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A basic flaw in Partial Preterist interpretation

claninja

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Right. My point being that we have no idea what the early church writers, who wrote nothing on revelation 20 or the millennium, believed about the symbolism of the "1,000" years. The symbolism of the millennium being equal to the time period from the cross til the 2nd coming is largely based on Augustine's city of God, and even in that, Augustine provides 2 ideas as to what the 1,000 years symbolizes.

The early church fathers who you espouse as being amil are pretty much silent on the symbolism of what the 1,000 years means, so we don't really know what they believed it to symbolize. Thus, just because my position holds that the 1,000 years symbolizes the cross and fulfillment of the Davidic throne, which resulted in satan being cast out and bound and those in Christ being born again to become a kingdom of priests, it is ridiculous to ask me what early church fathers taught that.
 
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claninja

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In 2 Kings 25:8-9...…. translated to 587/586 in our calendar.
Why don't you properly address the timeline I presented, instead of making petty comments?

It doesn't say 587/586 in that verse. So where did you get that date? the Bible or writings of man?
 
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sovereigngrace

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Amillennialism is more than one chapter and one tenet. It is a whole complex school of thought! The one thing that is abundantly clear: your Full Preterist views were held by no ECF, or any orthodox Christian since. If I am wrong: present your proponents.
 
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claninja

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I don't espouse that the church fathers held to full preterism, and neither do I. I was simply asking if you had any quotes as to what the early church fathers of the "amil" position thought the 1,000 years represented. A simple no would have sufficed.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Your views are classic Full Preterist. What normal Amils teach your position? Where are your orthodox proponents? What post do you ever dedicate to speaking about a future physical second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ? None! What post of yours are focused on the future physical resurrection? None! You are not interested in either. You are obsessed with the coming of Titus in AD70. How sad! No Old Testament passage or New Testament passage is safe. No event in history is safe. The coming of Titus in AD70 is the apex of Scripture and Christian living.
 
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claninja

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Your views are classic Full Preterist.

I believe in a future coming of Christ, I believe in a future judgment, and future resurrection.
I believe that 66-70ad was a coming judgment of Christ on Israel. This is classic partial preterism.


Again, I was simply asking for quotes from early amil church fathers in regards to their position on what the 1,000 years symbolized. If you can't provide any quotes, a simple no will do.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I understand. Why then do you refuse to speak in any of your many posts about a future second coming of Christ or a future physical resurrection of mankind? What you advance is neo-full preterism.
 
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claninja

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I understand. Why then do you refuse to speak in any of your many posts about a future second coming of Christ or a future physical resurrection of mankind? What you advance is neo-full preterism.

I asked you what the early amil church fathers wrote about as to what the 1,000 years symbolized. not about the 2nd coming. I agree the early amil church fathers believed in a future 2nd coming as they wrote about it frequently, thus there's no reason to discuss that.

Again I'm more interested in what the early amil church fathers thought about the meaning of 1,000 years. This you still have provided no quotes for.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The intermediate state in heaven
I am putting together a few streams of additional evidence. The Amil view of Revelation 20 has as a core belief the idea that the souls of the dead in Christ are now in heaven. The deceased saints reigning with Christ in heaven in and through the first resurrection has always been a fundamental Amillennial tenet. Early Chiliasm was strongly against this, as I have already submitted. A heavenly hope was a central view of early Amillennialism. They held: sin, death and Satan had been conquered through the sinless life, the atoning death and the glorious resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Also, importantly, Hades had been defeated. The elect were released from there after Christ paid the penalty for sin and therefore overcome death. In their beliefs, Christ descended into Hades and led captivity out victoriously.

AD 30-AD 130
12 Amils and 1 Chiliast ECFs

Here are some of ancient Amil thoughts expressed back in the day.

