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Is Church Optional for a Christian?

  • Of course! Church is for legalists!

    Votes: 5 7.8%
  • Of course not! There isn't a single case of such thing in the New Testament.

    Votes: 12 18.8%
  • In certain cases it's OK.

    Votes: 18 28.1%
  • Why wouldn't a Christian what to be a member of a church?!

    Votes: 22 34.4%
  • Yes. Churches are corrupt

    Votes: 11 17.2%
  • No. Imperfect, yes, but we are commanded to join with our fellow Christians

    Votes: 28 43.8%

  • Total voters
    64

ViaCrucis

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Acts 2:46 And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

They went house to house. They were in the "temple" Jewish temple witnessing the gospel and preaching the gospel.

Paul was preaching and they guy fell out of the window. Out of the window of a house.

Cornelius was at his house.

Saul before he became Paul found the Christians, where, in houses? So basically the ekklesia is anywhere the body of Christ gathers. It is not an institution, or a brick and mortar building that is the church.

And yet they gathered together and the Church is instituted by Christ, organized by Him under Him and constituted by the Means He has given.

Denying the reality that the Church is organized, an institution, is to deny the plain meaning of Scripture.

The Church is not merely Christians around one another, it is Christians together in Christ's name with the visible elements of the Church--the Word of God and His Sacraments.

Without the latter it can be many things--a Bible study, a picnic, Christian hang out hour, but it is only Church when the express purpose is and visible elements of the Church are present.

There may arise occasion, due to extraneous circumstances, where such things are not possible; but we are not limiting the Church by the normative means but merely stating what is normative for the Church as the Church.

Not liking what the Church, biblically and historically, is is not a justification for doing away with it and doing it your own way.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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2Timothy2:15

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And yet they gathered together and the Church is instituted by Christ, organized by Him under Him and constituted by the Means He has given.

Denying the reality that the Church is organized, an institution, is to deny the plain meaning of Scripture.

"And yet they gathered together and the Church is instituted by Christ, organized by Him under Him and constituted by the Means He has given.

Denying the reality that the Church is organized, an institution, is to deny the plain meaning of Scripture."

Provide scripture that shows the church is an institution to be in buildings ran by men? Do you not understand the old temple system and priestly office of the OT was done away with at the cross? Where is the temple now?
 
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ViaCrucis

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That is great, sounds suspiciously like Catholic dogma....I think the original question is does the Christian have to attend church. Thus we were defining what the "church" is. You are kind of providing scripture out of context to the question. It seems you are applying salvation, baptism, and why apostolic authority...?

I addressed the historic etymological meaning of ekklesia, and how Christ's ekklesia is understood biblically.

If it "sounds suspiciously like Catholic dogma" it's only because it looks more like the way Christianity has looked over the last two thousand years in contrast to your personal opinions which differ on the matter--and to that end Roman Catholic ecclesiology is simply more biblical and historical than modern DIY Christianity. What I described isn't so much "Catholic dogma" as it conforms with the biblical, historical, and universal understanding of the historic Christian Church--Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, et al.

Why apostolic authority? Because it's biblical. Christ sent His apostles, the apostles founded the churches and put pastors in place to shepherd and guide the churches, and those pastors stand, historically, in the seat of the apostles. The office of the keys did not vanish with the death of St. John, but are the common property of the Christian Church exercised by the pastoral office for the sake of the good order of the whole Church. Because the Church stands or falls on the Apostolic Confession, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God".

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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"And yet they gathered together and the Church is instituted by Christ, organized by Him under Him and constituted by the Means He has given.

Denying the reality that the Church is organized, an institution, is to deny the plain meaning of Scripture."

Provide scripture that shows the church is an institution to be in buildings ran by men? Do you not understand the old temple system and priestly office of the OT was done away with at the cross? Where is the temple now?

You're the one talking about buildings. I'm not.

I'm talking about the Church instituted by Christ who says, "Upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Christ builds it, Christ institutes it.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Extraneous

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You're the one talking about buildings. I'm not.

I'm talking about the Church instituted by Christ who says, "Upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Christ builds it, Christ institutes it.

-CryptoLutheran

You are talking denominations however. Christ isnt limited to such small imagination. It seems contentious to sit here and argue over Church, instead of just being the Church. It reminds me of the carnal Corinthians, with all their debate. Why not just preach the word instead?


Hebrews 12:2 looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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You're the one talking about buildings. I'm not.

I'm talking about the Church instituted by Christ who says, "Upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Christ builds it, Christ institutes it.

-CryptoLutheran

Your posts are all well thought out, and very patient, so I commend you on both counts.

It's not that the anti-church crowd lacks information. It's that they have an agenda, so they ignore the information. The issue is that they don't like church; won't submit to authority; know everything already. . . therefore, church, as the rest of Christendom for the past 2,000 years has known it, is now unimportant, and even unbiblical in their eyes.
 
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Extraneous

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Your posts are all well thought out, and very patient, so I commend you on both counts.

It's not that the anti-church crowd lacks information. It's that they have an agenda, so they ignore the information. The issue is that they don't like church; won't submit to authority; know everything already. . . therefore, church, as the rest of Christendom for the past 2,000 years has known it, is now unimportant, and even unbiblical in their eyes.


Lets get the facts straight. You are the one with the agenda here. You are the one that keeps starting these threads about people who dont go to Church. Its you who are overly obsessed with this issue, and not the people who dont attend Church. Where are all the threads obsessing over Church attendance? I see only your threads obsessing over it. You commend yourselves and it has the effect of tearing others down. Thats not Church.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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I addressed the historic etymological meaning of ekklesia, and how Christ's ekklesia is understood biblically.

