.

[sunlover1]

====
at a certain point in my calling, more than I would ever anticipated or felt that I deserved.

Thank God He doesn't give us what we deserve!!!
I remember one time feeling so overwhelmed with His blessings,
I said, "Oh what did I ever do to deserve so much!"
He reminded me that He will bless who he will bless
and He will curse who He will curse, and that it's HIS
goodness, and nothing at all that I have done.
that was YEARS ago, but i remember like it was yesterday!

 

[oldthennew]

Great, but that's quantity. I asked about content.

He told me, us what He required of us as our Holy Saviour,,,our only choice was to comply
with our whole hearts, which He eventually made evident to us that they truly did
belong to Him and to Him only,,,

 

[oldthennew]

Great, but that's quantity. I asked about content.

your definition of quantity is your privilege, my understanding of content is my own.

 

[Don Maurer]

Should we say that reading the Bible is not of God
since so many twist it to make it say what they want.
Moot.

Please do correct those who take the scripture out of context, I do it all the time.... : ). That was not my purpose in posting the video, I wanted to see if anyone who believes in individual direct revelation would rise up and cry out against the heresy of of anyone who claims to hear God. Do those on the other side from me speak out against he strange behavior of those who claim healing, baptism of the Spirit, being drunk in the Spirit.

In my camp, if a Calvinist ever preaches a false teaching, it is other Calvinists who will oppose him the loudest. Among those who hear the voice of God, I look around for those loudly correcting their own, and the voices seem rather dim or even silent when one of your own preaches heresy. I would have thought well of you had you said, Benny Hinn is a heretic and not one of us. Rather than this, you make an attack on the scriptures and point out that people take it out of context.

Just as a test of what I am saying, type the words "oneness pentacostal debate" into Youtube. Here is the first video.

This is from Walter Martin. Down the list I see James White. These are reformed guys. Reformed leaders are frequently at the forefront of debating and opposing heresy. John McArthur does it all the time in his preaching.

On the other hand, I am looking for anyone Charismatic or Pentecostal that is in the forefront of debating and opposing anti-trinitarianism in their own ranks. Can you show me that video?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

your definition of quantity is your privilege, my understanding of content is my own.

I define quantity like everyone else, and I asked you *what* (which is a content question) God said to you, and you give me an evasive reply. I'm not at all surprised that you evade the question, as I expected as much. For some reason that has ben my experience with this subject.

I've ask the same thing of many people who've posted in this thread and elsewhere, with essentially no reply. When pressed, those who claim, "God speaks to me" can not tell me what He said. That would be very odd if God had actually spoken to someone, but not so odd, if He didn't.

 

[TillICollapse]

I define quantity like everyone else, and I asked you *what* (which is a content question) God said to you, and you give me an evasive reply. I'm not at all surprised that you evade the question, as I expected as much. For some reason that has ben my experience with this subject.

I've ask the same thing of many people who've posted in this thread and elsewhere, with essentially no reply. When pressed, those who claim, "God speaks to me" can not tell me what He said. That would be very odd if God had actually spoken to someone, but not so odd, if He didn't.

Still lurking.

I gave you a detailed account of what I "heard" in one instance that one may conclude was God speaking, so I was one who told you what He said ... if that was in fact, God. Would you like another ? I am thinking of an example where I said to another person, something I believed (at the time) was given to me by the Holy Spirit to say to them. Something very specific, and odd ... and seemingly the result of those words were immediate and even shocked me. It's an interesting example, not a "mundane" one. Wanna hear it ? If not, I will save the typing.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Still lurking.

I gave you a detailed account of what I "heard" in one instance that one may conclude was God speaking, so I was one who told you what He said ... if that was in fact, God. Would you like another ? I am thinking of an example where I said to another person, something I believed (at the time) was given to me by the Holy Spirit to say to them. Something very specific, and odd ... and seemingly the result of those words were immediate and even shocked me. It's an interesting example, not a "mundane" one. Wanna hear it ? If not, I will save the typing.

Yes you did, but you also, did not admit to being a Christian, or left it as a riddle, so what do I make of your story, and how would I fit that into a Christian discussion?

 

[sunlover1]

Do those on the other side from me speak out against he strange behavior of those who claim healing, baptism of the Spirit, being drunk in the Spirit.