Thaddeus
Edessa, Syria

(1st Century)

Concerning the coming of Jesushe humbled himself, and died and debased his divinity and was crucified, and descended into Hades, and burst the bars which from eternity had not been broken, and raised the dead; for he descended alone, but rose with many, and thus ascended to his Father."

Mathetes (author unknown, Mathetes simply means "a disciple”)
Greece
(A.D 90)

Chapter V. The manners of the Christians

For the Christians are distinguished from other men neither by country, nor language, nor the customs which they observe … They dwell in their own countries, but simply as sojourners … They are in the flesh, but they do not live after the flesh. They pass their days on earth, but they are citizens of heaven.

Chapter VI – The Relation of Christians to the World

Christians are confined in the world as in a prison, and yet they are the preservers of the world. The immortal soul dwells in a mortal tabernacle; and Christians dwell as sojourners in corruptible [bodies], looking for an incorruptible dwelling in the heavens.

Chapter X – The Blessings That Will Flow From Faith

He sent His only begotten Son, to whom He promised the kingdom which is in heaven, and will give it to those that have loved Him.

Thou shalt perceive the true life which is in heaven, when thou shalt despise the apparent death which is here on earth, when thou shalt fear the real death, which is reserved for those that shall be condemned to the eternal fire that shall punish those delivered over to it unto the end.

The grandsons of Jude
Israel

(1st century)

The grandsons of Jude ... when asked [by the Emperor Domitian] about Christ and his kingdom--what it was like, and where it would appear they explained that it was not of this world or anywhere on earth but angelic and in heaven.

The Shepherd of Hermas
Rome, Italy

(written in 88-99 AD)

Parable 1

1[50]:1 He saith to me; "Ye know that ye, who are the servants of God, are dwelling in a foreign land; for your city is far from this city.

1[50]:6 Take heed therefore; as dwelling in a strange land prepare nothing more for thyself but a competency which is sufficient for thee, and make ready that, whensoever the master of this city may desire to cast thee out for thine opposition to his law, thou mayest go forth from his city and depart into thine own city and use thine own law joyfully, free from all insult.

SIMILITUDE 9

The greatest mysteries of the militant and triumphant church which is to be built.

Chapters 151-153


It was necessary, he said, for them to ascend by water so they might be at rest. For they could not otherwise enter into the kingdom of God, except by laying aside the mortality of their former life. Even though they were dead, they were nevertheless sealed with the seal of the Son of God, and so entered into the kingdom of God. For before a man receives the name of the Son of God, he is ordained to death; but when he receives that seal, he is freed from death and assigned to life…

Chapters 157-159

[T]hese Apostles and teachers who preached the name of the Son of God, dying after they had received his faith and power, preached to them who had died before and they this seal to them. Therefore they went down into the water with them, and again came up. But these went down while they were alive, and came up again alive; whereas those who were before dead, went down dead, but came up alive; Through these therefore they received life and knew the Son of God. For this reason they came up with them and were fit to come into the building of the tower uncut and put in whole, because they died in righteousness and in great purity; only this seal was lacking to them.

1 Clement
Bishop of Rome, Italy

(Died around 99 A.D.)

1 Clement 4

By reason of jealousy Aaron and Miriam were lodged outside the camp. Jealousy brought Dathan and Abiram down alive to hades, because they made sedition against Moses the servant of God.

1 Clement 5

Let us set before our eyes the good Apostles. There was Peter who by reason of unrighteous jealousy endured not one nor two but many labours, and thus having borne his testimony went to his appointed place of glory. By reason of jealousy and strife Paul by his example pointed out the prize of patient endurance. After that he had been seven times in bonds, had been driven into exile, had been stoned, had preached in the East and in the West, he won the noble renown which was the reward of his faith, having taught righteousness unto the whole world and having reached the farthest bounds of the West; and when he had borne his testimony before the rulers, so he departed from the world and went unto the holy place, having been found a notable pattern of patient endurance.

