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MyChainsAreGone

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If Adam and Eve did not feel wrong about being naked until after they sinned. Could God does not see the human body in a way as we do. They were naked before that right?
Maybe God sees our bodies as a beautiful thing and sin twists the image.
SPOT ON, VmaeLove!

God's view of the unclad human form did NOT change when Adam and Eve sinned.

Adam and Eve's "new" view of their own nakedness was informed by Satan, for who else could be the "Who" of "Who told you that you were naked?"?

After they sinned, Adam and Eve did nothing right...
  • Instead of repenting of their real sin of disobedience, they falsely assigned their shame to their bodies and covered their genitals.
  • Instead of running TO God to confess their sin, they hid FROM God.
  • When confronted about their sin, they deflected the blame to another.
NONE of these actions are worthy of our emulation. All of them were sin.

This means that when we adopt the body-shame of Adam and Eve, we join them in their insult to their Creator, in Whose image they were created.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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My fashion style at my 9-5:
EF6BC039-7E2F-43F3-BBA0-6050F017296C.jpeg A0DA70FB-BE65-42D4-82FF-6C68BC1599D4.jpeg C0DB92BE-EEF2-4E22-8F89-2F7D47A7F98A.jpeg 331C3AFD-2174-403F-A710-314F6366B5A2.jpeg
45E2AFE4-6AC5-41EA-970D-702648424775.jpeg
 
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AbbaLove

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I would have thought that ideally, we would dress neither for what women or for men think, but for the purpose of our day?
IMMO, you're 100% Right-On! However, since Marshall McLuhan's 1967 book The Medium is the Massage (Message) followed by the ever increasing propensity of slick photo spreads by advertising agencies most women (and men) have become way too captivated with current fashion trends and "keeping up with the Jones"

Would today's Christian woman wear the following modest attire (with bare feet) in a church or synagogue during a special Holy Day?

qnoor_march_2018_0090_500x.jpg

Bride Of Christ
Me thinks the whole package is simply beautiful for the purpose of that very special Holy Day
 
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ChicanaRose

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I like shawls and scarves (especially the infinity scarves). They are versatile and can make outfits more modest.

For example, I could wear shawl as a cover over a tight shirt. A scarf could also turn into a head covering if I am entering a traditional church.

 
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AbbaLove

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For example, I could wear shawl as a cover over a tight shirt. A scarf could also turn into a head covering if I am entering a traditional church.
Also, think it's AOK that today's Messianic Judaism and Messianic Christian women are designing and weaving/sewing their own fashionable idea for what a women's Tallit would be appropriate attire (Galatians 3:28) :)
 
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MyChainsAreGone

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The OP clearly states my intentions for this thread.

The greater goal is to provide a safe venue to discuss a topic that is heavily debated and often misapplied to men and women wholly based on the other’s perspective.
...
This is not a debate on modesty in itself. If you would like to discuss that from a biblical perspective I think a separate thread is best.

This thread is meant to provide an opportunity to share their perspective and challenges if applicable. Without argument or defense.
Point taken.
 
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Halbhh

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What does Christian modesty mean for men and women in today’s culture?

To facilitate the discussion I’m requesting three things from respondents:

— Please share an opinion based on your gender first. This subject skews disproportionately towards women and I would like to see edifying comments for both sexes.

— Please provide biblical support for your opinion if applicable.

— And for the sake of clarity for everyone, please share a visible example of the modest attire you’re addressing. Please avoid posting immodest images or videos in deference to those with struggles.

Thank you. I look forward to your response. :)
For both genders, modesty meaning that we should not being trying to draw attention to our bodies/adornment. That means both modest clothing and also modest adornments. There is a huge range of clothing that is sufficiently modest though, so it's not like some extreme example. Even 'nice' clothes can be modest very easily. It's when clothing makes others stumble, for instance getting envious, that we are not wearing the right clothes. (in a less common situation where someone wears nice but modest clothing and it does make someone envious, then it can be we may need to be generous and help that person with clothing, by gift)
 
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All4Christ

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Thanks for that well-researched post!

