.

[LikePeter]

Jesus Christ said that John the baptist was greater than any man born of woman. I think this implies that he had a rating system.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Jesus Christ said that John the baptist was greater than any man born of woman. I think this implies that he had a rating system.

If someone is greater, that someone is lessor. A very unpopular idea these days.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Jesus Christ said that John the baptist was greater than any man born of woman. I think this implies that he had a rating system.

He didn't keep it a secret.
From Genesis through Deuteronomy He tells it all quite frankly.
Despite this, and that HE tells HOW TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT,
despite this, and that HE tells HOW TO PLEASE HIM,
the
whole world goes on in disobedience serving gods that are not gods, "worshiping demons".
So, they each get what they deserve, (they perish),
if they don't each repent.

 

[Frisky Wren]

This is a worthwhile ethical dilemma to ask in a Christian context. Certain details of the scenario matter, IMO, and certain details do not. Politics, for instance, are irrelevant to the ethical dilemma. It could be in Dallas, the sniper could be a police officer or just a citizen with a gun, the assailant could be mentally deranged.

The important points of the dilemma:

1. The distance between the sniper and the point of incident makes it impossible for the sniper to intervene in any other way than pulling the trigger.

2. He has only a moment to make a decision, and there is no reason to think any other intervention (save divine) will occur.

3. The child is young enough that we have rationale to presume she could not have made decision to accept the Lord or not.

4. The imminent crime is heinous enough that we have some justification to presume the assailant does not know the Lord, and he's old enough to have made that decision (Romans 1 pertains even if the man has not heard the gospel).

I spent 26 years in the military, and come from a family that has been wholly military since the Spanish-American War (the daughters even married soldiers). Some scriptures I ponder over these situations:

Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come! The fact that we are in a fallen world means that in most circumstances absolute righteousness in action cannot be obtained. In this fallen world, there is often no absolutely righteous option.

“I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him. Many times the continuance of breathing is not the better choice. If the choice is between someone who has accepted the Lord--and is thus ready to meet his Maker--and someone who is not yet ready, the better option may be to give the one who is not yet ready more time for that choice.

I call this the "Nate Saint Decision." Which option affords the better chance to increase the number in Heaven by one more soul? If the person in danger of losing his life is already saved, allowing the unsaved person to live may be the better choice.

For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. and

For God is not the author of confusion....

I recently heard someone say, "Satan moves freely under the veil of chaos." I've observed this to be true.

For example, currently the most regimented society on earth is North Korea, and for three generations the Kim dynasty has been the most oppressive regime against Christians on earth. What the DPRK has been doing to Christians for three generation has been horrible beyond credibility. Yet the Christian community in North Korea has grown from around 5,000 in the mid 90s to around 50,000 today...so much that Kim Jong Un has essentially abandoned trying to eradicate them and is now trying a ply of co-opting them (creating a "North Korean Orthodox Church").

OTOH, we see a situation of utter chaos like southern Sudan where it appears Christianity can gain no ground even underground.

My observance is that social chaos is a favorable environment for Satan while social order--even oppressive social order--is a favorable environment to the Holy Spirit. And I think that is why Paul and Peter could urge obedience to authorities that maintain social order even when that social order is essentially ungodly. And so a choice to maintain social order as made by a soldier or a police officer might also be the better option to consider because it enhances the environment for the saving of more souls to Heaven.

What a list. And running through it all before choosing to act , the little precious child's throat would already be slit.

 

[Frisky Wren]

If someone is greater, that someone is lessor. A very unpopular idea these days.

And yet people prove it true in their own actions every single day.

 

[Frisky Wren]

You posed a good question, deep and relevant to the topic, in post #150.

Yes I know , I wrote it.

Then you followed it with off-topic silliness.

No I didn't.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

What a list. And running through it all before choosing to act , the little precious child's throat would already be slit.

Usually man chooses based on man, and chooses wrong.
When God chooses,
His Purpose is accomplished;
in egypt, when baby boys were ordered
by the governing authority to be put to death;
in jericho;
in Bethlehem.
.
.
.
in Jerusalem.
.
.
.
.
all over the world since then, for martyrs for the faith.

 

[dougangel]

Jesus Christ said that John the baptist was greater than any man born of woman. I think this implies that he had a rating system.

Yes but it also implies the rating system of God and the worlds prideful rating system is completely different.
I have a few ideas. But I'm not sure what Jesus means by, least here ?

This is an interesting topic and I have wondered about this. It brings out a lot of questions as a Christian like:
Should Christians seek fame ? ( there is even more famous Christians than other Christians)
Is being well known being the least ?
Some Famous well known people who don't have salvation have probably touched and helped more people than I have?
Or have they gone after the right things.