1 Clement 45

They that endured patiently in confidence inherited glory and honour; they were exalted, and had their names recorded by God in their memorial for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Clement 50:1-4

All the generations from Adam unto this day have passed away: but they that by God's grace were perfected in love dwell in the abode of the pious; and they shall be made manifest in the visitation of the Kingdom of God. For it is written; Enter into the closet for a very little while until Mine anger and Mine wrath shall pass away, and I will remember a good day and will raise you from your tombs. Blessed were we, dearly beloved, if we should be doing the commandments of God in concord of love, to the end that our sins may through love be forgiven us.

2 Clement
Rome, Italy
(Early 2nd century)

Chapter XVI

Chapter 5

The lambs have no cause after they are dead to fear the wolves; and in like manner, fear not them that kill you, and can do nothing more unto you; but fear Him who, after you are dead, has power over both soul and body to cast them into hell-fire. And consider, brethren, that the sojourning in the flesh in this world is but brief and transient, but the promise of Christ is great and wonderful, even the rest of the kingdom to come, and of life everlasting.


Chapter 6.

This world and the next are two enemies. The one urges to adultery and corruption, avarice and deceit; the other bids farewell to these things. We cannot, therefore, be the friends of both; and it behooves us, by renouncing the one, to make sure of the other. Let us reckon that it is better to hate the things present, since they are trifling, and transient, and corruptible; and to love those [which are to come,] as being good and incorruptible we be found possessed of works of holiness and righteousness?

Chapter 7

Let us therefore so strive, that we may all be crowned. Let us run the straight course, even the race that is incorruptible; and let us in great numbers set out for it, and strive that we may be crowned. And should we not all be able to obtain the crown, let us at least come near to it. We must remember that he who strives in the corruptible contest, if he be found acting unfairly, is taken away and scourged, and cast forth from the lists. What then think ye? If one does anything unseemly in the incorruptible contest, what shall he have to bear? For of those who do not preserve the seal [unbroken], [the Scripture] says, Their worm shall not die, and their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be a spectacle to all flesh.

Chapter 20

To the only God, invisible, Father of truth, who sent forth to us the Saviour and Author of immortality, through whom He also manifested to us the truth and the heavenly life, to Him be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Ignatius Bishop of Antioch
Syria
(A.D. 98-117)

Ignatius to the Romans

Chapter II

For it is not my desire to act towards you as a man-pleaser, but as pleasing God, even as also ye please Him. For neither shall I ever have such [another] opportunity of attaining to God; nor will ye, if ye shall now be silent, ever be entitled to the honour of a better work. For if ye are silent concerning me, I shall become God's; but if you show your love to my flesh, I shall again have to run my race. Pray, then, do not seek to confer any greater favour upon me than that I be sacrificed to God while the altar is still prepared; that, being gathered together in love, ye may sing praise to the Father, through Christ Jesus, that God has deemed me, the bishop of Syria, worthy to be sent for from the east unto the west. It is good to set from the world unto God, that I may rise again to Him.

Chapter V.-I Desire to Die.

Now I begin to be a disciple. And let no one, of things visible or invisible, envy me that I should attain to Jesus Christ. Let fire and the cross; let the crowds of wild beasts; let tearings, breakings, and dislocations of bones; let cutting off of members; let shatterings of the whole body; and let all the dreadful torments of the devil come upon me: only let me attain to Jesus Christ.

Chapter VI.-By Death I Shall Attain True Life.

It is better for me to die in behalf of Jesus Christ, than to reign over all the ends of the earth. "For what shall a man be profited, if he gain the whole world, but lose his own soul? " Him I seek, who died for us: Him I desire, who rose again for our sake. This is the gain which is laid up for me. Pardon me, brethren: do not hinder me from living, do not wish to keep me in a state of death; and while I desire to belong to God, do not ye give me over to the world.

Chapter IX.-Pray for the Church in Syria.

But I have obtained mercy to be somebody, if I shall attain to God.