People who display strange behavior should be avoided.
No offense, but I didn't watch the video.
However, I am certain that some things that you think strange,
I may not, and vise versa ... But crazy stuff, no thank you!
But I do claim healing, Baptism of the Spirit etc.
I didn't believe in a seperate baptism though!
Was certain I had it, I loved God, read the Bible went
to Bible study even!
It wasn't until I received the baptism that I realized that
I had been missing it.
Big time.
*shrugs.
No, I don't care to search for Baptism of the Spirit passages.
Another time, another thread.

In my camp, if a Calvinist ever preaches a false teaching, it is other Calvinists who will oppose him the loudest. Among those who hear the voice of God, I look around for those loudly correcting their own, and the voices seem rather dim or even silent when one of your own preaches heresy. I would have thought well of you had you said, Benny Hinn is a heretic and not one of us. Rather than this, you make an attack on the scriptures and point out that people take it out of context.

Evidently you Calvinists are much holier than I am.
And pointing out that folks take Scripture out of context was NOT
an attack on Scriptures.
That's kind of dishonest, unless it was accidental.

Just as a test of what I am saying, type the words "oneness pentacostal debate" into Youtube. Here is the first video.

This is from Walter Martin. Down the list I see James White. These are reformed guys. Reformed leaders are frequently at the forefront of debating and opposing heresy. John McArthur does it all the time in his preaching.

?? I have no connection with oneness pentacostals or with James white.
Sorry. I haven't seen this video and don't know these men.
Except for John Mac, who I used to love to listen to.

On the other hand, I am looking for anyone Charismatic or Pentecostal that is in the forefront of debating and opposing anti-trinitarianism in their own ranks. Can you show me that video?

I have no idea who you're talking about and it's none of my business.
Ours is a ministry of reconciliation, not condemnation.
If that's your ministry then have at it, but I don't know these men.

 

[TillICollapse]

Yes you did, but you also, did not admit to being a Christian, or left it as a riddle, so what do I make of your story, and how would I fit that into a Christian discussion?

Well, you could use critical thinking I suppose. If you think I'm being genuine in the telling of my account (IOW, you don't think I'm simply making stuff up and fabricating tales), and you take what I said at face value, then you examine what I said and draw your own conclusions based on what I presented and you use your critical thinking to do so.

When you are attempting to cross a street, and a car is coming at you in the lane you're standing in, I'm assuming you use critical thinking and you move to get out of the way. You don't first attempt to ask the driver what their thoughts are on religions, politics, music likes, etc. You get out of the way of the moving vehicle. If you go to the store, and you are wanting to buy an orange, and you ask around where the oranges are ... you could probably ask just about anybody where they are, employee or not. Their other thoughts on life issues are secondary. You use critical thinking and investigative skills to find the oranges. In this thread, I gave you an example of an experience where I thought I was perhaps "hearing the voice of God". It was on topic as far as I could tell.

The topic of your thread is on prayer and hearing the voice of God, etc. I already gave the reasons I don't label myself, I let others draw their own conclusions. It's no riddle. I offered earlier to stop participating in your thread if you wanted me to, but you didn't respond. Would you like me to no longer post ?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Well, you could use critical thinking I suppose. If you think I'm being genuine in the telling of my account (IOW, you don't think I'm simply making stuff up and fabricating tales), and you take what I said at face value, then you examine what I said and draw your own conclusions based on what I presented and you use your critical thinking to do so.

When you are attempting to cross a street, and a car is coming at you in the lane you're standing in, I'm assuming you use critical thinking and you move to get out of the way. You don't first attempt to ask the driver what their thoughts are on religions, politics, music likes, etc. You get out of the way of the moving vehicle. If you go to the store, and you are wanting to buy an orange, and you ask around where the oranges are ... you could probably ask just about anybody where they are, employee or not. Their other thoughts on life issues are secondary. You use critical thinking and investigative skills to find the oranges. In this thread, I gave you an example of an experience where I thought I was perhaps "hearing the voice of God". It was on topic as far as I could tell.

The topic of your thread is on prayer and hearing the voice of God, etc. I already gave the reasons I don't label myself, I let others draw their own conclusions. It's no riddle. I offered earlier to stop participating in your thread if you wanted me to, but you didn't respond. Would you like me to no longer post ?

