7 seals of Revelation - Bible study LIVE
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tranquil
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Doug said:
I never said the "tribulation" is 7 years.
Everything fits within the 7 years.
Everything fits within the 7 years.
Exactly.
Where in bible prophecy are you finding the winter solstice? And why are you referring to the American day of Independence? And what has bible prophecy got to do with Trump's inauguration day?
Winter solstice
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
Don't you read the news? this is playing out right now.
The US is Babylon, Trump is Lucifer, the king of Babyon. The Declaration of Independence is the covenant with Death and hell, that is destroyed so as to create the Jewish messiah, the false prophet. It is part of the strong delusion to convince people that the false prophet is from God.
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Douggg
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Thanks for the very clear explanation of where you are coming from. I don't think you are right on any of it. But you did clarify.
Trump is Lucifer?
tranquil, do you live in the U.S. ? If so, given your interpretation, shouldn't you be leaving?
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Douggg
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Being in the Netherlands, you guys are right next door to Brussels, the EU.
Being that close to the center of action, and more familiar with EU political figures than us in the states, do you know of any Jewish person who could eventually move to the top of the EU?
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Revealing Times
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Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.
John the Baptist was not Elijah the Prophet, he was just the likeness of Elijah. The Prophet Malachi says that Elijah will be sent back before the Great a TERRIBLE DAY of the Lord. (Day of the Lord) which is a 3.5 year period of Gods Wrath. This can be nothing but an end time event.
Thanks, I was wondering why that Scripture didn't highlight blue where you can bring the scripture up. But no, I meant Zechariah 12:10.
Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zechariah 13:1 In that day (What day? The day they REPENT see Zech. 12:10) there shall be a fountain (Blood of Jesus) opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zechariah chapter 14 is where the Anti-Christ conquers Jerusalem in verse 1 and 2, and verses 3 and 4 is Jesus landing on the Mt of Olives and defeating the Ant-Christ Beast at Armageddon. So Israel REPENTS BEFORE the Great and Terrible DAY OF THE LORD !!
The 1/3 are those that flee unto the Wilderness. Many Jews in far away lands will not be able to make it to Israel, they could repent and thus be Martyrs or they might be unbelievers still. Some Jews will chose to stay in Israel and will serve the Beast or be Killed. It has zero to do with believing Christians, the Church is in Heaven, the Remnant in Rev. 12:17 is cleary shown to be the Church, not the WOMAN (Israel) whom the Dragon via the Beast can not get at.
We are clearly shown who the Woman (ISRAEL) is in Genesis 37:9, go read it or click on it. The 1/3 who Flee unto the Wilderness is ALL ISRAEL, and just as Isaiah and Paul stated ALL ISRAEL, not all Jews but Israel as a Nation will be Saved/PRESERVED. God promised Abraham his seed would be around forever. So 2/3 of the Jews die, the 1/3 who go through the fire (accept Jesus and trust God) will be protected by God Himself (Eagles Wings).
Jesus Returns in Zechariah chapter 14 brother. Not in chapter 13.
We basically agree on the number. As per how they get there or what it means I am not so sure.
The Church is in Heaven brother. You guys that can't get the Rapture right are always going to be on the wrong side of Eschatology. There are the REPENTED JEWS and the REMNANT CHURCH. They are shown side by side in Rev. 12:17 !! The Woman the Dragon via the Beast CAN NOT GET AT, and those that keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus Christ, the REMNANT of the Church which is in Heaven. (of course)
It means all who purge themselves in the Blood of the Lamb. The Church in Heaven, the Remnant of the Church on Earth and the Jews who accept Jesus as their Messiah, after the Rapture and before the Day of the Lord.
Israel never accepts a false messiah, that is total bunk not supported by scriptures anywhere. Its just made up bunk, sorry.
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Jesus was saying John came in the spirit of Elijah, and that's good enough for me. It serves as an update to how that Malachi 4 verse would be fulfilled.