If it "sounds suspiciously like Catholic dogma" it's only because it looks more like the way Christianity has looked over the last two thousand years in contrast to your personal opinions which differ on the matter--and to that end Roman Catholic ecclesiology is simply more biblical and historical than modern DIY Christianity. What I described isn't so much "Catholic dogma" as it conforms with the biblical, historical, and universal understanding of the historic Christian Church--Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, et al.

Why apostolic authority? Because it's biblical. Christ sent His apostles, the apostles founded the churches and put pastors in place to shepherd and guide the churches, and those pastors stand, historically, in the seat of the apostles. The office of the keys did not vanish with the death of St. John, but are the common property of the Christian Church exercised by the pastoral office for the sake of the good order of the whole Church. Because the Church stands or falls on the Apostolic Confession, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God".

-CryptoLutheran

As I suspected, you are a Catholic pretending to be Lutheran...
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Your posts are all well thought out, and very patient, so I commend you on both counts.

It's not that the anti-church crowd lacks information. It's that they have an agenda, so they ignore the information. The issue is that they don't like church; won't submit to authority; know everything already. . . therefore, church, as the rest of Christendom for the past 2,000 years has known it, is now unimportant, and even unbiblical in their eyes.


"won't submit to authority"

Ah and now we have the old authoritarian junk from the Shepherding movement.....the only authority is God and his word. I bet you like to misquote Hebrews 13 all the time eh.

Hebrews 13 7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

See obey the word of GOD...not the man's authority it is the word of GOD and the author of the word which has authority.
 
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Extraneous

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"won't submit to authority"

Ah and now we have the old authoritarian junk from the Shepherding movement.....the only authority is God and his word. I bet you like to misquote Hebrews 13 all the time eh.

Hebrews 13 7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation.

See obey the word of GOD...not the man's authority it is the word of GOD and the author of the word which has authority.


Lets not fret over them, its just not worth it. The whole thread is one big attempt to goad others.
 
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Rick Otto

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Lets get the facts straight. You are the one with the agenda here. You are the one that keeps starting these threads about people who dont go to Church. Its you who are overly obsessed with this issue, and not the people who dont attend Church. Where are all the threads obsessing over Church attendance? I see only your threads obsessing over it. You commend yourselves and it has the effect of tearing others down. Thats not Church.
It's true.
First, there is the deliberate misrepresentation he used, "anti_church" to demonize us and manufacture moral high ground based on a false piety.

These "churches" typically quickly pass from the initial impulse to serve, to the agenda of survival.
One of the worst things they do here in America, is trade in their constitutional freedom for 501C3 "privileges".
The smarmy back patting around it made me throw up.
 
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Extraneous

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It's true.
First, there is the deliberate misrepresentation he used, "anti_church" to demonize us and manufacture moral high ground based on a false piety.

These "churches" typically quickly pass from the initial impulse to serve, to the agenda of survival.
One of the worst things they do here in America, is trade in their constitutional freedom for 501C3 "privileges".
The smarmy back patting around it made me throw up.

Yes, i agree. Its seems more profitable to build others up in the word rather than to tear them down over Church attendance. After all, the very reason Paul exhorts us to assemble together is so we can exhort each other to follow the Word. It seems like time would be better spent preaching the word instead of preaching a Church. Paul said that He and the other apostles dont preach themselves but Christ.

He says to let the Word dwell in us richly, not a denomination.
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Why do you think it is that all of the churches in the NT have names? I don't see where "Church" a person's identity. Do you see the church of "us" described anywhere in the pages of scripture?


Local churches mentioned in the Bible:

  1. Antioch, Pisidia: Acts 13:14; Gal 1:2
    • Antioch, Syria: Acts 11:26 (Paul's home base)
    • Athens: Acts 17:34
    • Babylon: 1 Peter 5:13; Acts 2:9
    • Berea: Acts 17:11
    • Caesarea: Acts 10:1,48
    • Cenchrea: Rom 16:1
    • Colossae: Col 1:2
    • Corinth: Acts 18:1
    • Crete: Titus 1:5
    • Cyrene: Acts 11:20
    • Damascus: Acts 9:19
    • Derbe: Acts 14:20; Gal 1:2
    • Ephesus: Acts 18:19
    • Hierapolis Col 4:13
    • Iconium: Acts 14:1; Gal 1:2
    • Jerusalem: Acts 2:5
    • Joppa: Acts 9:36, 38
    • Laodicea: Rev 1:11, Col 4:15
    • Lydda: Acts 9:32
    • Lystra: Acts 14:6; Gal 1:2
    • Pergamum: Rev 1:11
    • Philadelphia: Rev 1:11
    • Philippi: Acts 16:12
    • Puteoli, Italy: Acts 28:13-14
    • Rome: Rom 1:7
    • Sardis: Rev 1:11
    • Sharon: Acts 9:35
    • Smyrna: Rev 1:11
    • Tarsus: Acts 9:30
    • Thessalonica: Acts 17:1
    • Thyatira: Rev 1:11; Acts 16:14
    • Troas: Acts 20:6-7
Regions of churches:

  1. Region of Phoencia: Acts 11:19
  2. Region of Samaria: Acts 8:14, 25
  3. Churches of Judea: Gal 1:22
  4. Churches of Galatia: Gal 1:2
  5. Churches of Asia: 1 Cor 16:19
  6. Churches of Macedonia: 2 Cor 8:1


You notice a pattern here??? Those are ALL cities, those are addressing all believers in a city, not in building or even a particular leader in most cases...Those are not people who gather in the building at Troas....furthermore, Christians were heavily persecuted and killed so you think they were gathering openly in some public building? You speak of a totally carnal man made perspective that is either one, something you subscribe to because you get a paycheck from the church, or two you are simply totally indoctrinated.
 
