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[pescador]

Yes, of course, Brian. I don't doubt that. (Good points, by the way!)

But one additional point I'd like to make is that sometimes Christians like to use these kinds of passages--like 1 Corinthians 2:14, or John 14:26--to "hedge out" the legitimacy of some other Christian's interpretation of Scripture, and this is in the face of the fact that each of the interlocutors involved are already ... a Christian, both supposedly being led by the Holy Spirit.

So, here's a question for us to think about: Can we be wrong about how we understand Scripture, even while we are at the same time personally being led by the Holy Spirit?

Yes. There is no question that we can be wrong about how we understand Scripture, considering that it was written thousands of years ago, then translated (both word and meaning) into our receptor language. I often think of Paul's writing to the Corinthians, saying that God will frustrate the intelligence of the intelligent. IMHO there is way too much emphasis on understanding THE MEANING of scripture and too little emphasis on living life according to the Holy Spirit. Remember, the Bible was written then read to a mostly poor and illiterate group of people who had to work extremely hard to survive, not to a bunch of real or imagined academics who have the leisure to debate about THE MEANING of scripture.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

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[pescador]

In context, John 14:26 is Jesus addressing the apostles, and many understand it a gift specially give the writers of the NT, specifically for that purpose.

One should NEVER use 1 Corinthians 2:14 against a brother.



Yes. It's epidemic. We must work at understanding scripture, knowing He will guild us, just as a farmer must work hard in order to rep a harvest, yet knowing he is dependent on God.

BTW, being led by the Spirit is among those things carefully misunderstood by some, ironically.

Would you explain it then? What do you mean by "carefully misunderstood"?

P.S. A lack of political correctness has no regard for offending other people. It separates people who lack empathy from the objects of their barely hidden bigotry.

 

[civilwarbuff]

I totally agree with the last sentence. Much of my time on the various forums is devoted to responding to people who lift one or two verses out of context, then basing all kinds of doctrine and explanations on them, even though they were written to people living in an entirely different culture millennia ago.

So you don't believe that what is written in the OT, with some exceptions, is not also directed to Christians from the early church to present? I am not saying all of it of course, a good part was written exclusively to and for the Jews but much of what was written in just as applicable to our lives today as it was back then......or am I misunderstanding you?

 

[civilwarbuff]

IMHO there is way too much emphasis on understanding THE MEANING of scripture and too little emphasis on living life according to the Holy Spirit.

This statement is somewhat confusing. How would a person know how to live life according to the Holy Spirit if you don't understand the meaning of scripture? It is not like the Holy Spirit whispers in our ears what we are supposed to do; scripture tells us that and the Holy Spirit provides the understanding of the scripture we see and hear so we can live life according to God's dictates.
Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not depend on your own understanding.
So it seems to me we should understand His word if we are to live by it.
Again, maybe I misunterstand what you are saying?

 

[pescador]

So you don't believe that what is written in the OT, with some exceptions, is not also directed to Christians from the early church to present? I am not saying all of it of course, a good part was written exclusively to and for the Jews but much of what was written in just as applicable to our lives today as it was back then......or am I misunderstanding you?

There were no Christians when the OT was written so how could it be written to the early church or to us? It was written to the Jews, which is why Paul distinguished between those who have the law (the Jews) and those who don't (the Gentiles). We have a new covenant entirely that is not dependent on the written word but on Christ.

Of course there is much that we can learn from it, as it is God's word, but as Christians we are to have our lives directed by the living word. John opens his gospel with this message: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth...For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ."

We live under an entirely new covenant with God. The Old Covenant applies to an entirely different group of people: the Jews. It's way too easy to lift parts of the Old Covenant out of context and apply them to those of us who live by an entirely different covenant.

You're a history buff. We became a separate nation when we separated from England and declared our Declaration of Independence, followed by our Constitution. Could the people of the new nation learn from British rule and law? Of course. Were they subject to it? Most definitely not. It would have been foolhardy (and dangerous) to apply British law to the newly formed nation. Likewise, it is wrong to apply the Old Covenant to those of us living under the New Covenant.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Then why is the OT quoted so extensively in the NT if it is also not written to the church?
Matthew 5:8-9
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Isaiah 29:13
And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.
http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

I know we are getting off topic here so if the OP wants I can start a new thread......