Just three things. First, I don't wish to draw conclusions about your faith. That's your job to declare. Not mine to guess.

Second "God" is vague. There are many gods, so I still can't, by your story alone, conclude that you know Christ, and again, I don't want to guess.

Lastly, as far as posting here, that is not my call either. This sub-forum is open to all Christians, and that has been defined by CF. If you can not agree to the terms that CF has set, then you shouldn't post here, but again, that's for you, not me, to decide.

You seem very reasonable and rational, which is a welcome change from some of the craziness here at times, so I hope that you can both sincerely and proudly claim Christ as your Lord and Savior, and agree to the terms here so that you will continue to post here and elsewhere. If not, I wish you well.

 

[Peter J Barban]

I'm afraid I would disagree about this being casual. As I said in an earlier post, there is not one example of God speaking to anyone other than major figures and/or for major reasons. This is no exception.

Paul wrote 1/2 of the New Testament scriptures! This was a big deal in the history of redemption. This was not God "chewing the fat" with Ananias.

Look at the way people in this thread claim they have heard God speak, and compare it to this instance. There simply is no comparison.

thatbrian, you are way too dogmatic and do not know the scriptures as well as you should. Your claim that "there is not one example of God speaking to anyone other than major figures and/or for major reasons. This is no exception."
is incorrect.

The proof comes from Acts 21:8-9; "8 Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied."

This is Bible proof that God's speaks to non-major people about non-major things, since Luke did not think it important to tell us the names of these Christian prophets, nor their significant actions or messages.

In fact, your whole argument is unfair, since, by design, the Bible naturally focuses on major events and people that God wants everyone to know about.

We would not expect the Bible to include every message of God to every believer. Thus, your basic argument is absurd.

The only good argument you have is that the Bible does not say we should hear the voice of God in our heads. On the other hand, the Bible does not say the opposite either. It never says that we should not hear from God this way. So, biblically, both are weak arguments based on the silence of the Bible.

 

[sunlover1]

Thank you @Peter J Barban
I wanted to say those same things
Because that's exactly what's been going on
It makes no sense why someone would come here
to fight so hard against truth.
We come to SEEK truth ..
THen again, I guess the Bible explains these
things as well. Spirit of error sometimes is
in the mix.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

thatbrian, you are way too dogmatic and do not know the scriptures as well as you should. Your claim that "there is not one example of God speaking to anyone other than major figures and/or for major reasons. This is no exception."
is incorrect.

The proof comes from Acts 21:8-9; "8 Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven. 9 He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied."

This is Bible proof that God's speaks to non-major people about non-major things, since Luke did not think it important to tell us the names of these Christian prophets, nor their significant actions or messages.

In fact, your whole argument is unfair, since, by design, the Bible naturally focuses on major events and people that God wants everyone to know about.

We would not expect the Bible to include every message of God to every believer. Thus, your basic argument is absurd.

The only good argument you have is that the Bible does not say we should hear the voice of God in our heads. On the other hand, the Bible does not say the opposite either. It never says that we should not hear from God this way. So, biblically, both are weak arguments based on the silence of the Bible.

We have not agreed on what prophesy is or if it still exists today. Again, I don't wish to derail this thread.

 

[TillICollapse]

Just three things. First, I don't wish to draw conclusions about your faith. That's your job to declare. Not mine to guess.

Not to sound picky, but to me, it is often more important that I see someone demonstrate their faith, rather than merely give words. Which is why I tend to value anecdotes somewhat. I tend to have the same view of myself: words are cheap, choices are more valuable to me. They are more practical. So declaring my faith, to me, is more a matter of practicality and action.

Second "God" is vague. There are many gods, so I still can't, by your story alone, conclude that you know Christ, and again, I don't want to guess.

Indeed ... "God" is vague. Exactly ... which is somewhat of a point I made earlier (probably in a post you didn't respond too, so you may not know what I'm referencing). The point being more of a question really: how do we make a positive ID of "God" ? Because the word itself, is so diluted and vague at this point in history. What one person points at and says "God !" about, another will point at and say, "Nope".