Letter of Ignatius of Antioch to the Ephesians

Chapter IX – Ye Have Given No Heed to False Teachers.


From his power Jesus Christ will deliver you, who has founded you upon the rock, as being chosen stones, well fitted for the divine edifice of the Father, and who are raised up on high by Christ, who was crucified for you, making use of the Holy Spirit as a rope, and being borne up by faith, while exalted by love from earth to heaven, walking in company with those that are undefiled.

Chapter IX.-Reference to the History of Christ.

For says the Scripture, "Many bodies of the saints that slept arose," their graves being opened. He descended, indeed, into Hades alone, but He arose accompanied by a multitude; and rent asunder that means of separation which had existed from the beginning of the world, and cast down its partition-wall.

Ignatius to the Magnesians (shorter version)

Chapter 9. Let us live with Christ


[E]ndure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master— how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, having come, raised them from the dead.

Polycarp
Bishop in Smyrna, Turkey

(Born AD 68, martyred about AD 155)

Chapter IV.-Beware of These Heretics.

And why have I also surrendered myself to death, to fire, to the sword, to the wild beasts? But, [in fact,] he who is near to the sword is near to God; he that is among the wild beasts is in company with God; provided only he be so in the name of Jesus Christ. I undergo all these things that I may suffer together with Him, He who became a perfect man inwardly strengthening me.

Chapter 5. The duties of deacons, youths, and virgins

We must please God in this present life, that He may bestow upon us the future life. They that are true citizens of Christ's kingdom now shall themselves be kings with Him hereafter.

Chapter 9. Patience inculcated

I exhort you all, therefore, to yield obedience to the word of righteousness, and to exercise all patience, such as you have seen [set] before your eyes, not only in the case of the blessed Ignatius, and Zosimus, and Rufus, but also in others among yourselves, and in Paul himself, and the rest of the apostles. [This do] in the assurance that all these have not run; in vain, but in faith and righteousness, and that they are [now] in their due place in the presence of the Lord, with whom also they suffered.

Martyrdom of Polycarp

Chapter 17, 1

The evil one, who is the opponent and envier, who is the enemy to the race of men, beholding both the greatness of his (Polycarp’s) testimony and his conversation blameless from the beginning, how he was crowned with a crown of immortality, and how he carried off a prize that could not be spoken against, contrived that not even a relic of him should be taken by us, though many desired to do this, and to communicate with his holy flesh.

The Ascension of Isaiah
Palestine
(late 1st century to early 2nd century)

Chapter 9

14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.
15. And thus His descent, as you will see, will be hidden even from the heavens, so that it will not be known who He is.

16. And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the third day, [and he will remain in that world five hundred and forty-five days].
17. And then many of the righteous will ascend with Him, whose spirits do not receive their garments till the Lord Christ ascend and they ascend with Him.
18. Then indeed they will receive their [garments and] thrones and crowns, when He has ascended into the seventh heaven."
 
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claninja

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Thank you again for these quotes, but this doesn't tell me what they believed the "1,000 years" represented.

I'll give you an example. Notice Augustine presents 2 different interpretations of the meaning of the 1,000 years. Augustine believed that the 1,000 years was to be understood as "these things; the binding of satan" occurred in the 6th thousandth year or 6th millennium which was to be followed by the 7th unending day for the resting of saints. OR the 1,000 years = the whole duration of the world.



"Now the thousand years may be understood in two ways, so far as occurs to me: 1.) either because these things happen in the sixth thousand of years or sixth millennium (the latter part of which is now passing), as if during the sixth day, which is to be followed by a Sabbath which has no evening, the endless rest of the saints, so that, speaking of a part under the name of the whole, he calls the last part of the millennium—the part, that is, which had yet to expire before the end of the world—a thousand years; 2.) or he used the thousand years as an equivalent for the whole duration of this world, employing the number of perfection to mark the fulness of time. For a thousand is the cube of ten. For ten times ten makes a hundred, that is, the square on a plane superficies. But to give this superficies height, and make it a cube, the hundred is again multiplied by ten, which gives a thousand. Besides, if a hundred is[704] of which the apostle gives, as it were, an explanation when he says, "As having nothing, yet possessing all things,"[705]—for even of old it had been said, The whole world is the wealth of a believer,—with how much greater reason is a thousand put for totality since it is the cube, while the other is only the square?"

