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mkgal1

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YOu are starting to get things right now.

I am surprised you like me showing Clarence Larkin was wrong, but I am glad to hear it.


.

Well one presupposition you had of me smashed, lots more to go!

Clarence Larkin was in the early throes of recapturing "dispensational thought" from the apostasy of Augustines allegorical interpretations. I have three of his books. I love them for their thought processes, but He does have a lot of (to be nice) different ideas that have long been rejected.

Just as allegorical interpretations took time to be thought through and established, so didn't "dispensational interpretation" take time to grow and mature. After all it was hidden under the weight of allegory for over a millenia!

I held no opinion when I first got saved. but after I started studying and researching the two theologies (all theologies branch from either dispensation or allegorical)

I came to the conclusion that the dispensational method of understanding SCripture with its literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture was by far the best hermeneutic there was. Once I settled that, it became easy to take the prophecies and eschatological passages in a very smooth flowing framework of understanding. A few years after that I bought Larkins books (they are very pricey) then Pentecosts book "Things to come". Even though these were men of great renown, I had some disagreements with them in some thoughts, but their hermenutic was very sound.
How else is a person supposed to interpret the quote, "You are starting to get things right now" if not an agreement of a post? I don't see that as presuming anything because it was based on evidence presented and not a presupposition.
 
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keras

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I was surprised to see Pentecost believed there would be a return to the Old Covenant sacrificial system during a future time.
Like some here, he ignored Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24.
It is just unbelievable to me that anyone would believe God would ever want to return to the inferior old covenant sacrificial system after He had His Son make the ultimate sacrifice "once for all" to establish the new covenant.
You both show a lack of reading the prophesies about the new Temple and how God will require offerings and purification sacrifices again.
Prophesies like Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 20:40-41 and Ezekiel 45 and 46.

Adamantly rejecting any more offerings or sacrifices, is wrong as God wanted them before and He will again.
You do not know the Mind of God.
 
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BABerean2

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You both show a lack of reading the prophesies about the new Temple and how God will require offerings and purification sacrifices again.
Prophesies like Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 20:40-41 and Ezekiel 45 and 46.

Adamantly rejecting any more offerings or sacrifices, is wrong as God wanted them before and He will again.


Either the author of the Book of Hebrews is confused, or you are confused.


Christ's Sacrifice Once for All (from eSword)

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Heb 10:15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.


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BABerean2

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It is just unbelievable to me that anyone would believe God would ever want to return to the inferior old covenant sacrificial system after He had His Son make the ultimate sacrifice "once for all" to establish the new covenant.

Why would God want to ruin what His Son accomplished by establishing the "better covenant" (Heb 8:6) only to go backwards to the old covenant again? Honestly, that would make God out to be a fool and we all know that He's not a fool.


I have come to understand one of the greatest errors of modern Christianity is the lack of understanding about the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

The battle between these two covenants began in Acts chapter 15 and continues to the present time.
During most of that time the Judaisers have won the day.

Act 15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, "You must be circumcised and keep the law"—to whom we gave no such commandment—

We have not come to Mount Sinai in Hebrews 12:18, but have come instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion in Hebrews 12:22-24.
How could the text be any clearer?


I greatly appreciate you and others here who have the courage to speak the truth.


.
 
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jgr

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You both show a lack of reading the prophesies about the new Temple and how God will require offerings and purification sacrifices again.
Prophesies like Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 20:40-41 and Ezekiel 45 and 46.

Adamantly rejecting any more offerings or sacrifices, is wrong as God wanted them before and He will again.
You do not know the Mind of God.

Will Jesus be the foreman overseeing the sacrifices in the temple abattoir?
Or will it be His Father God?
Or will they share the duties?
How many lambs will the Lamb of God need to slaughter daily to meet your quota?
Scripture, please.
 
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Timtofly

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Either the author of the Book of Hebrews is confused, or you are confused.


Christ's Sacrifice Once for All (from eSword)

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Heb 10:11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins.
Heb 10:12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God,
Heb 10:13 from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.
Heb 10:15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
Heb 10:16 "THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD: I WILL PUT MY LAWS INTO THEIR HEARTS, AND IN THEIR MINDS I WILL WRITE THEM,"
Heb 10:17 then He adds, "THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE."
Heb 10:18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin.
Is the Atonement to remove sin or is the Atonement to remove the Law?

The Law was just rules. The sacrifices did not remove sin. The sacrifices removed the punishment for breaking the Law.

The Atonement was for sin. Having a future law without sin does not need sin to make it stronger. It was the Law that made sin stronger. An iron rule can have a Law and sacrifices and have nothing to do with sin at all. Sin existed prior to the Law, so neither need each other. Sin did not need the Law, the Law just made sin stronger. The Law does not need sin, it only is a set of rules.

