Ok well posting all those quotes out of context in the old testament Doesn't impress. We are no longer under old testament
See post #205
"You have heard the law that says, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say,
love your enemies! Pray for those who persecute you! In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike. If you love only those who love you, what reward is there for that? Even corrupt tax collectors do that much. If you are kind only to your friends, how are you different from anyone else? Even pagans do that. But you are to be perfect, even as your Father in heaven is perfect." (
Matthew 5:43-48)
There is a law change from the old testament to the new testament. After the cross we are no longer to do eye for an eye.
First, I apologize for the long delay in replying dougangel. I thought I had already established that we weren’t discussing an eye for an eye. We were discussing a sniper who had the ability to save an innocent child from the hand of a murderer. You can keep trying to twist those actions into revenge but this sniper didn’t have any previous interaction with this madman that would give him a reason to take revenge. The sniper also is not repaying evil for evil since no apparent evil has yet occured! What the sniper would be doing is
preventing an innocent child from dying. Since this madman wasn’t the sniper’s personal enemy (although he was the enemy of the child), the verse you quoted about loving your enemy doesn’t apply.
The sniper was wise enough to discern that the child was unable to protect himself, and the murderer was prepared to kill the child. This was a prevention of murder not revenge or hate or an eye for an eye.
When Christ speaks of loving your enemies, He does not speak about allowing evil to overtake innocent children. He is talking about loving those who despise Christ in you. Each man has to stand before God and give account of his actions. Whether self-defense is appropriate for a Christian or not is a matter of conscience since the scripture does not say that we cannot protect ourselves.
The scripture does say that we are called to be fruit inspectors. This is New Testament scripture so hopefully these verses will be acceptable to you.
Matthew 7:16 “You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn
bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 7:18 “A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.”
Matthew 12:33 “Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad;
for the tree is known by its fruit. 12:34 “You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 12:35 “The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 12:36 “But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 12:37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”
Luke 6:45 “The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil
man out of the evil
treasure brings forth what is evil; for his mouth speaks from that which fills his heart. 44 “For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush. 43 “For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit.
A man of discernment will be able to distinguish good from evil! It doesn’t seem like rocket science to me to discern that a man with a knife to the neck of a child is probably not going to bear good fruit. And it is also not rocket science to distinguish that someone who has broken into your home probably does not have godly intentions. If we are true believers, we have the fullness of the Spirit in us to help us discern difficult situations. So whether we decide to defend ourselves or not is between us and God, but make no mistake self-defense is not repaying evil for evil because no evil has yet occurred.
Evil forces good people to do things they would not otherwise do in order to maintain justice and the rights of the innocent!!!! In my opinion, the accountability for these acts will fall on the perpetrator and not on the defender. Had the man not held the knife to the child’s neck then the sniper would never have fired. Had the man not broken into the family’s home, then the father would never have harmed him. The responsibility for any harm that occurs should fall to the person who begins the chain of events that causes it and not to the person
forced to protect the innocent.
We are called to be people who love justice just as God loves justice. We are called to be protectors of the innocent.
Isaiah 30:18 Therefore the LORD longs to be gracious to you, And therefore He waits on high to have compassion on you. For the LORD is a God of justice; How blessed are all those who long for Him.
Are you refusing to acknowledge that it is our duty as Christians to protect the innocent? Is that why you didn’t like theses verses? I've added a few more.
Proverbs 24:11 Deliver those who are being taken away to death, And those who are staggering to slaughter, Oh hold them back. 24:12 If you say, “See, we did not know this,” Does He not consider it who weighs the hearts? And does He not know it who keeps your soul? And will He not render to man according to his work?
Proverbs 31:8 Open your mouth for the mute, For the rights of all the unfortunate. 31:9 Open your mouth, judge righteously, And defend the rights of the afflicted and needy.
Psalms 41:1 How blessed is he who considers the helpless; The LORD will deliver him in a day of trouble. 41:2 The LORD will protect him and keep him alive, And he shall be called blessed upon the earth; And do not give him over to the desire of his enemies. 41:3 The LORD will sustain him upon his sickbed; In his illness, You restore him to health.
Here are a couple from the New Testament:
James 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.
Titus 3:14 Our people must also learn to engage in good deeds to meet pressing needs, so that they will not be unfruitful.
I know you hold the Words of Christ in such high esteem, and one of the most important commands He gives us is to love our neighbor as ourselves. He further explains who our “neighbor” is in the story of the good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37). So let me ask you which person is your neighbor in the scenario we were discussing, the madman trying to kill the child, the child or the sniper?
And how will you show love for your neighbor in this situation? Is it love for your neighbor to allow a child to die when you have it in your power to prevent it? What would the law of the Spirit guide you to do?
Also you forgot to answer my question from my original response so I’ll ask it again:
What would you want the sniper to do if it was your neck with the knife to it?
I’m really looking forward to your answers to these questions. Again, I apologize for the delay in replying.