Can you provide any early amil church fathers that detail as to what they believe the "1,000" year represents like augustine did?

 
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sovereigngrace

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I understand that. I've already told you that. I'm not trying to prove anything to you. I am writing this more for the objective onlooker who wants to see the development of the doctrine. The more the snowball rolls, the more detail is revealed. I will stop responding to you on this matter because you're not getting the reason for my submissions.
 
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keras

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It doesn't say 587/586 in that verse. So where did you get that date? the Bible or writings of man?
This is stupidity.
Anyone reading your posts can soon see that your agenda is to denigrate and to reject anything that shows a future final fulfilment of the prophesies that vividly describe huge worldwide changes. Dramatic events that will lead up to the Return of Jesus.

Your attempts to use the ECF's to support your preterist claims, shows the paucity and lack of Bible support of your false notions.
 
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Adamina

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A google search turned up a some links on that view.
For myself, I don't see any difference between partial preterism and amillennialism......

https://www.google.com/search?clien...MxLjSYAQCgAQKgAQGqAQdnd3Mtd2l6&sclient=psy-ab

Search Results
Web results

Amillennialism in the Early Church - Third Millennium Ministries
thirdmill.org › answers › answer.asp › file

Amillennialism in the Early Church. Question. While writing an impassioned essay on the historical and scriptural merits of amillennialism, the author writes:.

3. Amillenniallism in the Ancient Church | Bible.org
bible.org › seriespage › 3-amillenniallism-ancient-church

Jan 1, 2008 - While the early church was concerned over many doctrinal questions, ... If the amillennial viewpoint as held in modern times is correct, it would ...

Why the Early Church Finally Rejected Premillennialism ...
www.monergism.com › why-early-church-finally-rejected-premillenn...

But how are we to view the Church's earliest period up until the first decisive ... (what we would today call amillennial) understanding of the return of Christ.

www.reddit.com › OrthodoxChristianity › comments › amillennialism...
Amillennialism in the Early, Early Church? The Orthodox church is amillennialist (believe that the thousand year kingdom is symbolic and started after Christ's ...

The Early Fathers and their eschatology | The Puritan Board
www.puritanboard.com › Forums › The Church › Church History

Dec 31, 2011 - 30 posts - ‎8 authors
I think historians understand the early church fathers not to be amillennial because the ones that wrote specifically on eschatology and the ...

Amillennialism - New World Encyclopedia
www.newworldencyclopedia.org › entry › Amillennialism

Jump to The early church - Many mainline churches today continue to endorse amillennialism. History. The early church. Although the term amillennialism, ...

The Eschatology of the Early Church - Christianity In History
christianityinhistory.blogspot.com › 2007/10 › eschatology-of-early-c...

Oct 10, 2007 - There are a handful of others who may have been, but the vast majority of the early church fathers were clearly amillennial. Reply .

Amillennialism Study Archive – The Preterist Archive of ...
www.preteristarchive.com › amillennialism-study-archive

That the historical and prophetical parts of the Bible must be interpreted alike. All prophecy either has been or will be fulfilled physically. That all of the Old ...

The Amillennial Preterism of Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 162 ...
www.preteristarchive.com › the-amillennial-preterism-of-clement-of-a...

The 144,000 are protected during the three and a half years of tribulation when Satan goes after the rest of the seed of the woman. Patricia (ndbpsa ©) Bible ...
============================
Google search for topics on CF:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ami...GDQIHYS0D-YQrQIoBDAAegQIBBAP&biw=1138&bih=522

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amillennialism
 
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Adamina

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Name partial preterists and/or amills that believes the final resurrection of the dead and white throne judgment at the end of the world after the 1000ys has happened.