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ViaCrucis

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As I suspected, you are a Catholic pretending to be Lutheran...

Do you have a better response other than a baseless and false accusation?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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2Timothy2:15

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I addressed the historic etymological meaning of ekklesia, and how Christ's ekklesia is understood biblically.

If it "sounds suspiciously like Catholic dogma" it's only because it looks more like the way Christianity has looked over the last two thousand years in contrast to your personal opinions which differ on the matter--and to that end Roman Catholic ecclesiology is simply more biblical and historical than modern DIY Christianity. What I described isn't so much "Catholic dogma" as it conforms with the biblical, historical, and universal understanding of the historic Christian Church--Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, et al.

Why apostolic authority? Because it's biblical. Christ sent His apostles, the apostles founded the churches and put pastors in place to shepherd and guide the churches, and those pastors stand, historically, in the seat of the apostles. The office of the keys did not vanish with the death of St. John, but are the common property of the Christian Church exercised by the pastoral office for the sake of the good order of the whole Church. Because the Church stands or falls on the Apostolic Confession, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God".

-CryptoLutheran


"If it "sounds suspiciously like Catholic dogma" it's only because it looks more like the way Christianity has looked over the last two thousand years in contrast to your personal opinions which differ on the matter--and to that end Roman Catholic ecclesiology is simply more biblical and historical than modern DIY Christianity."

Really Roman Catholic is more biblical says the Lutheran? Hmmmm...something does not add up. You do know that the RCC was formed in 330 AD under Constantine?
 
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2Timothy2:15

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Do you have a better response other than a baseless and false accusation?

-CryptoLutheran
1. Source of Authority. With respect to the Bible, Catholics accept the apocryphal books in addition to the 66 books of the Protestant Bible. They also accept tradition and the teaching of the Catholic Church as authoritative and at least equal to that of the Bible (cf. Mk. 7:8,9,13; Matt. 15:3,6,9; Col. 2:8). With respect to papal infallibility, Catholics believe that ecumenical councils of bishops and the pope are immune from error when speaking ex cathedra about faith and morals (i.e., "from the chair" -- by sole virtue of position or the exercise of an office). (And by "infallible," Catholics mean much more than merely a simple, de facto absence of error -- it is positive perfection, ruling out the possibility of error. In actuality, Roman Catholicism places itself above Scripture; i.e., it teaches that the Roman Catholic Church produced the Bible and that the pope is Christ's vicar on earth. Catholics also maintain the belief in sacerdotalism -- that an ordained Catholic priest has the power to forgive sins (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5). This of course is a false teaching because no one can forgive sin other then God Himself (Mark 2:7). The Word of God is the ONLY true source of truth, not church tradition.

2. Jesus Christ. Catholicism teaches that Christ is God, but they, nevertheless, do not believe that Christ's death paid the full penalty for sin; i.e., they believe that those who qualify for heaven must still spend time in purgatory to atone for sin (cf. John. 19: 30; Hebrews 10:11,12). There is nothing taught in the Bible about purgatory. Catholics diminish Christ's deity (as do other cults), but in a different manner; instead of bringing Christ low by denying his deity, Catholics elevate Mary high in an attempt to make her equal with Christ, this is heresy.

3. Mary. The Catholic Church gives honor and adoration to Mary that the Scriptures do not; she is readily referred to as "holy," the "Mother of God," and has been dubbed the "Co-Redemptrix," thereby making her an object of idolatrous worship (e.g., the rosary has ten prayers to Mary for each two directed to God). In 1923, Pope Pius XI sanctioned Pope Benedict XV's (1914-1922) pronouncement that Mary suffered with Christ, and that with Him, she redeemed the human race. And Pope Pius XII officially designated Mary the "Queen of Heaven" and "Queen of the World." Catholics claim not only that Mary was perfectly sinless from conception, even as Jesus was (doctrine of Immaculate Conception, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854), but that the reason she never sinned at any time during her life was because she was unable to sin (cf. Luke 1:46,47; Rom. 3:10,23; 5:12; Heb. 4:15; 1 John 1:8,10). Catholics also believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin (cf. Ps. 69:8; Matt. 1:24,25; 13:54-56; Mk. 6:3; John 7:5), and that she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven (doctrine of Assumption of Mary, declared ex cathedra by Pope Pius XII in November of 1950 -- that Mary was raised from the dead on the third day after her death, and anyone who refuses to believe this has committed a mortal sin). The consequence of all this veneration of Mary, in effect, establishes her authority above Christ's -- Rome says, "He came to us through Mary and we must go to Him through her." All this is so obviously idolatrous, one wonders why Catholics take offense when their religious affections are called cultic. Exodus 20:4,5 (the Ten Commandments) strictly forbids bowing down to any likeness of anything in heaven (this includes Mary). It's the 2nd command, read it for yourself! It's the same Scripture found in the Catholic Bible, so why do they disobey God?

4. Salvation. Catholics teach that a person is saved through the Roman Catholic Church and its sacraments, especially through baptism; they do not believe that salvation can be obtained by grace through faith in Christ alone, but that baptism is essential to salvation. Catholics believe that no one outside the Catholic Church can be saved (Unum Sanctum) (cf. John 5:24; Ephesians 2: 8,9; Galatians 2:21; Romans 3:22,23). They also believe that one's own suffering can expiate the sin's of himself and of others, so that what Christ's suffering was not able to achieve, one can achieve by his own works and the works of others (Vatican II). These are all lies of the Catholic church! The thief on the cross was never baptized. The Apostle Paul said Jesus had not sent him to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1st Corinthians 1:17). Jesus didn't baptize (John 4:2).

