.

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[Albion]

Why might it be, if it refects one's sentiments accurately?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

.

 

[Albion]

Some think it is, and some think it's not. What's you opinion?

I can't imagine why it wouldn't be authentic.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I can't imagine why it wouldn't be authentic.

If it's not spontaneous, it's mechanical and by rote, etc. That's the argument of some.

 

[Albion]

If it's not spontaneous, it's mechanical and by wrote, etc. That's the argument of some.

Every time we pray the Lord's Prayer, even though that was dictated to his disciples by Jesus, we are doing it by rote, so is that impermissible? I don't see the reasoning.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Every time we pray the Lord's Prayer, even though that was dictated to his disciples by Jesus, we are doing it by rote, so is that impermissible? I don't see the reasoning.

Many churches do not permit it or would be shocked to even hear of someone writing out a prayer or praying from a prayer book. It's very likely that the Me, Jesus & My Bible folks would be among those who would feel that way.

For much of evangelicalism, the Christian life is lived within one's heart. There is no connection to the church of the past 2,000 years, or even the church of last week, for that matter. Self-expression is the highest good, so praying "someone elses" prayer flies in the face of that.

 

[Jipsah]

During a worship service, is it inauthentic to use a prayer that you wrote beforehand or someone else wrote 1,000 years ago?

If so we can discard the Psalms, can't we?

 

[Jipsah]

Every time we pray the Lord's Prayer, even though that was dictated to his disciples by Jesus, we are doing it by rote, so is that impermissible? I don't see the reasoning.

Vain repetition! (That's what the fundies will shout, anyway.)

 

[jimmyjimmy]

If so we can discard the Psalms, can't we?

The same people who think it inauthentic to pray prewritten prayers still read the Psalms. They just don't pray them.

 

[Albion]

Many churches do not permit it or would be shocked to even hear of someone writing out a prayer or praying from a prayer book. It's very likely that the Me, Jesus & My Bible folks would be among those who would feel that way.

Oh, I'm sure that there are such folks, but if I'm asked what I think of it, I can't see any logic in that position or, for that matter, any Biblical reason to adopt it.

For much of evangelicalism, the Christian life is lived within one's heart. There is no connection to the church of the past 2,000 years, or even the church of last week, for that matter. Self-expression is the highest good, so praying "someone elses" prayer flies in the face of that.

Again, if you ask me, I can't agree. I can appreciate why they say what they do, and I CAN accept the general principle, but I can't see that reciting a prepared prayer is automatically insincere. If I read a prayer and put nothing of myself into what it states, then that would be wrong, obviously. If the sentiments expressed are clearly slanted by the author to bring about a phony agreement with some political premise, for instance, that's wrong.

However, almost every prayer that I recite from the prayerbook used in my church reflects my heartfelt and Scripturally-correct sentiments, so to say that there's something wrong--or that I cannot emotionally connect with what I'm saying when reading it--is just arbitrary. And frankly, I think there's a good argument for the OPPOSITE view.

Personally, I grow cold at hearing nothing but awkward, inarticulate, repetitious extemporaneous prayers offered by people on such occasions as grace before meals or at a Bible study group, for instance. They're sincere and I appreciate that, but they don't relate to me very well

By contrast, some of the prayers that I find in a book can be tremendously uplifting and beautiful. And there's no reason to say that the words are not sincerely meant by me when I recite them, not any more than the hymn "Amazing Grace" or the 23rd Psalm--both of which owe to someone else's pen.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Personally, I grow cold at hearing nothing but awkward, inarticulate, repetitious extemporaneous prayers offered by people on such occasions as grace before meals or at a Bible study group, for instance. They're sincere and I appreciate that, but they're not doing a thing for me.

I agree. I've heard people refer to some of the extemporaneous prayers as "just" prayers. "Lord, I just want to thank you for just blessing us the church picnic, and for just. . .

And there's no reason to say that the words are not sincerely meant by me when I recite them, not any more than the hymn "Amazing Grace" or the 23rd Psalm--both of which owe to someone else's pen.

This is my first argument to one who disapproves if written prayers. We don't just make up hymns on the spot, do we?

 

[Albion]

I agree. I've heard people refer to some of the extemporaneous prayers as "just" prayers. "Lord, I just want to thank you for just blessing us the church picnic, and for just. . .

 

[grasping the after wind]

I think there is a middle ground between spontaneous prayer and rote recitation. Either can be insincere or sincere depending upon the person doing the praying. I think it is much easier to pray insincerely by using rote recitation and I think rote recitation is more conducive to insincerity than spontaneous prayer but either can be sincere, again depending upon the attitude of the one praying. I struggle with oft recited prayer in order to make sure I am not vainly repeating something without it holding any immediate meaning while i am repeating something i have so often said in the past. I could very easily make up an insincere spontaneous prayer but I would be much more likely to aware of my insincerity when i did it. Reciting a prayer can be an insincere action that I unwittingly engage in without really knowing I am doing so because it has become merely a habit to recite words rather than an intentional reaching out to God. I believe we ought to engage in both spontaneous and well known prayers but be careful not to simply say words which we as are not paying attention to.

 

[ChristsSoldier115]

Vain repetition! (That's what the fundies will shout, anyway.)

I think its a fear they have because they are guilty of the crime.

 

[tz620q]

Every time we pray the Lord's Prayer, even though that was dictated to his disciples by Jesus, we are doing it by rote, so is that impermissible? I don't see the reasoning.

Do you recite the doxology immediately at the end of the Lord's Prayer or after a small prayer by the priest? I was asked about the origin of the doxology, which cannot be found in Matthew's version of the Lord's Prayer. It can, however be found in the Didache version of the Lord's Prayer. This shocked me. So either it was always there and just didn't get written into Matthew or it was a very early addition.

 

[Albion]

Do you recite the doxology immediately at the end of the Lord's Prayer

Yes, always. Of course, there are several versions of that, too, and some denominations favor one over another, just as they say "debts" and "debtors" rather than "trespasses."

 

[Wgw]

Some think it is, and some think it's not. What's you opinion?

My opinion is that while ex tempore prayer is acceptable, we are obliged by the canons of the ancient church, like the Apostolic Tradition of St. Hippolytus, and so on, to read liturgical prayers, for example, the Lord's Prayer, the various ancient liturgies, and so on. Also on the basis of 2 Thessalonians 2:15.

What "vain repetitions" refers to rather were the ritual mantras still chanted to this day in the Indian religions, and the glossolalia that was a fixture of various Pagan religions in the time of Christ. Recently texts have been recovered from the Mithras Mysteries. Take a look at this liturgy for an example of what our Lord meant by "vain repetition":

have consecrated you, that your essence may be useful to me, to _______ alone, IE IA E EE OY EIA, that you may prove useful to me (765) alone. For I am PHOR PHORA PHOS PHOTIZAAS (others: PHOR PHOR OPHOTHEI XAAS)."

Source:

http://hermetic.com/pgm/mithras-liturgy.html

 

[Wgw]

Yes, always. Of course, there are several versions of that, too, and some denominations favor one over another, just as they say "debts" and "debtors" rather than "trespasses."

In the Orthodox Church, the doxology is usually recited, by being intoned aloud, by the celebrant.

So the congregation will say the prayer, and then the priest will sing "For thine is the kingdom and the honor and the glory, of the Father and the Son and the Holy Gnost, now and ever and unto the ages of ages!"

 

[GoingByzantine]

If it's not spontaneous, it's mechanical and by rote, etc. That's the argument of some.

Spontaneous prayer can also be disingenuous...all prayer is good prayer when it is sincere.