Zech 12:9-10
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
KJV
Even with that Zech.12:10 verse, it is for after... Christ has returned. The Zech.12:9 verse is for the event of Christ's returning, about the battle of Armageddon on the 7th Vial which Jesus fights when He comes "as a thief" per Rev.16. That's the events of Ezek.39 with the final battle of this world. Zech.12:10 is when the unbelieving Jews will realize what they had done in falling to the pseudo-messiah, and they will be in shame. Jesus also explained this about the deceived Jews in Jerusalem after His return in Luke 23:27-30.
Wrong! You are trying to add to God's Word something which is not written there...
Zech 14:1
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
KJV
That 1st verse is "day of the Lordl" timing, and that is the day when Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord" to fight the armies surrounding Jerusalem on the last day of this world. The spoil being talked about is the spoil of the deceived Jews there who will have allowed the false idol worship there.
No, the Church is NOT... in Heaven for that time of the pseudo-Christ appearing in Jerusalem for the end. Apostle Paul made this order of the false one coming first and then Jesus' coming and gathering of the Church very clear in the 2 Thessalonians 2 chapter.
The Rev.12:6 verse of the first half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" is about spiritual protection with God's servants in Christ Jesus being sealed by The Holy Spirit against false worship to the false messiah. It is not about a literal fleeing anymore than flying on literal wings of an eagle for the latter 1260 day period of Rev.12:14.
The remnant of Rev.12:17 is the remnant of Christ's elect that will not be deceived by the coming pseudo-Christ. They are the ones Jesus was speaking of in the Matthew 24:23-26 verses that if possible, would be deceived. It will not... be possible to deceive His elect. So the only way this can apply is about those of Christ's Church on earth, whether believing Jews or believing Gentile. Those are not about the orthodox unbelieving Jew who will be deceived to antichrist in that time, an idea you keep trying to add to God's Word, saying the unbelieving Jews won't be deceived, which does not work.
I'm well aware of Gen.37 with what Joseph dreamed to define those Rev.12:1 symbols for Israel. What you have obviously missed is the scattering of the 'majority' of the seed of Israel among the Gentiles, and The Gospel of Jesus Christ having been preached to them, and thus fulfilling the Gen.48 prophecy about Ephraim's seed becoming "a multitude of nations" (i.e., Christian nations).
This is why Apostle Paul quoted from Hosea when preaching to Gentile Roman Christians (Rom.9). If you look, the Book of Hosea was primarily given to the ten tribed house of Israel after the old split of Israel in 1 Kings 11. It wasn't to Gentiles. Yet Paul included the end of Hosea 1 when preaching to Gentile Romans in Christ Jesus. It means... Paul recognized the joining of believing Israel and believing Gentiles as one in Christ's Church, and the ultimate standing of Israel is like others here have said, it's about Christ's Church. (Israel is the Salvation name, it's about the overcomers in Christ Jesus. Bloodline lineage is not enough. All... must come to Christ Jesus to be saved, even Jews).
You're in error. Zech.13:1-2 is particularly about Millennium timing. Jerusalem will not be cleansed from idols and false worship until the day Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord". The OT prophets often do not cover events chronologically. One must always pay attention to the type of events being mentioned. In this Christ's Revelation is written in much the same way as the OT prophets, lot's of timeline jumping around.
I don't adhere to a pre-trib rapture of the Church. I don't see that idea written anywhere in God's Word. What I see is just the opposite, that Jesus comes to gather His Church on the last day of this world to end the tribulation. That is the last sign He gave in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13. There He showed the gathering of His Church would be after the time of tribulation He was teaching there. The Matt.24:29-31 verses are about His gathering of the 'asleep' saints of 1 Thess.4, and the Mark 13:24-27 verses are about the gathering of His Church on earth, i.e., those who remain which are "caught up" per Paul in 1 Thess.4.
The remnant in NT doctrine refers to those whom God preordained and preserved per Romans 11...
Rom 11:4-5
4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? "I have reserved to Myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal."