5. Sacraments.
Catholics have seven sacraments: baptism, confirmation, Eucharist (mass), penance/reconciliation (indulgences), extreme unction (last rights), marriage, and orders (ordination). Although not even formally decreed until the Council of Florence in 1439, the Council of Trent later declared all to be anathema whom do not hold Rome's position that it was Christ Himself who instituted these seven sacraments! (The idea behind the sacraments is that the shedding of Christ's Blood in His death upon the cross is of no value unless it is somehow dispensed and applied "sacramentally" by the Catholic priesthood.) Although Catholics believe that the first five sacraments are indispensable for salvation (because without any one of them, a mortal sin has been committed), baptism is considered the most important. Catholics believe that a person enters into the spiritual life of the Church through baptism; i.e., baptismal regeneration -- that a person can be saved through baptism (actually, 'on the road to salvation,' because Catholics never know exactly when they are saved). They practice infant baptism because they believe baptism erases original sin (cf. John 3:18). Titus 3:5 makes clear that we cannot be saved by works, "Not by works of righteousness..." There are NO sacraments taught in the Bible. Nothing is essential for our salvation other than simple child-like faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as personal Saviour to forgive our sins.

6. The Mass. Unknown in the early church, the mass did not become an official doctrine until pronounced by the Lateran Council of 1215 under the direction of Pope Innocent III, and reaffirmed by the Council of Trent. The Church of Rome holds that the mass is a continuation of the sacrifice that Christ made on Calvary -- in effect a re-crucifixion of Christ over and over again in an unbloody manner (cf. Hebrews 9:22; 1 John 1:7). They believe that by this means Christ offers Himself again and again as a sacrifice for sin (cf. Hebrews 7:27; 9:12,25,26; 10:10,12,14,18), and that this sacrifice is just as efficacious to take away sin as was the true sacrifice on Calvary. Catholics thus teach the doctrine of transubstantiation (meaning a change of substance) -- that the bread and wine (at communion) actually become (by the power of the priest!) the body and blood of Christ, which is then worshiped as God Himself! Indeed, the sacrifice of the mass is the central point of Catholic worship, as evidenced by the fact that those abstaining from attending mass are considered to have committed a mortal sin. Of course, holy communion is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches the "Lord's supper" which was simply an ordinance that Christ initiated for believers to do in remembrance of Him, no more. There is nothing magical about the Lord's supper. Nothing changes into anything. It is simply a time to remember Christ in an official church manner, Jesus is NOT dying again. The book of Hebrews tells us repeatedly that Jesus died "once" for all.

7. Purgatory. Of pagan origin, the Roman Church proclaimed purgatory as an article of faith in 1439 at the Council of Florence, and it was confirmed by Trent in 1548. The Catholic Church teaches that even those "who die in the state of grace" (i.e., saved and sins forgiven) must still spend an indefinite time being purged/purified (i.e., expiated of sins/cleansed for heaven). Technically, this "purging" can occur in this life rather than in purgatory itself, but as a practical matter, purgatory is the best the average Catholic can hope for. Some Catholics will admit that the doctrine of purgatory is not based on the Bible, but on Catholic tradition (which, by Catholic standards, is equally authoritative) (cf. John 5:24; Luke 23:43; 1 John 1:7,9; Phil. 1:23). (Others teach that it is based upon the interpretation of several Scriptural texts -- 1 Corinthians 3:15; 1 Peter 1:7; 3:19; Matt. 12:31.) They teach that those in purgatory can be helped by the prayers and good works of those on earth (which would include the "purchase" of masses and/or other indulgences), but they are not certain how these prayers and works are applied (cf. 2 Peter 1:9; Hebrews 1:3; John 3:18; 19:30; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8).

8. The Church Councils. There have been three major Roman Catholic Councils: Council of Trent (1545-1563), Vatican I (1869-1870), and Vatican II (1962-1965). The last Council, Vatican II, offered no new doctrines nor repudiated any essential teaching of the Roman Church; it referred to Trent dozens and dozens of times, quoted Trent's proclamations as authority, and reaffirmed Trent on every hand. Even the New Catholic Catechism (1992/1994) cites Trent no less than 99 times! There is not the slightest hint that the proclamations of the Council of Trent have been abrogated by Rome. At the opening of the Second Vatican council, Pope John XXIII stated, "I do accept entirely all that has been decided and declared at the Council of Trent," and all of the Catholic leaders who attended Vatican II signed a document containing this statement. (The current pope, Pope John Paul II, has even cited the Council of Trent as authority for his blasphemous position on Mary.):

Council of Trent -- The Council of Trent was held in an attempt to destroy the progress of the Protestant Reformation; it approved many superstitious and unbiblical beliefs of the Middle Ages (all to be believed under the threat of "anathema"):

(a) Denied every doctrine of the Reformation, from Sola Scriptura to "salvation by grace through faith alone";

(b) Pronounced 125 anathemas (i.e., eternal damnation) upon anyone believing what evangelicals believe and preach today;

(c) Equal value and authority of tradition and Scripture (in actuality, tradition is held above Scripture);

(d) Scriptures for the priesthood only (prohibited to anyone in the laity without written permission from one's superior -- to violate this was [and still is in most "Catholic countries" today] considered a mortal sin);

(e) Seven sacraments;

(f) Communion by eating the bread only (not drinking the wine);

(g) Purgatory;

(h) Indulgences;

(i) The Mass as a propitiatory offering.

