70 weeks

[mkgal1]

Other wise let us talk like sane rational people.

Yes, let's do that. That would mean a cessation of ad hominem remarks like this one.

 

[mkgal1]

And it says what you just said in the bible where?

This is just making an assumption on SCripture based on your own personal bias. IOW you are allegorizing what Moses said to defend your allegorical opinion that the native Israeli zealots suddenly became Gentiles and lost their "Jewishness".

Are you absolutely 100% positive that not a single zealot was doing it with a misguided heart? L

Not everything is spelled out for us in the Bible.....but that's where the continuity of the historical Church is most useful.

Quoting historian Ray Vander Laan:

Full article here: "That the World May Know | Zealots-People of the Palm Branch" Zealots-People of the Palm Branch

And another article:

"That the World May Know | The Jewish Revolts" The Jewish Revolts

 

[Timtofly]

As Peter explained....God appointed Jesus as the One to judge the living and the dead....and Jesus offers forgiveness for all sin:

Acts 10:39-43
39We are witnesses of all that He did, both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And although they put Him to death by hanging Him on a tree, 40God raised Him up on the third day and caused Him to be seen— 41not by all the people, but by the witnesses God had chosen beforehand, by us who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead. 42And He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One appointed by God to judge the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.”
​

........that's the "end of sin". Sin has no power over those who believe in Him.

This is still not the definition of the end of sin. Nor do theses verses acknowledge the power of sin. Jesus offers forgiveness of sin. The end of sin is the point no more sin is committed. Forgiveness is an ongoing phenomenon. Judging the dead is condemnation because those dead in their sin are constantly being judged, even in death. Judgment on the living is very subjective. Only each individual can see that judgment. The Cross was the judgment on sin. Those who reject the Cross carry their judgment themselves. That does not mean the Cross changes depending on who rejects. Those who carry their own judgment do so unnecessarily, not instead of. Christ still carried their judgment as well. I am pretty sure sin has power over even Christians, so not sure why you think "power" is gone. We all sin. 1 John 1:8-10

8 If we claim not to have sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we acknowledge our sins, then, since he is trustworthy and just, he will forgive them and purify us from all wrongdoing.
10 If we claim we have not been sinning, we are making him out to be a liar, and his Word is not in us.

What is gone is the penalty of death. We do not have to die because of sin. If sin is gone and no longer exist, that claim makes God a liar, and whoever claims sin is gone is not telling the truth.

 

[jeffweedaman]

As Peter explained....God appointed Jesus as the One to judge the living and the dead....and Jesus offers forgiveness for all sin:

Acts 10:39-43
39We are witnesses of all that He did, both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And although they put Him to death by hanging Him on a tree, 40God raised Him up on the third day and caused Him to be seen— 41not by all the people, but by the witnesses God had chosen beforehand, by us who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead. 42And He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One appointed by God to judge the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.”
​

........that's the "end of sin". Sin has no power over those who believe in Him.

So true.

My own sins and transgressions do not condemn me, because Jesus took them away.
That puts an end to my sin and yours.

His grace is sufficient for me as long as I remain humbly in him.

I would be believing a lie if the end of sins happens in the future.
Jesus has been washing my feet my whole life and I am ashamed to say he will wash them again tomorrow.



Jn
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself but must remain in the vine, so neither can you unless you remain in Me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.

6 If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.


When God declares you as clean, then you are spotless......and in Gods eyes everlastingly righteous in his accomplished earthly ministry to take away the sins of the whole world.
It is so finished.

 

[nolidad]

As Peter explained....God appointed Jesus as the One to judge the living and the dead....and Jesus offers forgiveness for all sin:

Acts 10:39-43
39We are witnesses of all that He did, both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem. And although they put Him to death by hanging Him on a tree, 40God raised Him up on the third day and caused Him to be seen— 41not by all the people, but by the witnesses God had chosen beforehand, by us who ate and drank with Him after He rose from the dead. 42And He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that He is the One appointed by God to judge the living and the dead. 43All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.”
​

........that's the "end of sin". Sin has no power over those who believe in Him.

