migrate to Pelia during the wars.

So do you believe the saints now possess the kingdom or is that still future?

I previously explained the concept of "already and not yet."

By modern traditional defintion of Amil, I am not Amil, as I don't believe the 1,000 years is symbolic for the time period between the 1st and 2nd advent. Additionally, as I don't believe the 1,000 years is a time span, but a fulfillment of the Davidic covenant, I believe satan was bound, cast out, and loosed all in the 1st century.

This doesn't make sense to me.

The traditional Amil position is that the 1,000 years = the time between the 1st and 2nd advent. However, this creates a contradiction in the amil traditional belief. If the 1,000 years is a time span, how can satan be released after the 1,000 years if Jesus comes at the end of the 1,000 years?

I don't see a contradiction. This is the passage we're discussing:

Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

It seems that we're having a problem with applying logic. What you see as logical doesn't make sense to me and vice versa! Since my position is the historical position of the Church, I have to conclude that your logic is flawed.

 

[claninja]

There were Christians in Jerusalem during the Jewish Wars. Christ had told them to flee to the mountains when they see the signs. History tells us that they did migrate to Pelia during the wars.

Eusebius wrote that there were no Christians in Jerusalem during the war, but that they fled before the war began.

"
But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)

"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)"

I previously explained the concept of "already and not yet."

This doesn't help understand why you are adding more than 4 kingdoms until the saints possess the kingdom.

This doesn't make sense to me.

Most likely as you view the 1,000 years as a time span. I don't view the 1,000 years as a time span, but as symbolic for the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.

I don't see a contradiction. This is the passage we're discussing:

So then you believe the 2nd coming occurs at the same time as Satan's little season?

t seems that we're having a problem with applying logic. What you see as logical doesn't make sense to me and vice versa! Since my position is the historical position of the Church, I have to conclude that your logic is flawed.

Where does the amil church place the "loosing of satan" in regards to the millennium, before or after the 1,000 years ends?

 

[sovereigngrace]

Eusebius wrote that there were no Christians in Jerusalem during the war, but that they fled before the war began.

"
But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella. " (History of the Church 3:5:3)

"The whole body, however, of the church at Jerusalem, having been commanded by a divine revelation, given to men of approved piety there before the war, removed from the city, and dwelt at a certain town beyond the Jordan, called Pella. Here those that believed in Christ, having removed from Jerusalem, as if holy men had entirely abandoned the royal city itself, and the whole land of Judea; the divine justice, for their crimes against Christ and his apostles finally overtook them, totally destroying the whole generation of these evildoers form the earth. (Eusebius, 3:5.)"



This doesn't help understand why you are adding more than 4 kingdoms until the saints possess the kingdom.



Most likely as you view the 1,000 years as a time span. I don't view the 1,000 years as a time span, but as symbolic for the fulfillment of the Davidic covenant.



So then you believe the 2nd coming occurs at the same time as Satan's little season?



Where does the amil church place the "loosing of satan" in regards to the millennium, before or after the 1,000 years ends?

Who or what is the first resurrection?

 

[Andrewn]

Eusebius wrote that there were no Christians in Jerusalem during the war, but that they fled before the war began.

Does Eusebius give dates for when the last Christian left Jerusalem and when the war started? Does he define the start of the wars as 66 AD or 70 AD? Were there any Christians in Jerusalem in 66 AD? Actually, history tells us that Ebionites didn't leave Jerusalem. Perhaps Eusebius didn't count them as Christians. We can continue this nitpicking ad infinitum.

So then you believe the 2nd coming occurs at the same time as Satan's little season?

Obviously Christ's 2nd coming occurs after satan's little season. Perhaps 3 1/2 years later. Or perhaps few minutes later . Rev 16 & 20 don't say.

 

[claninja]

Who or what is the first resurrection?

The first resurrection is Christ and all who partake in it by being born again.

 

[claninja]

We can continue this nit picking ad infinitum.

I agree. Take it or leave it that Eusebius states the whole church of Jerusalem fled before the war.

Obviously Christ's 2nd coming occurs after satan's little season. Perhaps 3 1/2 years later. Or perhaps few minutes later . Rev 16 & 20 don't say.

so then do you believe Satan’s little season starts before the millennium ends or after the millennium ends?