 

[pescador]

Then why is the OT quoted so extensively in the NT if it is also not written to the church?
Matthew 5:8-9
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
Isaiah 29:13
And the Lord has said, This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and they honour me with their lips, but their heart is far from me: but in vain do they worship me, teaching the commandments and doctrines of men.
http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

I know we are getting off topic here so if the OP wants I can start a new thread......

When Jesus spoke Isaiah's words in Matthew 15 to the Pharisees (who were living under the Old Covenant), he said, "...you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you [not about Christians].

“‘These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
They worship me in vain;
their teachings are merely human rules."

The New Testament is a collection of "books" written over a period of time by different people, directed to different audiences. The Gospels were written to unbelievers, not to Christians. Acts is a historical continuation of Luke's gospel -- it was originally a two-volume set. Paul's epistles and the "books" that follow were written to Christians. (The introductions to the "books" are very helpful in determining to whom they were written.)

It is critical to an understanding of God's word to know to whom the works were written and why. Not knowing those things lead to all kinds of errors.

Finally, I think we are still on topic, as we're discussing how to read the Bible.

 

[civilwarbuff]

When Jesus spoke Isaiah's words in Matthew 15 to the Pharisees (who were living under the Old Covenant), he said, "...you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you [not about Christians].

And that is my point; words spoken centuries earlier directly applied to Messiahs teaching. Not only applied but was prophesied through Isaiah. It is like that specific encounter between Jesus and the Pharisees was forseen centuries earlier.
I believe this is something we will have to agree to disagree on; I believe the OT has much to say to us today.

 

[pescador]

And that is my point; words spoken centuries earlier directly applied to Messiahs teaching. Not only applied but was prophesied through Isaiah. It is like that specific encounter between Jesus and the Pharisees was forseen centuries earlier.
I believe this is something we will have to agree to disagree on; I believe the OT has much to say to us today.

Agreed to disagree.

 

[pescador]

This statement is somewhat confusing. How would a person know how to live life according to the Holy Spirit if you don't understand the meaning of scripture? It is not like the Holy Spirit whispers in our ears what we are supposed to do; scripture tells us that and the Holy Spirit provides the understanding of the scripture we see and hear so we can live life according to God's dictates.
Proverbs 3
5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not depend on your own understanding.
So it seems to me we should understand His word if we are to live by it.
Again, maybe I misunterstand what you are saying?

You quoted this from Proverbs: "Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not depend on your own understanding."

John wrote this about the Holy Spirit: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

 

[civilwarbuff]

John wrote this about the Holy Spirit: "But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

All the truth, as I see it, is in scripture; so I depend on the HS to guide me there.
"speak only what he hears".....how does He speak it? A voice?.....or some other way?....I have experienced what some would call "laying it upon the heart".....a feeling that if I don't respond in a certain way I will regret it.....at least for a very long time.....maybe that is how He speaks to us.
"he will tell you what is yet to come."......This I have not experienced.....not sure I want to......

 

[pescador]

All the truth, as I see it, is in scripture; so I depend on the HS to guide me there.
"speak only what he hears".....how does He speak it? A voice?.....or some other way?....I have experienced what some would call "laying it upon the heart".....a feeling that if I don't respond in a certain way I will regret it.....at least for a very long time.....maybe that is how He speaks to us.
"he will tell you what is yet to come."......This I have not experienced.....not sure I want to......

This goes right to the heart of a fundamental issue, although it really doesn't belong in a thread about how to read the Bible.

The Old Testament Jews of the Bible had the written word -- the law, the prophets, the other writings -- but obviously didn't have Christ in the flesh. Judaism then and now holds the written word -- the Torah -- to be sacred. The Miḳra (the written word) and the Mishnah (the oral teachings) comprise the two facets of Jewish understanding of God and his ways. Because they held the Torah and Mishna to be the foundation of their religion they didn't recognize the Messiah when he came.

John wrote that "the Word became Flesh dwelt among us". (Wow!) They saw, heard, and touched him. (Wow!) But Jesus couldn't be in human form forever. He had to die and be resurrected. He promised that he would send the Holy Spirit, which he first did on Pentecost, and still does today. I believe with all my heart that if you don't have the Holy Spirit, then you're not part of the body of Christ, a.k.a., a Christian. It's not a matter of what you believe it's a matter of what you have.