Putting this text in context.
Matthew 11:10-12New International Version (NIV)

10 This is the one about whom it is written:

“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence,[b] and violent people have been raiding it

Some things I have come up with.
Your heaven and your hell is in this life and it is relative to you. You get out what you put in. life is a process of you reaping what you sow eventually. But after the free gift of salvation. For eternal life people have to stand before God and give an total account of what they have done for God.

 

[dougangel]

Here's a for instance given contemporary headlines that have appeared of late.
An ISIS terrorist has a girl child of two on her knees in front of him somewhere in northern Syria. He's holding the blade of an ax against her little neck readying to rear back and strike.
An American military sniper has him in his sights a mile away.

Should the sniper pull the trigger and save the little girl?

He has made the decision to do that when he goes through is sniper training and taking pay.

I think the real question is here.
Should Christians repay evil for evil ?
I know what the gospels say about that.

 

[Frisky Wren]

He has made the decision to do that when he goes through is sniper training and taking pay.

I think the real question is here.
Should Christians repay evil for evil ?
I know what the gospels say about that.

It isn't evil to save a little child's life from a terrorist with a knife at her throat.
You don't believe there are any military or police snipers that are Christian or can be Christians then?

 

[Frisky Wren]

Yes but it also implies the rating system of God and the worlds prideful rating system is completely different.
I have a few ideas. But I'm not sure what Jesus means by, least here ?

This is an interesting topic and I have wondered about this. It brings out a lot of questions as a Christian like:
Should Christians seek fame ? ( there is even more famous Christians than other Christians)
Is being well known being the least ?
Some Famous well known people who don't have salvation have probably touched and helped more people than I have?
Or have they gone after the right things.

Putting this text in context.
Matthew 11:10-12New International Version (NIV)

10 This is the one about whom it is written:

“‘I will send my messenger ahead of you,
who will prepare your way before you.’

11 Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet whoever is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence,[b] and violent people have been raiding it

Some things I have come up with.
Your heaven and your hell is in this life and it is relative to you. You get out what you put in. life is a process of you reaping what you sow eventually. But after the free gift of salvation. For eternal life people have to stand before God and give an total account of what they have done for God.

Yeah, not really a direct answer there.
I don't think God would judge a sniper that saved a little child's life from her potential murderer.

 

[dougangel]

It isn't evil to save a little child's life from a terrorist with a knife at her throat.
You don't believe there are any military or police snipers that are Christian or can be Christians then?

Matthew 5

Love for Enemies

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Can you explain this to me then ?

 

[Frisky Wren]

No idea what you mean to answer there about the fate of a child at the end of a terrorists knife?

 

[dougangel]

No idea what you mean to answer there about the fate of a child at the end of a terrorists knife?

Oh What don't you understand about loving your enemies ?
Do you think the church should get involved with all that ?
Did Christ stop anybody being mistreated or crucified by the Romans ?

 

[Frisky Wren]

Well, you make me feel sorry for the little girl.
Thanks all the same.

 

[dougangel]

Well, you make me feel sorry for the little girl.
Thanks all the same.

Well it's very emotional isn't it. We can feel sorry for every bad thing happening in the world. There's more little girls dying to poverty than like that. Perhaps if countries reduce there military spending and helped countries in poverty less children will die.

Also I believe God would give the child eternal life if she died and wouldn't like to be the terrorist standing before god giving account of themselves.
True Christians should be preaching the gospel healing and praying for people not getting evolved in all that worldly hatred stuff.

 

[RDKirk]

Yeah, not really a direct answer there.
I don't think God would judge a sniper that saved a little child's life from her potential murderer.

Why don't you think that? Please trace for me the line of thought through scripture a Christian police or military sniper would have gone through to come to that conclusion.

I have attempted to trace for you the thought pattern I'd have gone through in order to become a sniper as a Christian. And I've gone through that thought pattern because I personally have the blood of several hundred Iraqi women and children on my hands, and I thought through it as a Christian before I took that job, every day while I was in it, and with other Christian military who had to go through a similar process.

But you're pretty glib about dismissing the idea that thought is even necessary...so what exactly is your rationale?

 

[Frisky Wren]

Why don't you think that? Please trace for me the line of thought through scripture a Christian police or military sniper would have gone through to come to that conclusion.

I have attempted to trace for you the thought pattern I'd have gone through in order to become a sniper as a Christian. And I've gone through that thought pattern because I personally have the blood of several hundred Iraqi women and children on my hands, and I thought through it as a Christian before I took that job, every day while I was in it, and with other Christian military who had to go through a similar process.

But you're pretty glib about dismissing the idea that thought is even necessary...so what exactly is your rationale?