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
KJV
The Apostles who believed on Jesus Christ were part of that remnant on earth. Today it means the remnant of ALL TWELVE TRIBES that have believed on Jesus Christ. So how many could that be today? Well, though the ten northern tribes of Israel were scattered and lost knowledge of their heritage like Hosea pointed to, it can mean billions today. Afterall, the Gen.48 prophecy to Ephraim's seed was that he would become "a multitude of nations"...
Gen 48:17-19
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
KJV
A multitude of nations obviously means more than one nation in the holy land. (Yet God covered that prophecy of the one nation Israel too in Gen.35 about Jacob's seed was to become "a nation, and a company of nations" - Gen.35:11). If you don't know who and where those "multitude of nations" and "company of nations" are today, which ALSO represent God's Israel today, then I can fathom why you're trying to apply a lot of these prophecies only to Judah (i.e., Jews - tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and some small remnants of the ten tribes who sided with Judah in Jeroboam's day - what God called "the house of Judah").
Well, yes they do. My hope is that it will be mostly the false Jews of the "synagogue of Satan" that will bow to the coming pseudo-Christ in Jerusalem. Many of those crept into Judah long ago, but they will be found out when Jesus returns (Judges 2 & 3; Zech.14:21; Matt.13:24-30; Jude 1:4).
But I know some of the unbelieving seed of Israel will... wrongly bow to the coming false messiah whom their leaders in Jerusalem will proclaim king of the world in that time. That is why those deceived will want for the hills and mountains to fall upon them, because of their shame when Jesus does show up. That is what the Luke 23:27-30 scripture is about. And it applies equally to those in Christ's Church who allowed themselves to be deceived in that time. So it's not just about Jerusalem and the Jews. The deception will apply upon all peoples and nations in that near future time. And Christ's Church will... still be here on earth. Might as well prepare your soul and spirit for it.
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claninja
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So the generation Jesus was talking to during the Olivet discourse did not see any false prophets, earthquakes, famines, persecutions, wars, or the destruction of the temple?
It was a future generation that would see this?
Did Jesus suffer under a future generation?
25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.
Luke 17:25
Was it a future generation of scribes and Pharisees that all the blood from Abel to Zechariah came upon?
36 Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
Matthew 23:36
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- Nov 25, 2017
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Shouldn't confuse Jesus talking to the blind Pharisees in Matt.23 vs. talking to His disciples in Matt.24 about the events of the end of this present world.
Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?"
KJV
Doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand the timing Jesus' disciples asked Him about in that above verse. Trying to say that word "world" only means at the end of 'their' generation doesn't work either simply because the event of Christ Jesus' return was included in their question.
And the very last sign Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse of Matt.24 is about the sign of His 2nd coming (Matt.24:29-31).
Then He reveals the generation era when those signs will occur being the final generation of this world. That's common sense too, because this present world time will end with Christ's return as written in both the OT prophets and in the NT.
So then, it is impossible for the generation era of His disciples that were on the Mount of Olives with Him to be that final generation, simply because this present world time did not end as prophesied to occur on the still future "day of the Lord" which will come "as a thief in the night" (2 Pet.3:10; 1 Thess.5; Rev.16:15).
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Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:
Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.
Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)
Luk 21:5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,
Luk 21:6 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."
(Mat 24:2 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )
Luk 21:7 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"
(Mat 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")
( Mar 13:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,
Mar 13:4 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")
Luk 21:8 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.
(Mat 24:5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )
Luk 21:9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."
(Mat 24:6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)
Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution
Luk 21:10 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
(Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )
Luk 21:11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
(Mat 24:7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )
Luk 21:12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
(Mat 24:9 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)
Luk 21:13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.
Luk 21:14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;
Luk 21:15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.
Luk 21:16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.
Luk 21:17 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.
(Mat 24:10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )
Luk 21:18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.
Luk 21:19 By your patience possess your souls.
(Mat 24:13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)
Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem
Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
(Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.
(Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)
Luk 21:22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 21:23 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
(Mat 24:19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )
Luk 21:24 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)
The Coming of the Son of Man
Luk 21:25 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;
(Mat 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)
Luk 21:26 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
Luk 21:27 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
(Mat 24:30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)
Luk 21:28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."
(Mat 24:33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)
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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7
"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].