12 Here is how it works: it was through one individual that sin entered the world, and through sin, death; and in this way death passed through to the whole human race, inasmuch as everyone sinned.
13 Sin was indeed present in the world before Torah was given, but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah.
14 Nevertheless death ruled from Adam until Moshe, even over those whose sinning was not exactly like Adam’s violation of a direct command. In this, Adam prefigured the one who was to come.

Adam violated a direct command prior to sin. Paul said death ruled over those before the Law and sin was different than Adam's disobedience. Why does the Torah change things (but sin is not counted as such when there is no Torah)? Because death was a natural occurrence at any time. The Law gave humans a right to punishment, even death, allegedly before one's naturally appointed time. The strength of sin by the Law was death, or an economy of control (sacrifices). Humans could use the Law to control sin and others because they naturally sinned. Thus compounding sin.

Take away sin. There is still control and a Law, and the economy of a law, sacrifices. Death is determined by God, who knows even the thoughts we have. Incorruptible bodies, does not preclude no one can think any more. Incorruptible bodies are there because no more decay and death. Sin is removed to remove the slave aspect nature of sin. Christ is the ruler, because, no mention of human thought police. The natural tendency would be to avoid even rebellion in one's thoughts. Why is rebellion as the sin of witchcraft?

“Does Adonai take as much pleasure
in burnt offerings and sacrifices
as in obeying what Adonai says?
Surely obeying is better than sacrifice,
and heeding orders than the fat of rams."

“For rebellion is like the sin of sorcery,
stubbornness like the crime of idolatry.
Because you have rejected the word of Adonai,
he too has rejected you as king.”

The literal interpretation is Saul made the excuse of his disobedience to make a sacrifice. The point is still clear. Obedience is better than the sin the sacrifice covers. Rebellion is not a sin in as much as breaking a single law. Obedience is much better than sin and breaking a law, thus avoiding the sacrifice altogether. Witchcraft is giving one's self to Satan to thwart the whole Law itself.

Yes the Atonement did away with the Law, in regards to the economy. It even covered sin and the punishment of death. That does not mean God cannot remove sin, and have 1,000 years of life without sin. Nor will having a Law and sacrifices change the fact sin is gone or needed.

Remember Cain and Abel in the Garden? Sacrifices did not atone for sin, there was no sin. It was outside the door. They were an offering to God, without sin as a factor. A limited economy where Cain could have made a trade with Abel and offered up the same sacrifices.

Revelation 7:15

“Day and night they serve him in his Temple"

What is the service in a Temple? This is the Garden of Eden. There is still an alter there.

Who is claiming God is bringing back the Law of Moses? That is no longer necessary, because we have the Law of Christ, even with an iron rod. The Law of Moses only worked under sin.
 
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keras

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Either the author of the Book of Hebrews is confused, or you are confused.
You don't address the scriptures I provided. Why?
Will Jesus be the foreman overseeing the sacrifices in the temple abattoir?
Or will it be His Father God?
Or will they share the duties?
How many lambs will the Lamb of God need to slaughter daily to meet your quota?
Scripture, please.
Ezekiel 46:1-15 says it will be the ruler of people living in all of the holy Land then.
Isaiah 56:7 says it will be the faithful foreigner's who make offerings on the Altar.

Why must you make such snide remarks?
Do you know the Mind of God; what He wants of us?
 
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BABerean2

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You don't address the scriptures I provided. Why?

Why?

Because your interpretation of those passages from the Old Testament must agree with the words recorded by the author of the Book of Hebrews.

If you think the author of the Book of Hebrews is wrong, it is your responsibility to explain why.


Luk 24:25 Then He said to them, "O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
Luk 24:26 Ought not the Christ to have suffered these things and to enter into His glory?"
Luk 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.


.
 
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keras

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Because your interpretation of those passages from the Old Testament must agree with the words recorded by the author of the Book of Hebrews.
You both show a lack of reading the prophesies about the new Temple and how God will require offerings and purification sacrifices again.
Prophesies like Isaiah 56:1-8, Ezekiel 20:40-41 and Ezekiel 45 and 46.

Adamantly rejecting any more offerings or sacrifices, is wrong as God wanted them before and He will again.
You do not know the Mind of God.
The scriptures that prophecy a new Temple and how offerings and sacrifices will be made in it, are plain statements. not interpretation.
There is also the prophesies of Zechariah 14:20-21 and Daniel 11:31, 2 Thess 2:4, plus others that prove there will be a new Temple and there will be sacrifices and offerings made in it. This does not negate Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins.

This truth may seem wrong to you, but remember God's ways are not our ways.
 
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DavidPT

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Something I would like to point out here involving the 70 weeks, is this.

Daniel 12:5 Then I Daniel looked, and, behold, there stood other two, the one on this side of the bank of the river, and the other on that side of the bank of the river.
6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Verse 7 indicates---it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Anyone that has read the book of Revelation should immediately think of the following.