So you believe the new covenant as written in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is fulfilled by the death of jesus.

so then you have the teo peoples of God doctrine you accussed others of having.

You believe that all the house of Israel and Judah now have Gods laws in their hearts, they all know the Lord ffrom the least to tthe greatest and their sins and iniquities are remembered no more!

Why don't you just admit it then instead of all this tap dancing.

Once again, I cannot help if you do not know how to read definitions of words like fulfill, and mediator and how they are completely different.

 

[nolidad]

But there needs to be supporting evidence presented. All I'm seeing are empty accusations.

Read all teh posts. there is enormous evidence if you care to do a little work.

 

[nolidad]

Yes, let's do that. That would mean a cessation of ad hominem remarks like this one.

This is a simple statement with no hostility behind it. But a plea

 

[nolidad]

Not everything is spelled out for us in the Bible.....but that's where the continuity of the historical Church is most useful.

Quoting historian Ray Vander Laan:
View attachment 291548
Full article here: "That the World May Know | Zealots-People of the Palm Branch" Zealots-People of the Palm Branch

And another article:

"That the World May Know | The Jewish Revolts" The Jewish Revolts

And what does this have to do with the Jewishness of the Zealots which I already know from SCripture and history?

If anything this just fortifies the argument made they are Jewish and not Gentiles.

 

[mkgal1]

So you believe the new covenant as written in Jeremiah 31:31-34 is fulfilled by the death of jesus.

so then you have the teo peoples of God doctrine you accussed others of having.

You believe that all the house of Israel and Judah now have Gods laws in their hearts, they all know the Lord ffrom the least to tthe greatest and their sins and iniquities are remembered no more!

Why don't you just admit it then instead of all this tap dancing.

No.....that's not what i believe.

My argument and yours begin at two separate starting points. Those who have the belief that the New Covenant is left unfulfilled rely on that one word "ALL" to hold their framework together. Never was it prophesied that ALL those in the Mosaic covenant would accept Christ....otherwise verses like this wouldn't appear in our Scriptures:

Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?
​

And what does this have to do with the Jewishness of the Zealots which I already know from SCripture and history?

If anything this just fortifies the argument made they are Jewish and not Gentiles.

I was never questioning their "Jewishness". Both of us have shared that the origin of the word translated to "Gentile" is used for both Israelites and non-Israelites.

My point was the Zealots had rejected Jesus as their Messiah because they were looking for a messiah to rescue them in a more militaristic way. By rejecting Jesus - they were not a part of "the People of God" any longer. They rejected the messages from all the prophets and were cut off. Those who are cut off and cast out are unbelievers....or Gentiles.

Acts 3:23
Everyone who does not listen to Him will be completely cut off from among His people.’​

 

[mkgal1]

Read all teh posts. there is enormous evidence if you care to do a little work.

I've read them. All I've seen are empty opinions that lack support.

 

[nolidad]

My argument and yours begin at two separate starting points. Those who have the belief that the New Covenant is left unfulfilled rely on that one word "ALL" to hold their framework together. Never was it prophesied that ALL those in the Mosaic covenant would accept Christ....otherwise verses like this wouldn't appear in our Scriptures:

Well if by all you mean every Jew that ever lived in all ages? Then I agree.

But I also believe that at a point in time all Jews alive on earth are going to be saved as the new Covenant.in Jeremish 31 and Zechariah 13 and Ezekiel 20 says WILL happen.

My point was the Zealots had rejected Jesus as their Messiah because they were looking for a messiah to rescue them in a more militaristic way. By rejecting Jesus - they were not a part of "the People of God" any longer. They rejected the messages from all the prophets and were cut off. Those who are cut off and cast out are unbelievers....or Gentiles.

When you added the word Gentile- you made your whole statement incorrect. They are to be treated LIKE the Gentiles (or heathen) but they are still Jews! You just can't get around that fact. They do nto lose their Jewishness because of being unbelievers.