7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "
Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.
John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.
The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.
Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the same reference to flee in the second verse in each Gospel.
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Long post, but I got time...
Alas, but one can't come to the Truth in God's Word by just considering one scripture example of an event when The Lord gave more than one...
Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?
KJV
If it weren't for that Matt.24:3 version of the question, you might have had some validity to your argument, all three passages between Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 must be considered together, not separately. But the signs He was giving there also parallel the signs He gave in His Revelation through John in approximately 96 A.D. while John was in prison on the Isle of Patmos.
When Jesus said not one stone upon another, that can serve as a dual fulfillment prophecy just like Antiochus served as a partial fulfillment of Dan.11 and the abomination of desolation. The difference is that some prophetic parameters will lack being fulfilled in a dual application. Today in Jerusalem the Wailing Wall stones from the old temple complex are still standing. In final, there won't be ANY stones standing on top of another there on the future "day of the Lord" with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth per 2 Peter 3:10. A destruction from The Almighty is coming on that day, and it's going to be very complete.
No, no, no... can't make that Matt.24:3 word for "world" say "age" just because you want to apply it to the Apostles' generation only per your doctrine from men. That Greek word aion is used to apply to this world, the old world, or the world to come in the manuscripts. What defines its timing is the phrase there of, "And what will be the sign of Your coming," thus pointing to the very end of this present world. So trying to apply the idea of the end of the Apostle's day to that will not fit, and is a far reach by men's doctrines.
The Mark 13 version doesn't really give the specific timing Matt.24 does. No brainer. We still must include the specific detail in Matt.24 that does give the timing of these events. God often does this in His Word to see if we're paying attention and discipline ourselves in all of it. He wants us to study and heed all of His Word, not just pick and choose.
Yeah, the parallel to the very 1st Seal of Rev.6 about the rider on the white horse that tries to mimic Jesus' coming on a white horse in Rev.19. Don't let any man deceive you He warned.
Yes, the 2nd Seal, a red horse, a war horse. As long as wars are going on, the very end (i.e., the tribulation time), is not yet. Wars did not end in 70 A.D. which ought to be a huge clue.
The 3rd & 4th Seals - world commerce/inflation, to kill over the fourth part of the earth.
The 5th Seal of Rev.6 - the slain saints in heaven told to wait until their brethren on earth likewise are slain as they were for giving a Witness of Christ Jesus. You might want to get a copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs; there have been many more since Stephen. In the future time of great tribulation, there will be more delivered up and slain for giving a Witness of Christ Jesus.
These above verses all go together about the 5th Seal of Rev.6. In Acts 2, Peter showed that on Pentecost day, the cloven tongue spoken was but an example which was prophesied in Joel 2 for the end ("this is that..."). By pointing back to Joel he was showing the cloven tongue is especially an event meant for the very end of this world, and that Pentecost day then was but an example.
In Rev.11 is the example God's two witnesses who are to prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days, and once they are killed there all nations will see their dead bodies lay in the street, which points to technology only available in the the 21st century. So this 5th Seal event is not yet today. In that definition of God's two witnesses are two candlesticks. The candlesticks represent the Churches per Jesus in Rev.1. So two of the 7 Churches are involved in that witness for the very end of this world.
This Luke 21:20 verse gives us a sign of the end which Matt.24 and Mark 13 didn't. The final siege of Jerusalem surrounded by armies is set for the last day of this world on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes with His army from heaven.
Zeph 3:8
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
KJV
Ezek 38:15-16
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against My people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against My land, that the heathen may know Me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
KJV
Joel 3:2
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted My land.
KJV
Joel 3:9-14
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
KJV
Zech 14:1-3
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
KJV
All those OT examples are for the final battle on the last day of this world when Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord".
The "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of an idol in the temple at Jerusalem. Antiochus IV already did it once back in 165 B.C. serving as a blueprint. This final one will be the "image of the beast" mentioned in Rev.13. The other blueprint is what the king of Babylon did in Daniel's day with forcing all to bow to a golden image of himself.