Vatican I

(a) Defined the infallibility of the pope;

(b) Confirmed Unum Sanctum (no salvation outside of the Catholic Church).

Vatican II -- made no new doctrines, nor did it change or repudiate any old ones; Trent and Vatican I stand as is (i.e., Vatican II verified and validated all the anathemas of Trent). Vatican II reaffirmed such Roman heresies as papal supremacy; the Roman priesthood; the mass as an unbloody sacrifice of Christ; a polluted sacramental gospel; Catholic tradition on equal par with Scripture; Mary as the Queen of Heaven and co-Redemptrix with Christ; auricular confession; Mariolatry; pilgrimages to "holy shrines"; purgatory; prayers to and for the dead; etc. (Although the restriction against laity reading the Scriptures has been removed, it is still a mortal sin for a Roman Catholic anywhere to read any Protestant version of the Bible. That the real attitude of the Vatican toward the Bible has not changed is shown by the fact that in 1957 the depot of the British and Foreign Bible Society in Madrid, Spain was closed and its stock of Bibles confiscated and burned.)

(a) Reaffirmed the infallibility of the pope (and even when he does not speak ex-cathedra, all Catholics must still give complete submission of mind and will to what he says);

(b) Divided Catholic doctrine into that which is essential core of theology, and must be received by faith, and that which is still an undefined body of theology which Catholics may question and debate without repudiating their essential Catholicism;

(c) Established 20 complex rules concerning when and how any indulgence may be obtained, and condemned "with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them ... [for] the task of winning salvation."

A Sampling of the Anathemas (curses) of Trent:
If any one shall deny that the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is only in it as a sign, or in a figure, or virtually -- let him be accursed (Canon 1).

If any one shall say that the substance of the bread and wine remains in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, together with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and shall deny that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the outward forms of the bread and wine still remaining, which conversion the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation -- let him be accursed (Canon 2).

If any man shall say that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is not to be adored in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, even with the open worship of latria, and therefore not to be venerated with any peculiar festal celebrity, nor to be solemnly carried about in processions according to the praiseworthy, and universal rites and customs of the holy Church, and that he is not to be publicly set before the people to be adored, and that his adorers are idolaters -- let him be accursed (Canon 6).

If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed (Canon 9).

If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed (Canon 12).

These traditions which began at the Council of Trent are all heresies, NOT based upon the Word of God! Catholicism is a pagan religion, far far from the truth of God's Word. They have churchianity without Christianity!
 
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ViaCrucis

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1. Source of Authority. With respect to the Bible, Catholics accept the apocryphal books in addition to the 66 books of the Protestant Bible. They also accept tradition and the teaching of the Catholic Church as authoritative and at least equal to that of the Bible (cf. Mk. 7:8,9,13; Matt. 15:3,6,9; Col. 2:8). With respect to papal infallibility, Catholics believe that ecumenical councils of bishops and the pope are immune from error when speaking ex cathedra about faith and morals (i.e., "from the chair" -- by sole virtue of position or the exercise of an office). (And by "infallible," Catholics mean much more than merely a simple, de facto absence of error -- it is positive perfection, ruling out the possibility of error. In actuality, Roman Catholicism places itself above Scripture; i.e., it teaches that the Roman Catholic Church produced the Bible and that the pope is Christ's vicar on earth. Catholics also maintain the belief in sacerdotalism -- that an ordained Catholic priest has the power to forgive sins (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5). This of course is a false teaching because no one can forgive sin other then God Himself (Mark 2:7). The Word of God is the ONLY true source of truth, not church tradition.

2. Jesus Christ. Catholicism teaches that Christ is God, but they, nevertheless, do not believe that Christ's death paid the full penalty for sin; i.e., they believe that those who qualify for heaven must still spend time in purgatory to atone for sin (cf. John. 19: 30; Hebrews 10:11,12). There is nothing taught in the Bible about purgatory. Catholics diminish Christ's deity (as do other cults), but in a different manner; instead of bringing Christ low by denying his deity, Catholics elevate Mary high in an attempt to make her equal with Christ, this is heresy.

3. Mary. The Catholic Church gives honor and adoration to Mary that the Scriptures do not; she is readily referred to as "holy," the "Mother of God," and has been dubbed the "Co-Redemptrix," thereby making her an object of idolatrous worship (e.g., the rosary has ten prayers to Mary for each two directed to God). In 1923, Pope Pius XI sanctioned Pope Benedict XV's (1914-1922) pronouncement that Mary suffered with Christ, and that with Him, she redeemed the human race. And Pope Pius XII officially designated Mary the "Queen of Heaven" and "Queen of the World." Catholics claim not only that Mary was perfectly sinless from conception, even as Jesus was (doctrine of Immaculate Conception, proclaimed by Pope Pius IX in 1854), but that the reason she never sinned at any time during her life was because she was unable to sin (cf. Luke 1:46,47; Rom. 3:10,23; 5:12; Heb. 4:15; 1 John 1:8,10). Catholics also believe that Mary was a perpetual virgin (cf. Ps. 69:8; Matt. 1:24,25; 13:54-56; Mk. 6:3; John 7:5), and that she was assumed, body and soul, into heaven (doctrine of Assumption of Mary, declared ex cathedra by Pope Pius XII in November of 1950 -- that Mary was raised from the dead on the third day after her death, and anyone who refuses to believe this has committed a mortal sin). The consequence of all this veneration of Mary, in effect, establishes her authority above Christ's -- Rome says, "He came to us through Mary and we must go to Him through her." All this is so obviously idolatrous, one wonders why Catholics take offense when their religious affections are called cultic. Exodus 20:4,5 (the Ten Commandments) strictly forbids bowing down to any likeness of anything in heaven (this includes Mary). It's the 2nd command, read it for yourself! It's the same Scripture found in the Catholic Bible, so why do they disobey God?