I've read them. All I've seen are empty opinions that lack support.

So you consider Scriptures as empty opinions and not things used for support? Okay then.

But let me repeat them again to show that all Israel will be saved in a point of time> Sorry if I use Scripture that you say is not support.

Zechariah 13:8-9
King James Version

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

Ezekiel 20:33-38
King James Version

33 As I live, saith the Lord God, surely with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out, will I rule over you:

34 And I will bring you out from the people, and will gather you out of the countries wherein ye are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with a stretched out arm, and with fury poured out.

35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the people, and there will I plead with you face to face.

36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.

37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Jeremiah 31:31-34
King James Version

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Romans 11:25-29
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

As I have explained many times here, that ALL Israel is the one third that survive the Tribulation who will have the vale removed from their eyes and cry out blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

 

[jgr]

As I have explained many times here, that ALL Israel is the one third that survive the Tribulation who will have the vale removed from their eyes and cry out blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!

That will include Judas, Caiaphas, and the Jewish leaders, as it was they who pierced Him.

Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

Notwithstanding John 17:12.

 

[mkgal1]

Well if by all you mean every Jew that ever lived in all ages? Then I agree.

But I also believe that at a point in time all Jews alive on earth are going to be saved as the new Covenant.in Jeremish 31 and Zechariah 13 and Ezekiel 20 says WILL happen.

Israel was an OT type that pointed to the True Israel of God that was fulfilled through Christ Jesus and His followers - the Church.
Typology is an eye-opening study.

Quoting linked article:
following article on the typology of Scripture by William G. Moorehead is reproduced from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, ed. James Orr (Chicago: Howard-Severance Co., 1930), vol. 5, pp. 3029-3030.

A generation ago a widespread interest in the study of typology prevailed; latterly the interest has largely subsided, chiefly because of the vagaries and extravagances which attended its treatment on the part of not a few writers. Pressing the typical teaching of Scripture so far as to imperil the historical validity of God's word is both dangerous and certain to be followed by reaction and neglect of the subject.

"Typology of Scripture, by William G. Moorehead" Typology of Scripture, by William G. Moorehead​

 

[nolidad]

Israel was an OT type that pointed to the True Israel of God that was fulfilled through Christ Jesus and His followers - the Church.
Typology is an eye-opening study.

Quoting linked article:
following article on the typology of Scripture by William G. Moorehead is reproduced from The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, ed. James Orr (Chicago: Howard-Severance Co., 1930), vol. 5, pp. 3029-3030.

A generation ago a widespread interest in the study of typology prevailed; latterly the interest has largely subsided, chiefly because of the vagaries and extravagances which attended its treatment on the part of not a few writers. Pressing the typical teaching of Scripture so far as to imperil the historical validity of God's word is both dangerous and certain to be followed by reaction and neglect of the subject.

"Typology of Scripture, by William G. Moorehead" Typology of Scripture, by William G. Moorehead​

According to William Moorehead. But According to God Israel is Israel and the church is the church!

Teh feasts and articles in the temple and the passover were types and shadows but Israel as a people and nation are not.

Moorehead is just another replacement theology guy.

But lets give him the benefit of the doubt.

How does he know he pegged his new definitions right?

Who told him?

What is His authority to just void all the unfulfilled promises God said He would fulfill to the twelve tribes, and somehow "spiritually transfer" them to the church?

To quote Moorehead:

"Second, the undue contraction of the typical element. "Professor Moses Stuart expresses this view as follows: "Just so much of the Old Testament is to be accounted typical as the New Testament affirms to be so, and no more." This opinion assumes that the New Testament writers have exhausted the types of the Old Testament, while the fact is that those found in the later Scripture are but samples taken from the storehouse where many more are found."

this is such a subjective thing as to raise a red flag in any serious student of SCripture. this kind of "freedom" is how cults are formed. It leaves to the author and those they convince what can be a type or not!