This Luke 21:22 verse reveals the very end. That "days of vengeance" is a direct pointer to Isaiah 61...
Isa 61:1-2
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
KJV
Jesus quoted that above in blue at the start of His Ministry per Luke 4. Then He closed the Book. He did not read that part in red because that is for His return, His second coming. That "day of vengeance of our God" is set for the "day of the Lord" when Jesus will come "as a thief in the night".
I'm not going to go into detail about that idea of being pregnant with child in that time, because it requires one to understand the Isaiah 54 scripture which I find few have bothered to study.
Yes, and that fits the last days timing because "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" is the condition made there. When does that time end per God's Word? You basically said it - On the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus returns. So you cannot just say that proves all the previous scripture was fulfilled at 70 A.D.
All those examples point directly to the sign of Jesus' second coming, even as you yourself have said. That was the last sign He gave there which parallels the 6th Seal in Rev.6. That certainly didn't happen in the Apostle's day.
Concerning Josephus what you emphasized, his witness is only about the partial fulfillment of Dan.11 by Antiochus concerning the "abomination of desolation". Many years after Antiochus had been dead, our Lord Jesus quoted the "abomination of desolation" warning from Daniel. So how could Antiochus have truly fulfilled that since Jesus warned of it in His Olivet Discourse later after Antiochus had been dead???
Because Antiochus 'almost' fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" to a tee in 165 B.C., he serves as a blueprint example our Lord has given us. It shows a dual fulfillment type of prophecy can exist in God's Word. When looking at what God's two witnesses are to do at the end in Jerusalem, it shows a parallel to what God did through Moses and Aaron in Egypt. What the king of Babylon did in Daniel's days also has dual types for the end.
Alas, but one can't come to the Truth in God's Word by just considering one scripture example of an event when The Lord gave more than one...
Matt 24:3
3 And as He sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of Thy coming, and of the end of the world?
KJV
If it weren't for that Matt.24:3 version of the question, you might have had some validity to your argument, all three passages between Matt.24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 must be considered together, not separately. But the signs He was giving there also parallel the signs He gave in His Revelation through John in approximately 96 A.D. while John was in prison on the Isle of Patmos.
When Jesus said not one stone upon another, that can serve as a dual fulfillment prophecy just like Antiochus served as a partial fulfillment of Dan.11 and the abomination of desolation. The difference is that some prophetic parameters will lack being fulfilled in a dual application. Today in Jerusalem the Wailing Wall stones from the old temple complex are still standing. In final, there won't be ANY stones standing on top of another there on the future "day of the Lord" with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth per 2 Peter 3:10. A destruction from The Almighty is coming on that day, and it's going to be very complete.
No, no, no... can't make that Matt.24:3 word for "world" say "age" just because you want to apply it to the Apostles' generation only per your doctrine from men. That Greek word aion is used to apply to this world, the old world, or the world to come in the manuscripts. What defines its timing is the phrase there of, "And what will be the sign of Your coming," thus pointing to the very end of this present world. So trying to apply the idea of the end of the Apostle's day to that will not fit, and is a far reach by men's doctrines.
The Mark 13 version doesn't really give the specific timing Matt.24 does. No brainer. We still must include the specific detail in Matt.24 that does give the timing of these events. God often does this in His Word to see if we're paying attention and discipline ourselves in all of it. He wants us to study and heed all of His Word, not just pick and choose.
Yeah, the parallel to the very 1st Seal of Rev.6 about the rider on the white horse that tries to mimic Jesus' coming on a white horse in Rev.19. Don't let any man deceive you He warned.
Yes, the 2nd Seal, a red horse, a war horse. As long as wars are going on, the very end (i.e., the tribulation time), is not yet. Wars did not end in 70 A.D. which ought to be a huge clue.
The 3rd & 4th Seals - world commerce/inflation, to kill over the fourth part of the earth.
The 5th Seal of Rev.6 - the slain saints in heaven told to wait until their brethren on earth likewise are slain as they were for giving a Witness of Christ Jesus. You might want to get a copy of Foxe's Book of Martyrs; there have been many more since Stephen. In the future time of great tribulation, there will be more delivered up and slain for giving a Witness of Christ Jesus.