We can positively ID all manner of animals. We could positively ID celebrities, well known individuals. We can do this collectively, by a variety of methods. Objects, stuff, things, places. I could show you the Great Pyramid, and you could tell me where it's at. Yet, people cannot agree on and positively ID "God", even though so many claim to know so many things about Him, what He wants, whom He talks to, what He says, etc.

Why not ? Arguably, this is the foundational crux of the thread: because the moment someone claims "God spoke to me" or "God doesn't speak to anyone" for that matter ... the obvious question is, how do you know ? How do you know God spoke to you ? How did you determine that positive identification ? Or the converse ... how do you know God didn't speak to someone and doesn't ? How did you determine that as an attribute of God when you've never met Him, nor spoken with Him ? And on and on it goes ...

Lastly, as far as posting here, that is not my call either. This sub-forum is open to all Christians, and that has been defined by CF. If you can not agree to the terms that CF has set, then you shouldn't post here, but again, that's for you, not me, to decide.

You seem very reasonable and rational, which is a welcome change from some of the craziness here at times, so I hope that you can both sincerely and proudly claim Christ as your Lord and Savior, and agree to the terms here so that you will continue to post here and elsewhere. If not, I wish you well.

Thank you for saying that, I really appreciate those kind words. Really

As far as sincerely and proudly claiming Christ as my Lord and Savior ... I will go above and beyond that. I was not raised in a religious home, as I stated previously I believe. And throughout my life, I have had very little respect for males ... it's nothing personal, I just, have very little respect for males. Almost in a ... neutral sense. As though the average male is irrelevant. It sounds harsh, and I don't mean it to sound that way ... I just haven't met very many men, either as a child, nor adult, that I found to be inspirational, or ... dynamic enough to actually effect my world.

The person of Jesus ... had always drawn me. Like a moth to a flame. There was something heroic about Jesus to me, what I read, what I heard. I've lived all over the world, been my own person/man/etc, been in all manner of situations ... and yet still, the person of Jesus, shined to me like no other. He was the only "man" I respected, based on what I knew of Him. I wanted to understand Jesus, to see what He saw, to look at someone the way He might have looked at them, to feel what He might have felt for a moment, even in His pain.

One of the interesting things I've been grateful for in my life, is my lack of religious unbringing in my childhood, and my parent's openness in letting me freely ask questions about this, or that, concerning God/supernatural/mysteries/etc. Because it allowed me to skip out on some of the biases that others may have had. For example, it never occurred to me, that I couldn't meet Jesus. He rose from the dead after all ... so, I wanted to *physically* meet him. The first time a believer told me it wasn't possible, I was dumbfounded. He was a real person, who rose from the dead, then I should be able to meet Him. Yes ? And the same was for God as well ... I wanted to meet God. KNOW God. Not just know about. I wanted to go to Heaven, see it with my own eyes, etc and so forth. I wanted a tour. The idea a person had to die in order to go there first ... why ? I can hop on a plane to Italy, why can't God take me to Heaven and show me, if they are all real ? I wanted to put my hands in Jesus' sides ... not because I doubted, but BECAUSE I was drawn and believed it was possible. And ... I have even more stories, beyond the topic of this thread lol I'll say that much

Having said all that I just said ... over the years, I've had enough experiences, that I do believe in Christ, the person of Christ, and that Jesus is Lord and the Savior. I believe He has demonstrated to me, in a tip of the iceberg manner, which continually leaves me wanting more: more experience, more insight, more of going down the rabbit hole, in real time. And, I take what is true or not true about Him, etc ... seriously. To me, it's not an academic endeavor. I like evidence. Practical, here and now evidence. And I value letting things "speak for themselves". Where the typical person may say, "That's not possible ..." ... experience has taught me, they are typically wrong in some fashion.

So hopefully that was some more insight into the issue you raise, and again, thanks for your kind words :~)

 

[Peter J Barban]

Since prophecy requires hearing from God, it is no derailment of the topic about how people hear the voice of God.

Prophecy is merely inconvenient for your purpose. Just like the scriptures that I have posted showing your errors and my personal testimony which is in concord with the scriptures. You have chosen to ignore things that you cannot refute and make incorrect claims that you cannot defend.

That fact that you choose not to address specific answers to your questions shows the basic weakness of your position.