I did not know about Clement's writings.

I scanned some of his works, though, and I have to say that I don't believe he is a credible source. He takes a LOT of unusual position... including the notion that men should not shave or even comb their hair... presuming that such actions were efforts to appear effeminate and/or to attract sexual attention from women or other men.

Clement's presumption with "licentiousness" in everyone leads him to say awful things like the passage you posted, where a woman's very form is to be considered a danger to men. This is more like Gnosticism (spirit good, body bad) than it is true biblical theology.

Clement was also at odds with other early church fathers.

It is not well known today, but even in Clement's time, the baptism ritual in the church was performed with the one being baptized fully naked. This is documented in a the writings of a contemporary of Clement, Hippolytus of Rome, who described the rite of baptism in detail in his work, Apostolic Tradition.

In 21:2-3 he writes: "When they come to the water [for baptism]... Then they shall take off all their clothes." In the verses that follow, it's clear that men, women, and children are all baptized in the same place and time (at one baptism event). Then in verse 11, after some renunciations of Satan and before the profession of belief (vss 12-18), it says this:

"Then, after these things, the bishop passes each of them on nude to the elder who stands at the water. They shall stand in the water naked. A deacon, likewise, will go down with them into the water."​

I searched through Clement's writings to try to find anything that described the actual rite of baptism, but could find none.

There are other strong indications that early church baptism was performed nude. The early church adopted the Jewish practice of baptism--called the mikveh--which has always (and to this day) required complete nudity in order to be considered valid. Also, if you look at early Christian artwork, the more ancient the artwork, the more likely it will be depicting those being baptized as completely unclothed. There are many such depictions of Jesus' baptism with Jesus completely unclothed.

So, I do not give any credence to Clement's commentary about "modesty"... they simply do not have any foundation in God's word and they are literally in opposition to the historical fact that the early church baptized people unclothed.

Furthermore, the Gymnasiums (from the Greek gumnas, "naked") were right there during the time of Christ and the Apostles. So were the public baths. Even Jerusalem had them (Maccabees mentions it in 1 Maccabees 1:14). Not only did Jesus AND the NT writers neglect to EVER condemn the public nudity in those places (which everyone knew about), they never once forbade Christians from attending them.

And... Paul used imagery in his writings that alluded directly to the activities engaged in within the gymnasiums. This included running, boxing, wrestling... all athletic activities performed while nude. The writer of Hebrews also invokes the imagery of an Olympic foot race in Hebrews 12:1. Finally, Paul references "exercise" (bodily discipline) as having some value in 1 Timothy 4:8, and the word he used for "exercise" is literally the word "gumnadzo"... based on the Greek word describing naked exercise.

There's simply no explanation for why Jesus and the NT writers failed to address such public nudity except the simple fact that there was no moral need to speak against the exposed human form... and it was fully exposed at every Christian baptism. Our bodies and their shapes are not the problem... our hearts are the problem when it comes to lust. THAT is what the bible teaches about lust... the bible never teaches "covering the body" as a solution to lust... so... that can't be what Paul meant.
Clement is just one of many who taught that, but we certainly can agree to disagree on it. :)

One note - I am aware of the baptismal practices and associated liturgical practices, as well as the Apostolic Constitutions (late 4th century). I’ve read and studied most liturgical texts and associated writings from Jewish times up through today.

Did you know that Clement was a candidate for being in the scriptural canon? Multiple early lists of scripture include his epistles.

That said, I don’t plan to debate this. I know what the Church has taught since the apostolic times, but like I said, we can agree to disagree.

ETA: I’m not trying to debate this topic - just a quick response to the previous post.
 