4. Salvation. Catholics teach that a person is saved through the Roman Catholic Church and its sacraments, especially through baptism; they do not believe that salvation can be obtained by grace through faith in Christ alone, but that baptism is essential to salvation. Catholics believe that no one outside the Catholic Church can be saved (Unum Sanctum) (cf. John 5:24; Ephesians 2: 8,9; Galatians 2:21; Romans 3:22,23). They also believe that one's own suffering can expiate the sin's of himself and of others, so that what Christ's suffering was not able to achieve, one can achieve by his own works and the works of others (Vatican II). These are all lies of the Catholic church! The thief on the cross was never baptized. The Apostle Paul said Jesus had not sent him to baptize, but to preach the gospel (1st Corinthians 1:17). Jesus didn't baptize (John 4:2).

5. Sacraments.
Catholics have seven sacraments: baptism, confirmation, Eucharist (mass), penance/reconciliation (indulgences), extreme unction (last rights), marriage, and orders (ordination). Although not even formally decreed until the Council of Florence in 1439, the Council of Trent later declared all to be anathema whom do not hold Rome's position that it was Christ Himself who instituted these seven sacraments! (The idea behind the sacraments is that the shedding of Christ's Blood in His death upon the cross is of no value unless it is somehow dispensed and applied "sacramentally" by the Catholic priesthood.) Although Catholics believe that the first five sacraments are indispensable for salvation (because without any one of them, a mortal sin has been committed), baptism is considered the most important. Catholics believe that a person enters into the spiritual life of the Church through baptism; i.e., baptismal regeneration -- that a person can be saved through baptism (actually, 'on the road to salvation,' because Catholics never know exactly when they are saved). They practice infant baptism because they believe baptism erases original sin (cf. John 3:18). Titus 3:5 makes clear that we cannot be saved by works, "Not by works of righteousness..." There are NO sacraments taught in the Bible. Nothing is essential for our salvation other than simple child-like faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as personal Saviour to forgive our sins.

6. The Mass. Unknown in the early church, the mass did not become an official doctrine until pronounced by the Lateran Council of 1215 under the direction of Pope Innocent III, and reaffirmed by the Council of Trent. The Church of Rome holds that the mass is a continuation of the sacrifice that Christ made on Calvary -- in effect a re-crucifixion of Christ over and over again in an unbloody manner (cf. Hebrews 9:22; 1 John 1:7). They believe that by this means Christ offers Himself again and again as a sacrifice for sin (cf. Hebrews 7:27; 9:12,25,26; 10:10,12,14,18), and that this sacrifice is just as efficacious to take away sin as was the true sacrifice on Calvary. Catholics thus teach the doctrine of transubstantiation (meaning a change of substance) -- that the bread and wine (at communion) actually become (by the power of the priest!) the body and blood of Christ, which is then worshiped as God Himself! Indeed, the sacrifice of the mass is the central point of Catholic worship, as evidenced by the fact that those abstaining from attending mass are considered to have committed a mortal sin. Of course, holy communion is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches the "Lord's supper" which was simply an ordinance that Christ initiated for believers to do in remembrance of Him, no more. There is nothing magical about the Lord's supper. Nothing changes into anything. It is simply a time to remember Christ in an official church manner, Jesus is NOT dying again. The book of Hebrews tells us repeatedly that Jesus died "once" for all.

7. Purgatory. Of pagan origin, the Roman Church proclaimed purgatory as an article of faith in 1439 at the Council of Florence, and it was confirmed by Trent in 1548. The Catholic Church teaches that even those "who die in the state of grace" (i.e., saved and sins forgiven) must still spend an indefinite time being purged/purified (i.e., expiated of sins/cleansed for heaven). Technically, this "purging" can occur in this life rather than in purgatory itself, but as a practical matter, purgatory is the best the average Catholic can hope for. Some Catholics will admit that the doctrine of purgatory is not based on the Bible, but on Catholic tradition (which, by Catholic standards, is equally authoritative) (cf. John 5:24; Luke 23:43; 1 John 1:7,9; Phil. 1:23). (Others teach that it is based upon the interpretation of several Scriptural texts -- 1 Corinthians 3:15; 1 Peter 1:7; 3:19; Matt. 12:31.) They teach that those in purgatory can be helped by the prayers and good works of those on earth (which would include the "purchase" of masses and/or other indulgences), but they are not certain how these prayers and works are applied (cf. 2 Peter 1:9; Hebrews 1:3; John 3:18; 19:30; 2 Corinthians 5:6-8).

