666 ... the number of the beast ...

[Soulgazer]

Some Gnostics may agree with me, in the sense that they might also recognize a struggle between the Johannine pro-Torah disciples against the Pauline anti-Torah disciples.

In that way, we see Revelation as written against Paul; thus I reject Paul, and they might reject Revelation.

We don't reject Revelation because it is Johnine, but because it is not. The Apocaltptics were represented in the anthology just like everyone else, but they were wierd, violent, and were looking for retribution for the destruction of Jerusalem. Some of us consider them to have been anti-Christ, as Christ taught pacifism, not returning evil for evil, and this John of Patmos dreamed of a violent hateful end for their enemies. "[SIZE=-1]5:45[/SIZE]Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, on whom ye have set your hope." <> [SIZE=-1]8:15[/SIZE]Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. <> [SIZE=-1]12:47[/SIZE]And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. [SIZE=-1]12:48[/SIZE]He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.

So don't set your hope on Moses, and don't think Jesus will Judge you, according to the John of the Gospel. Not the same spirit that flows through the veins of the Apocalyptic writers, where Jesus comes with a sword to kill.

 

[timewerx]

When I first found out about Paul, I got a pretty bad feeling about the guy. Later, Ishraqiyun (a member of this forum) helped me see Paul's writings in a less invidious light. But I'm still sympathetic to the idea that Paul's interpretation of Christ's teachings was at least quite imperfect, possibly even outright corrupt.

I did not feel that bad about Paul at first. Just a wee bit, maybe just enough to try to do some research inside and outside canonical texts, history of early Christianity, etc, etc.

At first I thought it's simply mis-translations to English but found the same thing in the greek. Maybe perhaps the Greek scriptures are corrupted too so I looked into history of early Christians, then apparently found clear divisions between followers of the original disciples of Jesus vs converts of Paul and accused Paul of being a false prophet or apostle.

Also, a few of Paul's converts like the woman in Thyatira and associations like Simon the Magus. The woman who can be connected to the false prophet Jezebel of Thyatira who taught of eating foods sacrificed to idols. Simon the magus is portrayed as being wicked and unrepentant in Acts 8 (an example of a person who experienced "false salvation") and non canon sources also implicate Simon teaching of eating food sacrificed to idols....

...Remember Paul also made people think it's okay to eat food sacrificed to idols (1 Cor. 8). He disobeyed a direct order from Apostle James to teach Gentiles not to eat food sacrificed to idols.

Thank you for your testimony. I myself moved from evangelical-mainstream Christianity to non-Pauline Messianism after learning what I've learned about Paul. My last three years have been dedicated to this as my main subject of study

You're doing the right thing as Jesus exposed the evil deeds of the Pharisees.

Before Jesus came, the early Christians probably held the Pharisee elders in high esteem as most modern Christians would of Paul.

We're probably seeing the same thing today. This evil world is brainwashing you to be put most of your time in things that would put you away from seeking the Truth like hockey, football, golf, working/studying to have a good life where you can laugh, eat, drink, and get merry, do weekend getaways...

...Making it so easy for them to accept false teachings from false preachers.

James 4:4, Hosea 4:6

 

[timewerx]

So don't set your hope on Moses, and don't think Jesus will Judge you, according to the John of the Gospel.

I agree with the Gospel of John too regarding judgement if we're talking of:

John 12:47-48
"If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Don't celebrate yet. Those verses seem to implicate that Jesus through the Holy Spirit can speak even to sinners. And how most people in the world today, go about in their worldly affairs in arrogance, only few will not be judged.

Joel 2:28
"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

If you treat the words of Jesus like the remorseful tax collector in Luke 18:13-14 even if he may not be doing what Jesus commands us but truly remorseful to that fact, then you won't be judged.

But if you reject the words of Jesus as the Pharisees did in Luke 16:14-15. Then you will be judged. Sadly, many Christians today have adopted such attitude for they can't let go of the ways of the world. They reject the Words of Jesus if it goes in conflict with their worldly desires.

 

[Soulgazer]

I agree with the Gospel of John too regarding judgement if we're talking of:

John 12:47-48
"If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day.

Don't celebrate yet. Those verses seem to implicate that Jesus through the Holy Spirit can speak even to sinners. And how most people in the world today, go about in their worldly affairs in arrogance, only few will not be judged.

Joel 2:28
"And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

If you treat the words of Jesus like the remorseful tax collector in Luke 18:13-14 even if he may not be doing what Jesus commands us but truly remorseful to that fact, then you won't be judged.

But if you reject the words of Jesus as the Pharisees did in Luke 16:14-15. Then you will be judged. Sadly, many Christians today have adopted such attitude for they can't let go of the ways of the world. They reject the Words of Jesus if it goes in conflict with their worldly desires.

I read it as hearing and emulating. To become as close to Christ in attitude as possible. "The very words that I spoke" would be placing your faith in "Moses", which applied to the pharisee, which Jesus said they didn't obey the laws that Moses gave them--- in these modern times, we have to expand that to include Mohammed, the Federal Gov't or even a persons own conscience---- I know that in my life were I judged by my conscience, I would fail miserably. The only place your faith is safe is Jesus Christ, because He said He wouldn't judge you. It's not like a supreme being is Judging(if you believe Jesus to be that being as He said He judges no man)---you have already been judged, every second of everyday is judgment day, and judged by that which you put your faith in. In the anti-Christ doctrine, every failure is recorded against every success, saved up for a day when you will be thrown into court, to instill a terrible fear(anger and resentment piggybacks on fear, the anti-Christs main weapons). In Christs words, you are not judged for your failures as long as you pick yourself up, dust yourself off, and go back to seeking the right thing to do, to become more like Him.

