70th Week - It Is Still Pending

[David Kent]

I fully agree.

Daniel 9 starts with the 70 years of Jeremiah.

It ends with the 70 weeks (490 years) that point to the first coming of Christ.

1. The 70 years of Jeremiah end in 538 B.C. with the decree of Cyrus.
2. The 70 weeks (490 year timeline) began in 457 and ended 490 years later in 34 A.D.

The first 483 years of that 490 year timeline take us to 27 A.D. the baptism of Christ
The "midst" of that final 7 years takes us to 31 A.D. when the Messiah is "cut off" - crucified.
The end of that final 7 years takes us to 34 A.D. Stoning of Stephen which ends the 490 year probationary time given for the Jews to decide up or down on their role in the Gospel plan to evangelize the world with the good news about Christ.


In both cases (as with all Bible timelines) each timeline is contiguous.

I agree except that the 490 years began with the decree of Cyrus.

 

[David Kent]

Not disagreeing, but as an aside, have you any thoughts on why 81 years elapsed between Cyrus decree and Artaxerxes decree?

They didn't.

 

[David Kent]

Hey, lets start at the BEGINNING, and see where we end up.
I'm game, are you?

The Chapter 11 prophecy starts in Chapter 10. To solve 10:1 we have to address 1:21:

Daniel 1:21 says that Daniel DIED in the first year of King Cyrus. Per Calvin:

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah, by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. ...
​

Here we find that Calvin deferred to "history" to discount 1:12, and accept 10:1. And where "history" can't account for Darius the Mede being in the Medo/Persian Empire, we can only conclude it wasn't "history" after all. It was really only believing 10:1 at the expense of 1:21.

But if we look closely at 10:1, we will not find the 1:21 reference to Cyrus as being "king":

1:21 And Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.
​

Instead 10:1 only presents Cyrus as "king" over the "Persians", -- not "king" over Daniel:

10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia ...
​

So now we should conclude that 10:1 pre-dates 1:21, and predates the conquest of Babylon. After the conquest of Babylon per verse 21, Cyrus became KING over all, and then Daniel DIED.​

And in a broader concept, Chapter 1 covers the span of Daniel's life. So of course 1:21 accounts for his DEATH.​

And I'm not "right". Scripture is. I merely cite what Scripture says.

Thanks,
DaDad

The answer is simple if you read historians like Xenophon and Josephus, Darius the Mede (aka Cyaxares) was the uncle of Cyrus. The sister of Cyaxares/Darius, Mandane, was the mother of Cyrus. Their father was Astyages aka Ahasuerus, who was the grandfather of Cyrus.

The war with Babylon was started by Cyaxares/Darius the Mede, who employed his nephew Cyrus as his General. When Cyrus conquered Babylon he gave the kingdom to Cyaxares/Darius, (Darius received the kingdom) who reigned for two years before he died. Cyrus then took back the kingdom, so that was his 1st year of total rule but the third year of his conuering Babylon.

Josephus says that the father of Darius was Astyages and Darius was known by another name by the Greeks. (But Josephus didn't seem to know it.

 

[DaDad]

I agree except that the 490 years began with the decree of Cyrus.

Ummmmmmm, --

1. The "weeks" are not in the concise Feminine text, but instead are in the "unusual" inconcise Masculine text. Thus the seventy "sevens" ≠ 490 years.

“... as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’”

“...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds".

[1] John Wolvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217-218​

2. The "going forth of the word" is not from a man-king, but instead is a Word directly from GOD:

“[Per Young] This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God. Young goes on to point out that the expression the commandment, which he insists is better translated “a word” (Heb. Dābār; cf. 2Ch 30:5) is also found is Daniel 9:23 for a word from God.”[1]
[1] John Wolvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 224​

This "going forth of the word" is in Scripture. And Scripture substantiates that it can be found. Have you not found it yet?
​

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[DaDad]

... Darius was known by another name by the Greeks. (But Josephus didn't seem to know it.