I have some sympathy for your position as I come from a similar background.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Not to sound picky, but to me, it is often more important that I see someone demonstrate their faith, rather than merely give words. Which is why I tend to value anecdotes somewhat. I tend to have the same view of myself: words are cheap, choices are more valuable to me. They are more practical. So declaring my faith, to me, is more a matter of practicality and action.

Indeed ... "God" is vague. Exactly ... which is somewhat of a point I made earlier (probably in a post you didn't respond too, so you may not know what I'm referencing). The point being more of a question really: how do we make a positive ID of "God" ? Because the word itself, is so diluted and vague at this point in history. What one person points at and says "God !" about, another will point at and say, "Nope".

We can positively ID all manner of animals. We could positively ID celebrities, well known individuals. We can do this collectively, by a variety of methods. Objects, stuff, things, places. I could show you the Great Pyramid, and you could tell me where it's at. Yet, people cannot agree on and positively ID "God", even though so many claim to know so many things about Him, what He wants, whom He talks to, what He says, etc.

Why not ? Arguably, this is the foundational crux of the thread: because the moment someone claims "God spoke to me" or "God doesn't speak to anyone" for that matter ... the obvious question is, how do you know ? How do you know God spoke to you ? How did you determine that positive identification ? Or the converse ... how do you know God didn't speak to someone and doesn't ? How did you determine that as an attribute of God when you've never met Him, nor spoken with Him ? And on and on it goes ...

Thank you for saying that, I really appreciate those kind words. Really

As far as sincerely and proudly claiming Christ as my Lord and Savior ... I will go above and beyond that. I was not raised in a religious home, as I stated previously I believe. And throughout my life, I have had very little respect for males ... it's nothing personal, I just, have very little respect for males. Almost in a ... neutral sense. As though the average male is irrelevant. It sounds harsh, and I don't mean it to sound that way ... I just haven't met very many men, either as a child, nor adult, that I found to be inspirational, or ... dynamic enough to actually effect my world.

The person of Jesus ... had always drawn me. Like a moth to a flame. There was something heroic about Jesus to me, what I read, what I heard. I've lived all over the world, been my own person/man/etc, been in all manner of situations ... and yet still, the person of Jesus, shined to me like no other. He was the only "man" I respected, based on what I knew of Him. I wanted to understand Jesus, to see what He saw, to look at someone the way He might have looked at them, to feel what He might have felt for a moment, even in His pain.

One of the interesting things I've been grateful for in my life, is my lack of religious unbringing in my childhood, and my parent's openness in letting me freely ask questions about this, or that, concerning God/supernatural/mysteries/etc. Because it allowed me to skip out on some of the biases that others may have had. For example, it never occurred to me, that I couldn't meet Jesus. He rose from the dead after all ... so, I wanted to *physically* meet him. The first time a believer told me it wasn't possible, I was dumbfounded. He was a real person, who rose from the dead, then I should be able to meet Him. Yes ? And the same was for God as well ... I wanted to meet God. KNOW God. Not just know about. I wanted to go to Heaven, see it with my own eyes, etc and so forth. I wanted a tour. The idea a person had to die in order to go there first ... why ? I can hop on a plane to Italy, why can't God take me to Heaven and show me, if they are all real ? I wanted to put my hands in Jesus' sides ... not because I doubted, but BECAUSE I was drawn and believed it was possible. And ... I have even more stories, beyond the topic of this thread lol I'll say that much

Having said all that I just said ... over the years, I've had enough experiences, that I do believe in Christ, the person of Christ, and that Jesus is Lord and the Savior. I believe He has demonstrated to me, in a tip of the iceberg manner, which continually leaves me wanting more: more experience, more insight, more of going down the rabbit hole, in real time. And, I take what is true or not true about Him, etc ... seriously. To me, it's not an academic endeavor. I like evidence. Practical, here and now evidence. And I value letting things "speak for themselves". Where the typical person may say, "That's not possible ..." ... experience has taught me, they are typically wrong in some fashion.

So hopefully that was some more insight into the issue you raise, and again, thanks for your kind words :~)

I'll reply later/tomorrow.

For now, this was on my mind as part of a reply, and it's a much better read than anything I could produce, so I hope that you can take away something from it. You seem of above average intelligence, so I think you will.