I think you're confused. There are a couple of people here who seem to think you can't shoot that terrorist in the hypothetical I posted in order to save the little girl and be a Christian. That's not true of course. But they have a really hard time defending their advocacy for inaction when their advocacy gets that hypothetical little precious girls throat cut.

Now, as to you. I had no idea you were speaking of personal experience when you posted your other remarks. And frankly it is none of my business.
The point of my question that you chose to respond to was to address those who seem to think you can't be a soldier in order to defend a country or a people and be a Christian too. That all lives matter no matter what. Of course that's bullnuts.
Even God proved that.

My question in that hypothetical was really simple. And you chose to go through a hefty list of thought processes before you responded to the simple question. Do you pull the trigger or don't you?

A sniper knows it is a split second decision when a target escalates to action against an innocent civilian. They pull the trigger. They don't go through a laundry list of stuff like you laid out, consult with their god, commit to prayer and serious introspection while watching that target through that scope. It's innate at that point. It's training. It's reflex. It's action.

You pull the trigger.

Leave your list for later. You just saved a little girl from a terrorist with a knife to her throat.
Does God judge that? The dead terrorist will sure find out he does. As for that sniper I would say God would say, well done my good and faithful servant.

When evil asks us to act in order to save the innocent we choose what we will serve. Rhetoric? Or righteousness.

I was raised in a family that knows what it is to serve. And being there's a restriction on women being snipers in the military my hypothetical answer is really easy. I'd pull the trigger without hesitation. Because a terrorist with a knife to a baby girls throat asks to be dead.

And for that precious baby girl's sake I'd be happy to oblige.

I don't love my enemies.
That insults the people I know that are worthy of my love. To put them in the same embrace as those who would have us dead? Not likely.

Christ like. Jesus = God. The same yesterday, today, and forever. God didn't love his enemies. Neither do I.

 

[ChristianSwede]

Did Isaac Newton matter more than Hitler? Could we not attribute more value to mankind to Newton than Hitler?

Did William Shakespeare matter more than Justin Bieber ever will? Socrates more than Snoop Dog? Abraham Lincoln more than Al Sharpton?

Is it true that some lives matter more than others? Would you trade the life Jonas Salk (cured polio) for that of Kim Kardashian?

How about serial killers like Ted Bundy? Does your life matter more than his?

Do Some Lives Matter More Than Others?

Everything God does is perfect, so we are all an expression of him. Ofcourse some people mean more to us then others.

 

[RDKirk]

I think you're confused. There are a couple of people here who seem to think you can't shoot that terrorist in the hypothetical I posted in order to save the little girl and be a Christian. That's not true of course. But they have a really hard time defending their advocacy for inaction when their advocacy gets that hypothetical little precious girls throat cut.

Now, as to you. I had no idea you were speaking of personal experience when you posted your other remarks. And frankly it is none of my business.
The point of my question that you chose to respond to was to address those who seem to think you can't be a soldier in order to defend a country or a people and be a Christian too. That all lives matter no matter what. Of course that's bullnuts.
Even God proved that.

My question in that hypothetical was really simple. And you chose to go through a hefty list of thought processes before you responded to the simple question. Do you pull the trigger or don't you?

A sniper knows it is a split second decision when a target escalates to action against an innocent civilian. They pull the trigger. They don't go through a laundry list of stuff like you laid out, consult with their god, commit to prayer and serious introspection while watching that target through that scope. It's innate at that point. It's training. It's reflex. It's action.

You pull the trigger.

Leave your list for later. You just saved a little girl from a terrorist with a knife to her throat.

A man goes through through the rationalization process when he takes up the profession. After that, he goes through the training to make it reflexive...and even then, each occasion involves a quick and abbreviated version of the same process, which by training almost seems instantaneous...but it isn't.

In operation, some of those conditions have been pre-determined for him by virtue of the context: In a combat zone or responding to an "active shooter" call--that resolves much of the moral conditions of the choice to be made. Then the rest come as he observes and judges the situation: Who is doing what to whom? And he will likely still need a final "pull the trigger" clue, such as "the kid picked up the rifle" or the clench of teeth, flicker of the eyes, or some other action that he has set as the final decision-making event before the irrevocable act of pulling the trigger.

It's never truly innate, and any man who has not gone through the moral rationalization at some point before is no different from a trained attack dog.

Does God judge that? The dead terrorist will sure find out he does. As for that sniper I would say God would say, well done my good and faithful servant.

When evil asks us to act in order to save the innocent we choose what we will serve. Rhetoric? Or righteousness.

Show proof that choosing a lesser evil unless explicitly directed by the voice of God is a righteous act. Now, I did show scripture indicating that God does, indeed, know who is guilty of creating the "no righteous option" situation, but that does not transform "lesser evil" into "righteous act," it only suggests God will properly assign the guilt.