I prefer what He wrote in the beginning of this quote as the most accurate. "Just so much of the OT is to be accounted typical as the NT affirms to be so and no more!"

God used Paul et. al to write the NT and I don't see Moorhead's name on the list! That is not to say He is wrong- but that is not to say he is right either. what measuring stick is there in the world to measure the accuracy of what he supposedly pulls out of that "storehouse".

 

[BABerean2]

But According to God Israel is Israel and the church is the church!

"...and never the twain shall meet". Clarence Larkin


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


.

 

[nolidad]

"...and never the twain shall meet". Clarence Larkin


Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Rom 11:2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
Rom 11:3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
Rom 11:4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
Jas 1:2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
Jas 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


.

YOu are starting to get things right now.

 

[BABerean2]

YOu are starting to get things right now.

I am surprised you like me showing Clarence Larkin was wrong, but I am glad to hear it.


.

 

[nolidad]

I am surprised you like me showing Clarence Larkin was wrong, but I am glad to hear it.


.

Well one presupposition you had of me smashed, lots more to go!

Clarence Larkin was in the early throes of recapturing "dispensational thought" from the apostasy of Augustines allegorical interpretations. I have three of his books. I love them for their thought processes, but He does have a lot of (to be nice) different ideas that have long been rejected.

Just as allegorical interpretations took time to be thought through and established, so didn't "dispensational interpretation" take time to grow and mature. After all it was hidden under the weight of allegory for over a millenia!

I held no opinion when I first got saved. but after I started studying and researching the two theologies (all theologies branch from either dispensation or allegorical)

I came to the conclusion that the dispensational method of understanding SCripture with its literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture was by far the best hermeneutic there was. Once I settled that, it became easy to take the prophecies and eschatological passages in a very smooth flowing framework of understanding. A few years after that I bought Larkins books (they are very pricey) then Pentecosts book "Things to come". Even though these were men of great renown, I had some disagreements with them in some thoughts, but their hermenutic was very sound.

 

[BABerean2]

Well one presupposition you had of me smashed, lots more to go!

Clarence Larkin was in the early throes of recapturing "dispensational thought" from the apostasy of Augustines allegorical interpretations. I have three of his books. I love them for their thought processes, but He does have a lot of (to be nice) different ideas that have long been rejected.

Just as allegorical interpretations took time to be thought through and established, so didn't "dispensational interpretation" take time to grow and mature. After all it was hidden under the weight of allegory for over a millenia!

I held no opinion when I first got saved. but after I started studying and researching the two theologies (all theologies branch from either dispensation or allegorical)

I came to the conclusion that the dispensational method of understanding SCripture with its literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture was by far the best hermeneutic there was. Once I settled that, it became easy to take the prophecies and eschatological passages in a very smooth flowing framework of understanding. A few years after that I bought Larkins books (they are very pricey) then Pentecosts book "Things to come". Even though these were men of great renown, I had some disagreements with them in some thoughts, but their hermenutic was very sound.

I read Dr. Dwight Pentecost's book "Things to Come", because it was recommended by one of my past Sunday School teachers, who was a graduate of Dallas Theological. That was when my wife and I attended a local Bible Church.

I was surprised to see Pentecost believed there would be a return to the Old Covenant sacrificial system during a future time.
Like some here, he ignored Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24.


.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I read Dr. Dwight Pentecost's book "Things to Come", because it was recommended by one of my past Sunday School teachers, who was a graduate of Dallas Theological. That was when my wife and I attended a local Bible Church.

I was surprised to see Pentecost believed there would be a return to the Old Covenant sacrificial system during a future time.
Like some here, he ignored Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24.


.

It is just unbelievable to me that anyone would believe God would ever want to return to the inferior old covenant sacrificial system after He had His Son make the ultimate sacrifice "once for all" to establish the new covenant.

Why would God want to ruin what His Son accomplished by establishing the "better covenant" (Heb 8:6) only to go backwards to the old covenant again? Honestly, that would make God out to be a fool and we all know that He's not a fool.