These above verses all go together about the 5th Seal of Rev.6. In Acts 2, Peter showed that on Pentecost day, the cloven tongue spoken was but an example which was prophesied in Joel 2 for the end ("this is that..."). By pointing back to Joel he was showing the cloven tongue is especially an event meant for the very end of this world, and that Pentecost day then was but an example.
In Rev.11 is the example God's two witnesses who are to prophesy in Jerusalem for 1260 days, and once they are killed there all nations will see their dead bodies lay in the street, which points to technology only available in the the 21st century. So this 5th Seal event is not yet today. In that definition of God's two witnesses are two candlesticks. The candlesticks represent the Churches per Jesus in Rev.1. So two of the 7 Churches are involved in that witness for the very end of this world.
This Luke 21:20 verse gives us a sign of the end which Matt.24 and Mark 13 didn't. The final siege of Jerusalem surrounded by armies is set for the last day of this world on the "day of the Lord" when Jesus comes with His army from heaven.
Zeph 3:8
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
KJV
Ezek 38:15-16
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against My people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against My land, that the heathen may know Me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
KJV
Joel 3:2
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted My land.
KJV
Joel 3:9-14
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
KJV
Zech 14:1-3
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when He fought in the day of battle.
KJV
All those OT examples are for the final battle on the last day of this world when Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord".
The "abomination of desolation" from the Book of Daniel is about the placing of an idol in the temple at Jerusalem. Antiochus IV already did it once back in 165 B.C. serving as a blueprint. This final one will be the "image of the beast" mentioned in Rev.13. The other blueprint is what the king of Babylon did in Daniel's day with forcing all to bow to a golden image of himself.
This Luke 21:22 verse reveals the very end. That "days of vengeance" is a direct pointer to Isaiah 61...
Isa 61:1-2
61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
KJV
Jesus quoted that above in blue at the start of His Ministry per Luke 4. Then He closed the Book. He did not read that part in red because that is for His return, His second coming. That "day of vengeance of our God" is set for the "day of the Lord" when Jesus will come "as a thief in the night".
I'm not going to go into detail about that idea of being pregnant with child in that time, because it requires one to understand the Isaiah 54 scripture which I find few have bothered to study.
Yes, and that fits the last days timing because "until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled" is the condition made there. When does that time end per God's Word? You basically said it - On the LAST DAY of this world when Jesus returns. So you cannot just say that proves all the previous scripture was fulfilled at 70 A.D.
All those examples point directly to the sign of Jesus' second coming, even as you yourself have said. That was the last sign He gave there which parallels the 6th Seal in Rev.6. That certainly didn't happen in the Apostle's day.
Concerning Josephus what you emphasized, his witness is only about the partial fulfillment of Dan.11 by Antiochus concerning the "abomination of desolation". Many years after Antiochus had been dead, our Lord Jesus quoted the "abomination of desolation" warning from Daniel. So how could Antiochus have truly fulfilled that since Jesus warned of it in His Olivet Discourse later after Antiochus had been dead???
Because Antiochus 'almost' fulfilled the "abomination of desolation" to a tee in 165 B.C., he serves as a blueprint example our Lord has given us. It shows a dual fulfillment type of prophecy can exist in God's Word. When looking at what God's two witnesses are to do at the end in Jerusalem, it shows a parallel to what God did through Moses and Aaron in Egypt. What the king of Babylon did in Daniel's days also has dual types for the end.
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It is a part of Roman Fort Antonia.
During 73 AD the Jewish leader at Masada said the only thing left of Jerusalem was that built by the Romans.
Recent findings by well-known Israeli Archeologist Eli Shukron have revealed a coin under the bottom layer of stones of "The Wailing Wall", which reveal it was built after Herod's temple.
The Jewish historian Josephus revealed that the Romans had built a fort beside of the Jewish temple to house the thousands of Roman soldiers needed to police the city of Jerusalem during the time of Christ.
The area now known as "The Temple Mount" is about the same size and shape of other Roman forts built during that time.