Dorothy Sayers: Theology Is Thrilling (The Dogma Is the Drama!)
Dorothy L. Sayers (1893-1957) was a well-known British author, playwright, and scholar. Graduating from Oxford University in 1915, she was among one of the first groups of women to achieve this distinction. Sayers had a knack for unmasking misperceptions of the faith. In her day, efforts to redefine Christian practice and teachings were fueled by an apparent boredom with presentation of doctrine. In her Letters to a Diminished Church: Passionate Arguments for the Relevance of Christian Doctrine, she countered this mentality, critiquing the appalling apathy and biblical ignorance of those who called themselves “Christian.” Sadly, though, times have not much changed and her words are as pointed as ever.

Official Christianity, of late years, has been having what is known as a bad press. We are constantly assured that the churches are empty because preachers insist too much upon doctrine—dull dogma as people call it. The fact is the precise opposite. It is the neglect of dogma that makes for dullness. The Christian faith is the most exciting drama that ever staggered the imagination of man—and the dogma is the drama.

Now, we may call [Christian] doctrine exhilarating, or we may call it devastating; we may call it revelation, or we may call it rubbish; but if we call it dull, the words have no meaning at all. That God should play the tyranny over man is a dismal story of unrelieved oppression; that man should play the tyrant over man is the usual dreary record of human futility; but that man should play the tyrant over God and find Him a better Man that himself is an astonishing drama indeed. Any journalist, hearing of it for the first time, would recognize it as news; those who did hear it for the first time actually called it news, and good news at that; though we are likely to forget that the word Gospel ever meant anything so sensational.

. . . . for the cry today is: “Away with the tedious complexities of dogma—let us have the simple spirit of worship; just worship, no matter of what!” The only drawback to this demand for a generalized and undirected worship is the practical difficulty of arousing any sort of enthusiasm for the worship of nothing in particular.

It would not perhaps be altogether surprising if, in this nominally Christian country [Britain], where the creeds are daily recited, that there were a number of people who knew all about Christian doctrine and disliked it. It is more startling to discover how many people there are who heartily dislike and despise Christianity without having the faintest notion of what it is. If you tell them, they cannot believe you. I do not mean that they cannot believe the doctrine; that would be understandable enough since it takes some believing. I mean that they simply cannot believe that anything so interesting, so exciting, and so dramatic can be the orthodox creed of the Church.

Surely it is not the business of the Church to adapt Christ to men, but to adapt men to Christ.

It is the dogma that is the drama—not beautiful phrases, nor comforting sentiments, nor vague aspirations to loving-kindness and uplift, nor the promise of something nice after death—but the terrifying assertion that the same God who made the world, lived in the world and passed through the grave and gate of death. Show that to the heathen, and they may not believe it; but at least they may realize that here is something that man might be glad to believe.

 

[TillICollapse]

I'll reply later/tomorrow.

For now, this was on my mind as part of a reply, and it's a much better read than anything I could produce, so I hope that you can take away something from it. You seem of above average intelligence, so I think you will.

Dorothy Sayers: Theology Is Thrilling (The Dogma Is the Drama!)
Dorothy L. Sayers (1893-1957) was a well-known British author, playwright, and scholar. Graduating from Oxford University in 1915, she was among one of the first groups of women to achieve this distinction. Sayers had a knack for unmasking misperceptions of the faith. In her day, efforts to redefine Christian practice and teachings were fueled by an apparent boredom with presentation of doctrine. In her Letters to a Diminished Church: Passionate Arguments for the Relevance of Christian Doctrine, she countered this mentality, critiquing the appalling apathy and biblical ignorance of those who called themselves “Christian.” Sadly, though, times have not much changed and her words are as pointed as ever.

Official Christianity, of late years, has been having what is known as a bad press. We are constantly assured that the churches are empty because preachers insist too much upon doctrine—dull dogma as people call it. The fact is the precise opposite. It is the neglect of dogma that makes for dullness. The Christian faith is the most exciting drama that ever staggered the imagination of man—and the dogma is the drama.

Now, we may call [Christian] doctrine exhilarating, or we may call it devastating; we may call it revelation, or we may call it rubbish; but if we call it dull, the words have no meaning at all. That God should play the tyranny over man is a dismal story of unrelieved oppression; that man should play the tyrant over man is the usual dreary record of human futility; but that man should play the tyrant over God and find Him a better Man that himself is an astonishing drama indeed. Any journalist, hearing of it for the first time, would recognize it as news; those who did hear it for the first time actually called it news, and good news at that; though we are likely to forget that the word Gospel ever meant anything so sensational.