Revelation 10:4 And when the seven thunders had uttered their voices, I was about to write: and I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Seal up those things which the seven thunders uttered, and write them not.
5 And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6 And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:
7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Compare verse 6 and 7 with verse 7 in Daniel 12. Unless one wants to claim the 7th trumpet has already sounded, one can't then claim Daniel 12:7 has already been entirely fulfilled. One needs to keep this in mind when it comes to a possible connection of the 70 weeks and that of, a time, times, and an half. One can't then claim the entire 70 weeks have been fulfilled if the, a time, times, and an half, per Daniel 12:7 hasn't been entirely fulfilled. That would be like arguing that Daniel 12:7 has already been entirely fulfilled but that Revelation 10:7 hasn't. That would be a contradiction.
 
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Timtofly

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Are you claiming there was no sin during the time of Cain and Abel?
The time has nothing to do with it. They were in the Garden in the presence of God. There was no sin in the Garden ever. The sin was in the world after Adam disobeyed God in the one command God gave to Adam.
 
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BABerean2

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The time has nothing to do with it. They were in the Garden in the presence of God. There was no sin in the Garden ever. The sin was in the world after Adam disobeyed God in the one command God gave to Adam.


Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—
Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.


.
 
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nolidad

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I read Dr. Dwight Pentecost's book "Things to Come", because it was recommended by one of my past Sunday School teachers, who was a graduate of Dallas Theological. That was when my wife and I attended a local Bible Church.

I was surprised to see Pentecost believed there would be a return to the Old Covenant sacrificial system during a future time.
Like some here, he ignored Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and Hebrews 12:18-24.


.

There will be a return to many of the OT sacrifices as the bible declares will be during the millennial kingdom. Just not the sin offering.

Levites have a role: Ez. 44:9-14
Sons of Zadok Ez. 44:15-31 will be in charge of the sacrifices
Is. 56:6-7 speak of the sacrifices in the millenial temple
Is. 60:7, Is. 66:18-23, Jer.35:18, Mal.3:3-4, Zech. 14:16-21 all speak of millenial temple sacrifices
 
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Christian Gedge

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One can't then claim the entire 70 weeks have been fulfilled if the, a time, times, and an half, per Daniel 12:7 hasn't been entirely fulfilled.

People make an assumption when they try to hook every mention of a 'time, times, and an half a time' into one same event. You need to remember that the term is a repeating calendar formula. It occurred at the beginning of each seven-year cycle. (1260 days occurred at the end.)

So, when we come across this term we have to check whether we are in the same prophecy. In the case of Daniel he compiled a series of prophecies at different times and only chapter 9 was about the 70th week.
 
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nolidad

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How else is a person supposed to interpret the quote, "You are starting to get things right now" if not an agreement of a post? I don't see that as presuming anything because it was based on evidence presented and not a presupposition.

Well He already had a presuppositional bias about dispensationalists and a basic stereotype formed in his mind (we all do in some measure). But we had not discussed Larkin in specific, but he just assumed that because I hold to dispensational eschatology, I must believe in Larkin and probably everything Darby said as well. When He didn't know what I did ore did not believe concerning teh writings of Larkin in specifics.
 
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DavidPT

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In the case o f Daniel he compiled a series of prophecies at different times and only chapter 9 was about the 70th week.


I agree that Daniel compiled a series of prophecies at different times, since that is obvious. I disagree that only ch 9 involves the 70th week.
 
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nolidad

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People make an assumption when they try to hook every mention of a 'time, times, and an half a time' into one same event. You need to remember that the term is a repeating calendar formula. It occurred at the beginning of each seven-year cycle. (1260 days occurred at the end.)

So, when we come across this term we have to check whether we are in the same prophecy. In the case of Daniel he compiled a series of prophecies at different times and only chapter 9 was about the 70th week.

YOur cite for it being a repeating calendar formula?

And yes we always need to look at the prophecies carefully. Loose looking has prioduced mid trib, post trib, and amillenial views of eschatology. But AFAIK 1260 days and all teh biblical ways it is written to connote 3 1/2 years all refer to the sewocnd half of Daniels' 70th week.
 
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BABerean2

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There will be a return to many of the OT sacrifices as the bible declares will be during the millennial kingdom. Just not the sin offering.

Levites have a role: Ez. 44:9-14
Sons of Zadok Ez. 44:15-31 will be in charge of the sacrifices
Is. 56:6-7 speak of the sacrifices in the millenial temple
Is. 60:7, Is. 66:18-23, Jer.35:18, Mal.3:3-4, Zech. 14:16-21 all speak of millenial temple sacrifices

Why is it that I cannot find the word "millennial" in any of the passages you provided?

Why is it that Jesus and the New Testament authors do not talk about the return to Old Testament sacrifices?

Was Paul confused in the passage below?

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.


Why is that you cannot find the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6?


.
 
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Timtofly

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Gen 3:22 Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"—
Gen 3:23 therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.
No sin in the Garden of Eden.
 
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