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9/11 Truth for Dummies: Wrap Your Head Around One Thing

cow451

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Still not one mathematical formula I can scrutinize. All I get is a bunch of people telling me how stupid I am.
Now the observed time t = 10 seconds If you prove me wrong I will conceded my point, and offer you an apology.


The fall time was at least eleven seconds. You are also still arguing against the long-discarded Pancake Theory. So, even with perfect math, you get an "F" for working the wrong problem. Apology accepted.
 
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H

HorsieJuice

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Prove to me this calculation is wrong:

(1/2) x g x t2 = (1/2) x G x T2 = (1/2) x 0.7 x g x T2.

Hence, t2 = 0.7 x T2, or (t/T) = (0.7)1/2 = 0.837. Or, T = 1.195 t.

First of all - some of your assumptions are wrong.

You got this 30% or 0.7g figure from your calculation that 30% of the available gravitational energy would be absorbed by the energy required to pulverize the building material into a "pyroclastic" state.

Problem is - the material wasn't pulverized to nearly as uniformly fine a state as you claim. And even if it were, it didn't have to be pulverized immediately (i.e., it could have been pulverized after the falling mass had picked up speed).

So right off the bat, you're assuming way too much energy is being absorbed by the pulverization.

Second, that 30% figure would not remain constant throughout the fall. If anything, it'd decrease. The more mass something has, the more momentum it has and the easier it can penetrate something else. (p=mv, where p is momentum)

Even without that formula, this principle should be fairly obvious from looking at any sort of impact. For example, a .22 round has less penetrating power than other rounds with similar muzzle velocities and material rigidity, merely by virtue of the fact that the .22 round has less momentum with which to overcome the obstruction.

As the building collapsed, the falling mass both accreted material and gained speed (due to gravitational acceleration). IOW, the falling mass picked up momentum as it fell, so it would have an easier time punching through subsequent floors. Assuming your 30% figure is correct for the first floor (which it likely isn't), it would still be reduced with each subsequent floor.


The official media/government theorists may propose a figure of 30%, but Jim Hoffman (October 16th, 2003) actually calculates that:
  • 111,000 KWH is generated by the collapse of each tower (mass = 1.97 x 1011 grams falling average of 207 meters)
  • 135,000 KWH is needed to crush the concrete (9 x 1010 grams to 60 micron powder)
  • 2,682,000 KWH is needed to create the dust cloud (this assumes a sufficient source of water or this figure increases dramatically)
which means that 122% of the gravitational collapse energy was necessary just to pulverize the concrete (let alone create the dust cloud), that is, more energy was needed just to pulverize the concrete than was generated by the collapse.

I have no idea where he got those numbers from, and it's painfully obvious from the errors in this that you don't understand it either:

1.97 * 1011 g = 1991.67 g = 4.38 lb
9 * 1010 g = 9090 g = 19.998 lb

The numbers you provided add up to about 24 lb of concrete dust, which you claim required 246000kWh to pulverize. For a point of reference, the average US home uses about 11,280kWh / yr. So, according to your numbers, the amount of energy you claim is required to pulverize a medium-sized bag of dust could power the average US home for the next 20 years.

That's absurd on its face. I could probably grind up that much dust by hand within a couple days.


Post your own mathematical findings so I can go over them with a Dr. in UCF the same way I inquired about my own calculations. We live in an educated age gentlemen, if I don't know how to do something, there is always someone with the ability, and the willingness to teach me.

Yes, and some of us are right here. You still haven't answered my question about the 75 lb dumbbell held at arm's length.

Post the math so it can be scrutinized. Prove my calculations wrong. If you prove me wrong I will conceded my point, and offer you an apology.

There's more to this than just plugging numbers into an equation. If you'd taken physics, you'd understand that the bigger challenge is determining the correct equation to use.
 