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Tropical Wilds

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@Tropical Wilds

Very nice! Now I’m craving boots thanks to you! ~lol

September 1st it was 80 but I slid my boots on and gave zero carps. I wear them until May 1st and I love them. Without boots, kimono tops, and tank tops, I would explode.
 
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MyChainsAreGone

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Clement is just one of many who taught that, but we certainly can agree to disagree on it. :)
Thanks for replying. I'm cool with that.

Can you give me some examples of others who taught the same thing, though?
One note - I am aware of the baptismal practices and associated liturgical practices, as well as the Apostolic Constitutions (late 4th century). I’ve read and studied most liturgical texts and associated writings from Jewish times up through today.
How do you harmonize the practice of nude baptism with the assertions from Clement about the visible female form? (just asking for your perspective...)
That said, I don’t plan to debate this. I know what the Church has taught since the apostolic times, but like I said, we can agree to disagree.

ETA: I’m not trying to debate this topic - just a quick response to the previous post.
Yeah, no need to debate.

But you are making claims about early church fathers that I've not heard before... and I'd like to see them documented, if you don't mind.

And out of curiosity... would you assert that if the early church believed something, that we should embrace it too? Even if it is not included in the Canon of Scripture?
 
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All4Christ

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584276D8-93BF-41E7-B52C-C7B22BD67F74.jpeg 1D856FE1-DA2C-429C-9B99-9950EAD01598.jpeg 06801A34-4543-4EE2-978E-A6434C33F4F8.jpeg 17F7BE64-1283-4E12-8D3C-303952B872E5.jpeg 0B2E319C-98DC-42D0-83CE-1A996E7F444F.jpeg 3B56A86F-211F-46A3-90E5-B2DB2F80624C.jpeg

My style of dress...

If it is inappropriate in regards to modesty for work or church, then it probably is not the right thing to wear elsewhere
 
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Tropical Wilds

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IMMO, you're 100% Right-On! However, since Marshall McLuhan's 1967 book The Medium is the Massage (Message) followed by the ever increasing propensity of slick photo spreads by advertising agencies most women (and men) have become way too captivated with current fashion trends and "keeping up with the Jones"

Would today's Christian woman wear the following modest attire (with bare feet) in a church or synagogue during a special Holy Day?

qnoor_march_2018_0090_500x.jpg

Bride Of Christ
Me thinks the whole package is simply beautiful for the purpose of that very special Holy Day

Not my thing, props to those who do.
 
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MyChainsAreGone

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If it is inappropriate in regards to modesty for work or church, then it probably is not the right thing to wear elsewhere
Do you really mean that?

What about at the park, or doing sports, or swimming?

It is actually scriptural to minimize clothing during sporting events...

Hebrews 12:1 -

Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us,...

  • "great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us" = big crowd gathered to watch a sporting event
  • "let us also lay aside every encumbrance ... which so easily entangles us" = strip to a bare minimum of clothing (which was literally nude in ancient times)
  • "run with endurance the race" = a public sporting event
The writer of Hebrews is asking his readers to call to mind a common public sporting event of their time, reminding them of the importance of running without "encumbrance"--in the runner's case, their clothing--to make a spiritual point of being singlemindedly committed to running our spiritual race well.

Clearly, the writer of Hebrews did not consider naked race-running to be inappropriate in the context he described. Rather, it was a good "object lesson."
 
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All4Christ

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Thanks for replying. I'm cool with that.

Can you give me some examples of others who taught the same thing, though?

How do you harmonize the practice of nude baptism with the assertions from Clement about the visible female form? (just asking for your perspective...)

Yeah, no need to debate.

But you are making claims about early church fathers that I've not heard before... and I'd like to see them documented, if you don't mind.

And out of curiosity... would you assert that if the early church believed something, that we should embrace it too? Even if it is not included in the Canon of Scripture?
I will try to get to this soon, but I have most of my books packed (we are moving), so I need to find the sources online. We also have a busy night, so it may not be tonight. I can’t answer this fully without time to be at my laptop for awhile.
 
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