. . . . for the cry today is: “Away with the tedious complexities of dogma—let us have the simple spirit of worship; just worship, no matter of what!” The only drawback to this demand for a generalized and undirected worship is the practical difficulty of arousing any sort of enthusiasm for the worship of nothing in particular.

It would not perhaps be altogether surprising if, in this nominally Christian country [Britain], where the creeds are daily recited, that there were a number of people who knew all about Christian doctrine and disliked it. It is more startling to discover how many people there are who heartily dislike and despise Christianity without having the faintest notion of what it is. If you tell them, they cannot believe you. I do not mean that they cannot believe the doctrine; that would be understandable enough since it takes some believing. I mean that they simply cannot believe that anything so interesting, so exciting, and so dramatic can be the orthodox creed of the Church.

Surely it is not the business of the Church to adapt Christ to men, but to adapt men to Christ.

It is the dogma that is the drama—not beautiful phrases, nor comforting sentiments, nor vague aspirations to loving-kindness and uplift, nor the promise of something nice after death—but the terrifying assertion that the same God who made the world, lived in the world and passed through the grave and gate of death. Show that to the heathen, and they may not believe it; but at least they may realize that here is something that man might be glad to believe.

Hmmmm ..... what stood out to me, out of all of that, was this:

"but that man should play the tyrant over God and find Him a better Man that himself is an astonishing drama indeed."

That, is beautiful It concisely points out a beautiful aspect to the nature of existence itself. Thank you for that

 

[Arsenios]

You give me an evasive reply.
I'm not at all surprised that you evade the question,
as I expected as much.

Arrogance and cynicism love one another...

Those who claim, "God speaks to me" can not tell me what He said.

Well, let's try a little experiment:

I was reading the Gospel of John as a non-Christian, and God came to me over my left shoulder and said:
"You know, the same Spirit that brought you out of darkness caused this Book to be written." And I off-handedly replied: "Well that's crap." and turned back to translating and immediately said: "Wait a minute! That was God! And I turned back and said to Him dismissively: "That would mean that I am a Christian," and I waved Him off, the matter firmly settled and turned back to translating John... And He said: "Hmmmmmmm...." And I jumped back around and said: "Oh NO! I'm a Christian???" and hastened to add: "I don't even LIKE Christians!" And He said: "Don't attack them." [I had never been kind to Christians.] So I said: "Lord! Who will minister unto their ministers? These guys are SERIOUSLY messed up!" And He said: "Don't attack them."

That was when I "became" a Christian, or first began to discover it... And I was scandalized! I had known God for 14 years, and I flat out KNEW that He was not the Christian God, without any doubts whatsoever...

And I was wrong...

So there is your answer to your cynical question: "What did God say to you?"

So the ball is in your court, my friend...

You have been answered...

One small instance...

Your turn now...

What'cha got?


Arsenios

 

[Peter J Barban]

I want to share a two-way conversation that I had with God in prayer.

Years ago, my wife and I were considering buying an apartment. After visiting one apartment, I went out to pray, seeking God's will.

While in prayer, I became concerned about the possibility that that God would say "yes, buy it" when he actually did not want me to buy the place.

I directly asked God, "You wouldn't betray me, would you?"

Immediately, God answered, "Like all those times you betrayed me?"

I thought back to a time when I failed to keep my promise to God and retorted, "Well, I thought you were better than that?"

God's final word was, "Well, I am."

These are direct quotes of the entire conversation that went on in my mind. I found the conversation, gentle in tone, both humbling and comforting.

This conversation made the word of God more sure, that "God is not a man that he should lie or a son of man that he should change his mind".

I don't believe that we must hear from God on every major decision, often God-given wisdom will suffice. But I will always prefer to hear the voice of the Lord before making commitments.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm not at all surprised that you evade the question, as I expected as much. For some reason that has ben my experience with this subject.

Arrogance and cynicism love one another...

You should have included the entire thought rather than just the portion that you did.

As for the rest of your story, I am not clear as to what you said or are asking me.