8. The Church Councils. There have been three major Roman Catholic Councils: Council of Trent (1545-1563), Vatican I (1869-1870), and Vatican II (1962-1965). The last Council, Vatican II, offered no new doctrines nor repudiated any essential teaching of the Roman Church; it referred to Trent dozens and dozens of times, quoted Trent's proclamations as authority, and reaffirmed Trent on every hand. Even the New Catholic Catechism (1992/1994) cites Trent no less than 99 times! There is not the slightest hint that the proclamations of the Council of Trent have been abrogated by Rome. At the opening of the Second Vatican council, Pope John XXIII stated, "I do accept entirely all that has been decided and declared at the Council of Trent," and all of the Catholic leaders who attended Vatican II signed a document containing this statement. (The current pope, Pope John Paul II, has even cited the Council of Trent as authority for his blasphemous position on Mary.):

Council of Trent -- The Council of Trent was held in an attempt to destroy the progress of the Protestant Reformation; it approved many superstitious and unbiblical beliefs of the Middle Ages (all to be believed under the threat of "anathema"):

(a) Denied every doctrine of the Reformation, from Sola Scriptura to "salvation by grace through faith alone";

(b) Pronounced 125 anathemas (i.e., eternal damnation) upon anyone believing what evangelicals believe and preach today;

(c) Equal value and authority of tradition and Scripture (in actuality, tradition is held above Scripture);

(d) Scriptures for the priesthood only (prohibited to anyone in the laity without written permission from one's superior -- to violate this was [and still is in most "Catholic countries" today] considered a mortal sin);

(e) Seven sacraments;

(f) Communion by eating the bread only (not drinking the wine);

(g) Purgatory;

(h) Indulgences;

(i) The Mass as a propitiatory offering.

Vatican I

(a) Defined the infallibility of the pope;

(b) Confirmed Unum Sanctum (no salvation outside of the Catholic Church).

Vatican II -- made no new doctrines, nor did it change or repudiate any old ones; Trent and Vatican I stand as is (i.e., Vatican II verified and validated all the anathemas of Trent). Vatican II reaffirmed such Roman heresies as papal supremacy; the Roman priesthood; the mass as an unbloody sacrifice of Christ; a polluted sacramental gospel; Catholic tradition on equal par with Scripture; Mary as the Queen of Heaven and co-Redemptrix with Christ; auricular confession; Mariolatry; pilgrimages to "holy shrines"; purgatory; prayers to and for the dead; etc. (Although the restriction against laity reading the Scriptures has been removed, it is still a mortal sin for a Roman Catholic anywhere to read any Protestant version of the Bible. That the real attitude of the Vatican toward the Bible has not changed is shown by the fact that in 1957 the depot of the British and Foreign Bible Society in Madrid, Spain was closed and its stock of Bibles confiscated and burned.)

(a) Reaffirmed the infallibility of the pope (and even when he does not speak ex-cathedra, all Catholics must still give complete submission of mind and will to what he says);

(b) Divided Catholic doctrine into that which is essential core of theology, and must be received by faith, and that which is still an undefined body of theology which Catholics may question and debate without repudiating their essential Catholicism;

(c) Established 20 complex rules concerning when and how any indulgence may be obtained, and condemned "with anathema those who say that indulgences are useless or that the Church does not have the power to grant them ... [for] the task of winning salvation."

A Sampling of the Anathemas (curses) of Trent:
If any one shall deny that the body and blood together with the soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore entire Christ, are truly, really, and substantially contained in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist; and shall say that He is only in it as a sign, or in a figure, or virtually -- let him be accursed (Canon 1).

If any one shall say that the substance of the bread and wine remains in the sacrament of the most holy Eucharist, together with the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, and shall deny that wonderful and singular conversion of the whole substance of the bread into the body, and of the whole substance of the wine into the blood, the outward forms of the bread and wine still remaining, which conversion the Catholic Church most aptly calls transubstantiation -- let him be accursed (Canon 2).

If any man shall say that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, is not to be adored in the holy sacrament of the Eucharist, even with the open worship of latria, and therefore not to be venerated with any peculiar festal celebrity, nor to be solemnly carried about in processions according to the praiseworthy, and universal rites and customs of the holy Church, and that he is not to be publicly set before the people to be adored, and that his adorers are idolaters -- let him be accursed (Canon 6).

If anyone shall say that the ungodly man is justified by faith only so as to understand that nothing else is required that may cooperate to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is in no wise necessary for him to be prepared and disposed by the motion of his own will ... let him be accursed (Canon 9).

If anyone shall say that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in the divine mercy pardoning sins for Christ's sake, or that it is that confidence alone by which we are justified ... let him be accursed (Canon 12).

These traditions which began at the Council of Trent are all heresies, NOT based upon the Word of God! Catholicism is a pagan religion, far far from the truth of God's Word. They have churchianity without Christianity!

So what does any of this have to do with what I've said in this thread?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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2Timothy2:15

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You're the one talking about buildings. I'm not.

I'm talking about the Church instituted by Christ who says, "Upon this rock I will build My Church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it." Christ builds it, Christ institutes it.

-CryptoLutheran

No he is not "instituting" anything, he is establishing the spiritual body of Christ and our authority. Quiet frankly that is bad exegeses to say he is creating an institution.
So what does any of this have to do with what I've said in this thread?

-CryptoLutheran

You are the one endorsing the RCC...that is what it has to do. You are the one who took it there and implied apostolic succession. You are the one who said that you will take 2000 years of so called Roman Catholic history...it has everything to do. Why? Because the false system of "church" led by men, housed in buildings, and something presented as a thing we go to is not biblical and that is what you are trying to defend. No where in the bible do you find the modern "church structure" or even the old Roman Catholic system and opulent buildings...So if you want to continue with circular arguments, you will do so alone. You can not endorse a false pagan system such as the RCC the harlot of rev 17 and then lecture the rest of us on a phony system of authority that is not found in scripture.

James 1:8King James Version (KJV)
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Really Roman Catholic is more biblical says the Lutheran?

More biblical than modern DIY neo-Protestantism? Yes, says the Lutheran.

Hmmmm...something does not add up.