Read the recent book "Temple" by Robert Cornuke for more of the details.
See the link below for the evidence of these facts.
The Temple Mount and Fort Antonia
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claninja
Well-Known Member
This doesn't answer my question, so I will ask you again.
Did the generation Jesus was talking to experience persecution, famine, earthquakes, wars, false prophets, and the temple destruction? or was it not them, but a future generation some 2000 years later?
In order to understand the question the disciples posed to Jesus, we need to compare the gospels.
Matthew 24:3
“Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (**notice, end of the age, not end of the world is the correct translation)
=
Mark 13
Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?”
=
Luke 21:7
they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”
1. When will these things happen = when will the temple be destroyed
2. What will be the sign that it (temple destruction) is about to occur = sign of coming and end of the age
In no part of the text does Jesus begin to talk about a future generation.
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See my post #30. It answers your question, and in quite a bit of detail I'd say.
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claninja
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Sorry, didnt get the notification for post #30, as it wasn’t directed towards me. But I just read it now. I didn’t see where you answered any of my questions. So I’ll ask again and maybe you can quote what you posted In case I missed it. Does Jesus’ audience see persecution, earthquakes, famines, wars, false prophets, and the destruction of the temple....or is it a future generation?
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As I revealed in my post, in detail, the signs Jesus was giving in His Olivet Discourse are the signs of the Seals in Revelation 6, which are ONLY for the last generation on earth that will see His second coming.
Let's take your "wars" example. In His Olivet Discourse Jesus foretold us that when we hear of wars and rumors of wars, don't be troubled, because why? Because the end is NOT yet, which means when all wars have stopped, then be aware for that is the time of the end of this world, pointing to the final generation.
Have there been wars since Jesus foretold that? Most definitely, even two world wars! Are wars still going on today? Yes, the war on terrorists, it's still going on in primarily in Iraq and Afghanistan, and even some in our own backyard. The opposite of all that is a time of world peace, the reality of a global peace, and that is the kind of times Jesus was warning us about. It is the time of "Peace and safety" the deceived of 1 Thess.5 will be saying just before the "sudden destruction" comes on them at the "day of the Lord" when Jesus returns. All this takes that war sign way... past 70 A.D. and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
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You might want to catch up on the plans to build a third temple in Jerusalem in our days. If the orthodox Jews build that third temple, it means the startup of sacrifices and old covenant worship again.
The Temple Mount Faithful | Working to Rebuild the Temple on the Temple Mount
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You are still attempting to ignore the fact that part of the Olivet Discourse is about the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.
Luk 19:43 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,
("Compass" means surround.)
Luk 19:44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation.
Based on Daniel chapter 9 they should have known the timing of when the New Covenant Messiah would arrive.
Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
(The early Christians did flee the city before the final siege of 70 AD.)
Luk 21:24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of Luke 21:24 is about 70 AD.
Luke 21:25-28 refers to His future Second Coming, after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
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claninja
Well-Known Member
You are still being vague, so I’ll have to ask for some clarification.
So Jesus wasn’t telling his audience that they would see persecutions, wars, false prophets, earthquakes, famines, and the temple destruction?
It sounds like you are saying that all the time jesus uses the word “you” in the olivet discourse (which is a lot), he was not talking to his audience but a future generation?
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You assume too much. I never denied that the Romans under Titus destroyed Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. I gave you evidence of armies surrounding Jerusalem on the day of The Lord from the OT prophets, yet you don't care to even recognize those scriptures because it apparently is upsetting to your theory that the signs Jesus gave in His Olivet Discourse were not just for 70 A.D., but about the very end of this world.
I even showed one of the signs He gave about 'wars' and how you, nor any man today, can say that was fulfilled in 70 A.D., and the same applies the other signs He gave also, especially the one of His second coming which was admitted.
The everything was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Preterist doctrine is taken by some so far as to even teach the falsehood that Jesus' coming is only some kind of spiritual coming, and that He RETURNED in the days of His Apostles! That's the kind of falsehood that kind of doctrine creates.
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