Statement of Purpose - Eschatology Forum Statement of Purpose
  • Partial Preterism: Partial preterism holds that most eschatological prophecies, such as the destruction of Jerusalem, the Antichrists, the Great Tribulation, and the advent of the Day of the Lord as a "judgment-coming" of Christ, were fulfilled either in AD 70 or during the persecution of Christians under the Emperor Nero.
  • The Second coming and the resurrection of the dead, however, have not yet occurred in the partial preterist system.
  • Amillennialism: "no millennium", rejects the theory that Jesus Christ will have a thousand-year-long, physical reign on the earth. The amillennial viewpoint holds that the thousand years mentioned in Revelation 20 is a symbolic number, not a literal description; that the millennium has already begun and is identical with the current church age.
 
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sovereigngrace

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What is your point?
 
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Adamina

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Adamina said:
Name partial preterists and/or amills that believes the final resurrection of the dead and white throne judgment after the 1000ys has happened.
What is your point?
So you don't have an answer?
You practically inferred that another member as being a full preterist........
 
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sovereigngrace

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So you don't have an answer?
You practically inferred that another member as being a full preterist........

I did not say he was a Full Preterist. Claninja has admitted to holding the following Full Preterist views. These are not classic Partial Preterist views:
  • The old covenant ending at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • The new covenant commencing at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • That of “this age” ending at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • That of the age to come” starting at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • That of “the last days” finishing at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • That of “the last day” of “the last days” occurring at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • That of “the day of redemption” happening at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • That of “the coming of the Lord” arriving at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • That of “the resurrection” of the just and the unjust happening at the coming of Titus in AD70.
  • That of “the judgment” of the just and the unjust happening at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • That of the old corrupt heavens and earth being replaced at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
  • That of “the new heavens and new earth” appearing at the coming of Titus in AD 70.
 
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Adamina

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That is quite a list.
Yes, Scriptural knowledge along with truth is good:
1st rule: Have a good overall knowledge of scriptural truth.
YLT)
Mat 22:29
And Jesus answering said to them, 'Ye go astray, not knowing the Writings, nor the power of God;
Jhn 5:39
'Ye search the Writings, because ye think in them to have life age-during, and these are they that are testifying concerning me;
2Pe 3:
16

as also in all the epistles, speaking in them concerning these things, among which things are certain hard to be understood,
which the untaught and unstable do wrest, as also the other Writings, unto their own destruction.
18
and increase ye in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ; to him is the glory both now, and to the day of the age! Amen.
 
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Andrewn

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Yes, I do.

There are several point to correct in the above statement.

1) The point is not persecution of the Jews but of the true Israel, the Church of God. Before Christ's 1st coming, this was the Jews. Now, it's the Christians.

2) The definition of "gentile" is "non-believer," someone who doesn't belong to the Church / Kingdom of God.

3) The empires currently ruling the world are described as the Beast of Revelation who has characteristics of the previous 4 empires of Daniel.

4) I don't takes sides as to whether after the 2nd coming Christ will rule an earthly or a heavenly Jerusalem. Either way, it will be a new heaven and new earth.

5) Before the 2nd coming, the "great tribulation" will reach epic proportions in the war of Armageddon / Gog & Magog.

6) Even though Christ is already King over the whole earth presently, a lot of people / kingdom still do not acknowledge His lordship.

7) After the 2nd coming all knees will bow to him and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord, on earth and in heaven, and under the earth.

my position holds that the 1,000 years symbolizes the cross and fulfillment of the Davidic throne,
I find this eschatological idea quite strange. To say that satan was bound during a millennium extending from David's reign (1010 - 970 BC) to 66 AD is unsupported.
 
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