My guess is that it's that you don't know much if anything about Lutheranism or the Reformation.

You do know that the RCC was formed in 330 AD under Constantine?

False.

Roman Catholicism as a distinct ecclesiological entity under the primacy of the bishop of Rome arose due to the Great Schism of 1054, though differences between the Western and Eastern Churches began earlier.

The term "Roman" here refers to the city of Rome, not the Roman empire. It can refer to the Roman liturgical rite (as opposed to other traditional Western rites as well as Eastern rites), but most often speaks of the the role of the bishop of Rome within [Roman] Catholicism. Wheras the other four of the historic Patriarches are in the East (Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem) Rome was the only historic Patriarchate in the West, and so Roman liturgical forms would come to dominate the Western Churches in the years following the collapse of the Western Roman Empire, the dwindling relations with the Eastern Churches with the political conflicts between barbarian powers in the West and the Roman Empire in the East, the crowning of the Frankish king Charles as "emperor of the Romans", and the Photian Schism.

These things coming to a breaking point in the 11th century with the Great Schism, and only intensifying because of further broken relations with the Eastern Churches over the Fourth Crusade and the Council of Florence; solidifying the breach between the Western and Eastern Churches: Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy respectively.

Constantine's role historically while not insignificant in the history of the Christian Church shouldn't be transformed into conspiracy theory and fantasy. Constantine's historic significance can be described as follows:

1) Constantine attributed his victory over Maximian to the Christian God, and so with Constantine gaining possession of the Roman Empire in the west without rival, he sought to give patronage to the Christian religion. This he did in several ways, first he worked with his co-emperor Licinius in the East to order the Edict of Toleration which formally ended the persecutions against Christians. This was no small matter as this was shortly after the greatest persecution against Christians ever brought upon them by the Roman Empire--under Diocletian--had happened, giving official toleration to the Christian religion was celebrated by Christians throughout the empire. Further Constantine gave favorable support to Christians, sponsoring the building of churches, giving Christian clergy the same abstention from military duty afforded to pagan priests under Roman law.

2) Constantine consolidated his power over the Empire by defeating his co-emperor Licinius in battle, thus becoming the sole reigning emperor. With this Constantine inherited the theological controversy then raging in the East, namely the one begun by Arius a former presbyter from Alexandria. To that end Constantine, in the year 325, invited bishops from all across the Roman empire to meet at the city of Nicea to address the issue and reach a conclusion. The council bishops composed a creed which was decidedly against Arius by stating that the Son's relationship with the Father was homoousios--the Son was of the same substance or being as the Father, "God of God", the council also pronounced several anathemas against Arianism. This, didn't, however resolve the issue and a number of councils met afterward favoring Arianism--and ultimately Constantine himself through the influence Arians such as Eusebius of Nicomedia and the semi-Arian Eusebius of Caesarea would become himself embroiled in the controversy, taking sides with the Arians against the Nicene party. Following Constantine's death his successors would continue to be embroiled in the controversy without resolution for another fifty years.

3) As an important patron of the Christian religion Constantine, having moved the imperial capital from Rome to Byzantium (renamed Constantinople) chose to make the new capital an example for the rest of the empire--to that end he supported the building of fifty churches and the copying of fifty Bibles to be put into those churches. By no means a small deal, it is likely that some of our earliest biblical codices such as Codex Sinaiticus exist because of the need for copies of the Scriptures--something that not only was legal now but in fact actively supported by the emperor.

And now we should turn to things which Constantine never did, but which I routinely hear attributed to him:

1) Constantine did not come up with the doctrine of the Trinity.
2) Constantine did not choose which books belonged in the Bible.
3) Constantine did not make Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.
4) Constantine was not the first pope, nor did he invent the papacy, or elect the first pope.
5) Constantine was never head of the Christian church, or of any church.
6) Constantine did not change the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday.
7) Constantine did not paganize Christianity by inventing Easter and Christmas.
8) Constantine wasn't an alien from the planet Jargabble-X (okay, this one I've never heard anyone claim, but it has the same weight of credibility as the rest).

So no. Constantine did not come up with or start the Roman Catholic Church. That's not historical. And I'm not saying this because I'm some secret Vatican spy who infiltrated a local Lutheran church in order to fool the twelve people who attend, but because I've actually bothered to put some time and effort into reading a history book or two. And no, not "Roman Catholic history books", just regular history books. Want to know two of them? Try Church History in Plain Language by Dr. Bruce Shelley (an Evangelical) and The Story of Christianity by Justo L. Gonzales (a Methodist).

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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No he is not "instituting" anything, he is establishing the spiritual body of Christ and our authority. Quiet frankly that is bad exegeses to say he is creating an institution.

What part of "I will build My church" is confusing here?

οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν

"I will build, found, establish, construct my church"

You are the one endorsing the RCC...that is what it has to do. You are the one who took it there and implied apostolic succession. You are the one who said that you will take 2000 years of so called Roman Catholic history...it has everything to do. Why? Because the false system of "church" led by men, housed in buildings, and something presented as a thing we go to is not biblical and that is what you are trying to defend. No where in the bible do you find the modern "church structure" or even the old Roman Catholic system and opulent buildings...So if you want to continue with circular arguments, you will do so alone. You can not endorse a false pagan system such as the RCC the harlot of rev 17 and then lecture the rest of us on a phony system of authority that is not found in scripture.

James 1:8King James Version (KJV)
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

It seems to me that the problem is that you have arrived at false conclusions based on false premises because you haven't bothered to learn about the subject matter.

I mentioned two books on church history in my previous post, I highly recommend you do some homework here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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