Now the Holy Spirit is just that -- a spirit. He is not a part of your body nor a part of your mind. He is a spiritual guide that has been sent to Christians to lead them in this life. You said "I have experienced what some would call "laying it upon the heart".....a feeling that if I don't respond in a certain way I will regret it.....at least for a very long time". IMHO you were being directed by the Spirit at those times. I have similarly been consciously guided by the Spirit at various times, including being spoken to directly this year. (The voice was unlike anything that I have ever heard.) Also, when I accepted Christ as my savior in 1977 I was filled with the Holy Spirit -- the most powerful feeling I have ever experienced anywhere at any time! It was an overwhelming power of love and peace that flooded my entire body.

As much as I am able I try to "listen" to the Holy Spirit at all times. So where does scripture fit in? There are other spirits that are trying to continually affect us. Paul wrote this to the believers at Ephesus, "For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." When I read scripture, not only is my mind lifted by God's word, but it is an affirmation that what I sense is from the Holy Spirit must align with what is written in the Bible.

Here is an example... If I am angry at my wife, for example, the Spirit works on my heart to not remain angry but to calm down and forgive her (and myself), and the Bible says "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her". If I remain angry and, as some do, want to punish her (or worse), then I know that is not the Holy Spirit guiding me but "the spiritual forces of evil".

We have what God's chosen people never had (as a people; there were prophets who individually had the Spirit): God's Holy Spirit. "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth." "No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

So in summary I read God's word because it contains his covenants with the Jews and now with Christians, because it contains history and wisdom and poetry and parables and... But my faith is in God, I live in his Son, and I am guided by the Holy Spirit until I am with God for eternity.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

And that is my point; words spoken centuries earlier directly applied to Messiahs teaching. Not only applied but was prophesied through Isaiah. It is like that specific encounter between Jesus and the Pharisees was forseen centuries earlier.
I believe this is something we will have to agree to disagree on; I believe the OT has much to say to us today.

Civilwarbuff, I think you are partially correct here, even though I think Pescador's framework and approach is similar to mine.

I think you're right that the OT has some aspects in it that are applicable for us to learn from still today, as well as portions that can be encouraging to us and supportive in our endeavor to learn and follow God's Will in Christ. Obviously, if Jesus and the Apostles thought the OT should be drawn from in order to establish various theological points, then we today would be wise to likewise aspire to understand the OT (which can be a very tough thing to do).

However, as Pescador points out, much of the OT, even though it contains more spiritually universal principles regarding God's Will, is still presented within a legal economy (or framework) that directly applied to the Jews only. So, there are some things in the OT that don't apply to us any longer because those things have been fulfilled by Jesus when he enacted the New Covenant (through His death and resurrection), and much of this kind of thing is explained in the book of Hebrews.

Again, I think you're right too! But as Christians we do need to recognize that we need to be careful with how we approach the OT and not over-apply some of its teachings. The New Testament should take precedence.

2PhiloVoid

 

[Michael Scaman]

I have to agree that the OT is foundational in many respects and has much to say to us. All parts of the OT are heavily quoted in the NT but you need to take them in the right way.... so wrap you head around how the apostles took them as example
Not easy... I know...

I recommend a youth paster from the Northeast Washington State area named Keith Ferrin Here is an interview from youtube on reading the Bible

 

[StTruth]

I would read the Bible as a collection of old books, which is what it is. There are errors, contradictions and discrepancies as you would expect such a collection to have. But I would read it through the lenses of the Church which has acted throughout history as a filter for the Bible so that stories that aren't edifying are given a more wholesome interpretation and those that are particularly good are given prominence. But to read the Bible as a literal instruction manual would be disastrous.

 

[Philip_B]

I would read the Bible as a collection of old books, which is what it is.

I would prefer it personally if you had referred to it as a library - which is what the word really means.

 

[Brokenhill]

-Take it as it is...at face value. Don't add conjecture.

-Do not go beyond what God has said; do not avoid a particular thing God has said for sake of ease (see Deut. 4:2, Rev. 22:18)

-Pray that God will guide you to truth, from a sincere heart.

-Read. Reread. Reread. Etc.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

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[jimmyjimmy]

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