It seems that "Josephus" didn't seem to know a lot of things.

Because the Chapter 11 prophecy starts at Chapter 10, perhaps YOU can help me understand how "Josephus" resolved Daniel 1:21 & 10:1, so we know the time-line. Or if not "Josephus", then clearly you appear to have a sufficient grasp of History to explain the "contradiction" of those two verses:

1:21 And Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.
10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a word was revealed to Daniel​

Commentary on Daniel - Volume 1 (Link)

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah, by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.​

Calvin resolved the "contradiction" by disregarding 1:21 in deference to 10:1. Does your (or "Josephus') account allow BOTH verses to be PERFECTLY CORRECT as written?

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[BobRyan]

I agree except that the 490 years began with the decree of Cyrus.

They do not begin with the decree of Cyrus.

Cyrus - 536 B.C. Ezra 1.
Darius - ??
Artexerxes - 457 B.C - Ezra 6:14 (and Ezra 7:1-8)

69 weeks (483 years) - and then the annointed one, the Messiah begins his mission in 27 A.D. so then only Artexerxes' decree can be used for the starting point.

546 B.C. + 483 years only gets you to 63 B.C.
The decree to "restore and rebuild Jerusalem" had to include the Temple.

It was a 3-part decree to be qualified as the fulfillment of the "decree of God".
Ezra 6:14 And the elders of the Jews were successful in building through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they finished building according to the command of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia

 

[BobRyan]

Not disagreeing, but as an aside, have you any thoughts on why 81 years elapsed between Cyrus decree and Artaxerxes decree?

Cyrus, Darius, Artaxerxes -- the building was "stalled shut down" as Ezra 4 shows us due to a sabotage effort by the Samaritans that was partially successful in delaying the fulfillment.

But when it is all finally in place - we see that Ezra 6 puts it all together as "the decree".

Ezra 6:14 And the elders of the Jews were successful in building through the prophesying of Haggai the prophet and Zechariah the son of Iddo. And they finished building according to the command of the God of Israel and the decree of Cyrus, Darius, and Artaxerxes king of Persia

 

[jgr]

Ummmmmmm, --

1. The "weeks" are not in the concise Feminine text, but instead are in the "unusual" inconcise Masculine text. Thus the seventy "sevens" ≠ 490 years.

“... as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’”

“...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds".

[1] John Wolvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217-218

Debunked.

Here is an intensive analysis of the etymology involved in the weeks of Daniel 9:24-27.

The "conclusion is conclusive":

In conclusion, on the basis of our observations concerning the grammar, syntax, and function of the Hebrew language as manifested in doublegender nouns, we have a better grasp of the true intentionality of the "seventy weeks" as signifying an uninterrupted chronological time unit whose sum total is determined by God and is to be "cut off" for the people of Israel and the holy city. This period of time stands for 490 years of historical time, as has been the consensus of interpreters for centuries. Indeed, the clarification of the masculine form of the noun for "weeks," as based on Hebrew syntax, should remove much speculation and misinterpretation of this prophetic time period of Dan 9:24, putting an understanding of it on a solid grammatical-syntactical footing-- a footing without which no good exegesis can function.

 

[BobRyan]

Ummmmmmm, --
“... as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’”

​

So then they admit they are floundering for a way out of their dilemma.. How "instructive"

“...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time

so the 70 non-weeks of no-actual-time-at-all as the "time" that is allotted??.

Looks like guesswork piled into creative-writing.

​

 

[DaDad]

So then they admit they are floundering for a way out of their dilemma.​

​

No! They're holding on to the FACTS, even though they haven't been able figure out the significance. This is VERY REASONABLE, because we have only recently entered "the time of the end" when the Daniel's prophecies can be unsealed and opened. And so NOW we can put the puzzle pieces together.

It's the people who DIDN'T WAIT until the time of the end who are violating the angelic instructions, and creating fables in the process.