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Paul01

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...Post your own mathematical findings so I can go over them with a Dr. in UCF the same way I inquired about my own calculations. We live in an educated age gentlemen, if I don't know how to do something, there is always someone with the ability, and the willingness to teach me. Post the math so it can be scrutinized. Prove my calculations wrong. If you prove me wrong I will conceded my point, and offer you an apology.

If you have access to sitting down with a prof. of engineering, I think that's a great idea. Walk him/her through your logic and maybe they can offer you better help than you are getting here.
 
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Zanting

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Posted in: National News, World News

In an international campaign by rethink911.org, billboards have been going up in cities all around the world.

I find it very interesting that some still adhere to the official story...and still are derogatory to those who don't.
 
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Btodd

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Science by billboards!:p

By the way, I find it ironic that you're surprised if people are derogatory toward the Truth Movement, when the title of this thread is '9/11 Truth for Dummies', and the article it was copy-n-pasted from is called '9/11 Truth for Complete Retards'.

But I have to agree, the 9/11 Truth Movement is for such people. ;)


Btodd
 
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Zanting

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Btodd...
Believe what you want about 911, but have some respect for the death, devastation and war that is still going on because of that day. The world changed because of that day? People and communities changed because of that day. Laws changed and freedoms lost because of that day.

Inflaming and inciting another person doesn't lead anywhere, is completely counter productive and shows no intelligent debating abilities whatsoever.
 
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Btodd

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Btodd...
Believe what you want about 911, but have some respect for the death, devastation and war that is still going on because of that day. The world changed because of that day? People and communities changed because of that day. Laws changed and freedoms lost because of that day.

Inflaming and inciting another person doesn't lead anywhere, is completely counter productive and shows no intelligent debating abilities whatsoever.

Did you miss my last post? Where's your condemnation of calling people who don't believe in the conspiracy 'dummies' or 'retards'?

I actually do respect the victims of that tragedy, which is why I find this conspiracy nonsense (which accuses innocent people of crimes, and excuses terrorists as being innocent or made-up) particularly offensive. You ever hear a Truther state that people who spoke to their loved ones one last time as they flew to their death were talking to a voice-morphed fake? Or that the NYC Firefighters were in on it? Or that no bodies were found at the Pentagon? That no plane crashed there, and all of the witnesses are liars?

You don't have to like it.


Btodd
 
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cow451

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Btodd...
Believe what you want about 911, but have some respect for the death, devastation and war that is still going on because of that day. The world changed because of that day? People and communities changed because of that day. Laws changed and freedoms lost because of that day.

Inflaming and inciting another person doesn't lead anywhere, is completely counter productive and shows no intelligent debating abilities whatsoever.

Pot, meet Kettle.:cool:
 
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Zanting

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No Btodd...I didn't miss what you said...but it all started with the "officials" spouting the official "story" and being derogatory toward those who lost loved ones in the towers who did not get any answers to their questions...it was they who then decided to get answers elsewhere...and from there...it took on a life of its own.

But since you seem so well acquainted with the subject, I would have thought you already knew how it all started and why NOW...those who don't believe the official "story" have become much bolder and retaliate in kind. Exactly what inciting and inflaming the "other" generates.

Indeed, it is also true, that those in the "truth movement" will be the first to stop and walk away from that kind of useless banter while the "other" continues most often with personal attacks. The badgering was and still is coming primarily from the official "story" believers.
 
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Btodd

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No Btodd...I didn't miss what you said...but it all started with the "officials" spouting the official "story" and being derogatory toward those who lost loved ones in the towers who did not get any answers to their questions...it was they who then decided to get answers elsewhere...and from there...it took on a life of its own.

That is NOT how it all started. It all started immediately after the attacks when people began making wild speculations, distorting facts and kept repeating these things over and over. And it grew until it finally called itself a 'movement'.

And no matter how many times these things are addressed, they simply get repeated again ad nauseum.

'Melted steel', 'free fall', 'pull it', etc.

When people cannot be reasoned with, they get ridicule. In fact, a fellow named Thomas Jefferson actually said something about that...