​

If you like fables, stay right where you are. Don't look at the FACTS.

Thanks,
DaDad

​

 

[BABerean2]

​

No! They're holding on to the FACTS, even though they haven't been able figure out the significance. This is VERY REASONABLE, because we have only recently entered "the time of the end" when the Daniel's prophecies can be unsealed and opened. And so NOW we can put the puzzle pieces together.

It's the people who DIDN'T WAIT until the time of the end who are violating the angelic instructions, and creating fables in the process.

​

If you like fables, stay right where you are. Don't look at the FACTS.

Thanks,
DaDad

​

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::

 

[DaDad]

From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7
"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies\

Exactly. Now please tell me how this complies with the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9? -- And PLEASE DON'T give me an excuse why the words aren't "shut up and sealed" when the context CLEARLY depicts MODERN society:

4 ... Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”​

It's easier to change all four tires than to change a man's mind.

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[David Kent]

You should know, but don't seem to, that the dominant power at the end of Daniel were the Medes, not the Persians. So in Daniel we have the law of the Medes and Persians, but by the time of Esther, the Persians were the dominant power, and there we have the Law of the Persians and Medes,

 

[DaDad]

You should know, but don't seem to, ...

... and neither do the Historians.

So let me ask you, -- I'm concerned with identifying when Daniel died. Chapter 1 appears to cover the span of Daniel's life, including his death in verse 21, for which Calvin gives his analysis:

Commentary on Daniel - Volume 1

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah, by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.​

So here we find that Daniel died in the FIRST year of King Cyrus, but it apparently disagrees with the 10:1 THIRD year of Cyrus king of Persia. So Calvin disregards 1:21 in deference to 10:1.

My question is, was 1:21 incorrect as Calvin apparently concluded, or is there a "solution" where BOTH 1:21 and 10:1 are CORRECT? -- And please don't tell me that Daniel continued past being "broken"...

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[BABerean2]

Exactly. Now please tell me how this complies with the angel's instructions in 12:4 & 9? -- And PLEASE DON'T give me an excuse why the words aren't "shut up and sealed" when the context CLEARLY depicts MODERN society:

4 ... Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”​

It's easier to change all four tires than to change a man's mind.

Thanks,
DaDad

1Pe 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
1Pe 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you
1Pe 1:21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

.

 

[DaDad]

1Pe 1:20 ... t in these last times for you

I may have missed it, but did Peter cite ~70 mph mass transit~; 500 mph airlines; and terebyte HOME COMPUTERS?

Daniel 12:4 "... shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”​

Or, are you attempting to trick us into thinking that ~70AD was the "time of the end"? -- As though we all should be so naive ...

Thanks,
DaDad

 

[BABerean2]

I may have missed it, but did Peter cite ~70 mph mass transit~; 500 mph airlines; and terebyte HOME COMPUTERS?

Daniel 12:4 "... shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”​

Or, are you attempting to trick us into thinking that ~70AD was the "time of the end"? -- As though we all should be so naive ...

Thanks,
DaDad

Did Daniel cite mass transit, and airplanes, and computers, or is it just your imagination?

... or did you get it from Walvoord, and his buddies?

.

 

[DaDad]

Did Daniel cite mass transit, and airplanes, and computers, or is it just your imagination?

... or did you get it from Walvoord, and his buddies?

If you can't read, then you can't interpret. Did you want me to READ IT TO YOU?
Thanks,
DaDad

 

[BABerean2]

If you can't read, then you can't interpret. Did you want me to READ IT TO YOU?

Do you need a special pair of glasses to get the Dispensational interpretation?

Does it require that John 10:22 be erased from my Bible?

How about Hebrews 10:16-18?
Was Christ really the final sacrifice?

.

 

[DaDad]

...

Once Again:
I may have missed it, but did Peter cite ~70 mph mass transit~; 500 mph airlines; and terebyte HOME COMPUTERS?

Daniel 12:4 "... shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”​

Thanks,
DaDad