Btodd
 
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cow451

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Indeed, it is also true, that those in the "truth movement" will be the first to stop and walk away from that kind of useless banter while the "other" continues most often with personal attacks. The badgering was and still is coming primarily from the official "story" believers.

Uhhhhh.... did you happen to notice the title of this thread? Of all the titles possible, this is the one chosen to begin a thoughtful discussion.....
 
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Zanting

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Uhhhhh.... did you happen to notice the title of this thread? Of all the titles possible, this is the one chosen to begin a thoughtful discussion.....


Yes I did…a title borrowed from a popular series of books that make a great deal of money…and contain serious content despite the title. Seems to me there are a number of ways one can choose to perceive it's intent.
 
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cow451

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Yes I did…a title borrowed from a popular series of books that make a great deal of money…and contain serious content despite the title. Seems to me there are a number of ways one can choose to perceive it's intent.

The books you cite are basically "How to.." books. Very different than the intent here.
 
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Zanting

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That is NOT how it all started. It all started immediately after the attacks when people began making wild speculations, distorting facts and kept repeating these things over and over. And it grew until it finally called itself a 'movement'.

And no matter how many times these things are addressed, they simply get repeated again ad nauseum.

'Melted steel', 'free fall', 'pull it', etc.

When people cannot be reasoned with, they get ridicule. In fact, a fellow named Thomas Jefferson actually said something about that...


Btodd



You are right…people had doubts right from the beginning, speculation and questions also came from people who experienced something firsthand…the witnesses…You can claim that some of these people produced wild speculations…and I would agree, but not all of them.

The majority of people worldwide were glued to news stations on TV to get information about what happened. Initially, nobody really focused on questioning anything they were told. People were in shock and were trying to make sense of something that for all intents and purposes didn't. They trusted news services to give them answers. And most people believed what they were told, whether it made sense or not. Indeed, they did and many still do.

I'm not sure how you can state that the whole derogatory, conspiracy “nut” theory did not originate among the officials and the victims families right in NYC, USA…unless you simply don't believe what the families have publically reported.

Perspective truly is everything.

So...

One conspiracy theory full of holes initiates another conspiracy theory to fill the holes...yup...that's just crazy. :doh:

"Truth Movement"...what a bunch of crazy nonsense...hmph...people who want to know the truth...must be something very sinister going on there.
 
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cow451

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Choose to perceive...you missed that...obviously how you viewed it's intent is very different from mine...

The "Dummie" books also have accurate and factual information, unlike the OP.
 
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Zanting

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The "Dummie" books also have accurate and factual information, unlike the OP.

Exactly...they are serious books...meant to provide knowledge about something...

Speculating math formulas regarding the collapse of the towers...including building 7...is all well and good in theory...and on paper...or simulations, but does not always explain what happens in reality...especially if any information is missing from the equation. It is all speculation when unknown variables are present.

Are all the variables present?
 
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cow451

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Exactly...they are serious books...meant to provide knowledge about something...

Speculating math formulas regarding the collapse of the towers...including building 7...is all well and good in theory...and on paper...or simulations, but does not always explain what happens in reality...especially if any information is missing from the equation. It is all speculation when unknown variables are present.

Are all the variables present?

The "Dummies" books don't speculate, distort facts nor promote already-disproven ideas or engage in reckless accusations.
 
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Zanting

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The "Dummies" books don't speculate, distort facts nor promote already-disproven ideas or engage in reckless accusations.

Ah...now that indeed is the pot meeting the kettle.

If you must insist focusing solely on the title as an insult toward those who have constantly and consistently "distorted facts, or promoted already-disproven ideas or engaged in reckless accusations against any and all people who do not believe the official story", perhaps you should start another thread about why that perception occurs.

The OP is presenting a math formula...that is what I perceive as the topic. Personal attacks distract from the topic and generate emotional responses, no matter which side of the debate you are on.
 
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