This is not to say that every Gnostic reads revelation the same way. I know some who read the book as what was happening in the author's own soul, starting with the accusations and doubts and finishing with the Christ Triumphant. I have better and more important things to do than worry about somebody elses nightmare. God is either in control or He is not. If He is, then things will unfold as they should, and if He isn't, then what hope have I of controlling it either?

On the last day when you take your last breath, where will your faith be?

 

[ChetSinger]

Some Gnostics may agree with me, in the sense that they might also recognize a struggle between the Johannine pro-Torah disciples against the Pauline anti-Torah disciples.

In that way, we see Revelation as written against Paul; thus I reject Paul, and they might reject Revelation.

I guess you're on a journey. I hope you return at the end of it because I think Paul has been a wonderful influence on the church.

I suppose you already know this, but the 666 and 616 both fit Caesar Nero. One number results from using Greek codes and the other Latin, I think, so if you were a scribe preparing a manuscript for a Greek audience you'd use one number, and for a Latin audience the other.

Given the anti-Roman imagery used in the Revelation, and the early historical respect given Paul, I think you'll have a hard time selling 666=Paul.

 

[drstevej]

666 has to correlate with Windows 8. Has to!

 

[ananda]

We don't reject Revelation because it is Johnine, but because it is not. The Apocaltptics were represented in the anthology just like everyone else, but they were wierd, violent, and were looking for retribution for the destruction of Jerusalem. Some of us consider them to have been anti-Christ, as Christ taught pacifism, not returning evil for evil, and this John of Patmos dreamed of a violent hateful end for their enemies. "[SIZE=-1]5:45[/SIZE]Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, on whom ye have set your hope." <> [SIZE=-1]8:15[/SIZE]Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. <> [SIZE=-1]12:47[/SIZE]And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. [SIZE=-1]12:48[/SIZE]He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.

So don't set your hope on Moses, and don't think Jesus will Judge you, according to the John of the Gospel. Not the same spirit that flows through the veins of the Apocalyptic writers, where Jesus comes with a sword to kill.

Don't be surprised if I disagree

I find that the Revelation harmonizes quite well with the other Johannine books, all contains an emphasis on walking in trust and obedience. Obviously, the other books focus on the end for the faithful, whereas Revelation reveals the fate of the unfaithful and disobedient. I also find that the prophetic material therein also validates it for me according to the rules regarding prophetic utterances found in Torah.

 

[ananda]

I did not feel that bad about Paul at first. Just a wee bit, maybe just enough to try to do some research inside and outside canonical texts, history of early Christianity, etc, etc. At first I thought it's simply mis-translations to English but found the same thing in the greek. Maybe perhaps the Greek scriptures are corrupted too so I looked into history of early Christians, then apparently found clear divisions between followers of the original disciples of Jesus vs converts of Paul and accused Paul of being a false prophet or apostle.

As did I.

Also, a few of Paul's converts like the woman in Thyatira and associations like Simon the Magus. The woman who can be connected to the false prophet Jezebel of Thyatira who taught of eating foods sacrificed to idols. Simon the magus is portrayed as being wicked and unrepentant in Acts 8 (an example of a person who experienced "false salvation") and non canon sources also implicate Simon teaching of eating food sacrificed to idols....

Don't forget the fornication associated with both Balaam and Jezebel, which can also be associated with Paul. Or how the false dreamers, Cain, Balaam, and Korah as taught by Peter and Jude, can also very well hint at Paul.

You're doing the right thing as Jesus exposed the evil deeds of the Pharisees. Before Jesus came, the early Christians probably held the Pharisee elders in high esteem as most modern Christians would of Paul. We're probably seeing the same thing today. This evil world is brainwashing you to be put most of your time in things that would put you away from seeking the Truth like hockey, football, golf, working/studying to have a good life where you can laugh, eat, drink, and get merry, do weekend getaways...Making it so easy for them to accept false teachings from false preachers. James 4:4, Hosea 4:6

Well said.

I would say 9 out of 10 "Christians" (in reality, Pauline-Christians) out there are not much different from the rest of the world, except for the fact that they "confess Jesus as Lord and Savior" and so they have no worries about going to hell ... right?

 

[ananda]

I guess you're on a journey. I hope you return at the end of it because I think Paul has been a wonderful influence on the church.

Perhaps, perhaps not. After almost daily prayer and study on this subject for the last three years, I would doubt it though.

Perhaps Paul has had a wonderful influence on the church - but what "church"? In fact, I would suggest that he may have very well built a powerful yet counterfeit church that looks much like the one Messiah built, but really isn't. I think that would be the greatest coup the anti-Messiah could ever pull off, wouldn't you agree?

I suppose you already know this, but the 666 and 616 both fit Caesar Nero. One number results from using Greek codes and the other Latin, I think, so if you were a scribe preparing a manuscript for a Greek audience you'd use one number, and for a Latin audience the other.

I have heard of references to Nero, but I doubt it. I am of the position that the Apostles and elders wrote their original writings in Hebrew, and that they were translated into the Greek we have today. Hebrew was considered the "holy language" given by YHWH, just as Jerusalem is also seen as the "holy city", and prophetic significances are associated with Hebrew names in OT Scripture; and, so, I am confident that the Jewish Apostle John also had Hebrew in mind when he wrote regarding "666". Gematria is also limited to the Hebrew language.

Given the anti-Roman imagery used in the Revelation, and the early historical respect given Paul, I think you'll have a hard time selling 666=Paul.

I understand that the vast majority of commentators refer to the events of Revelation, Daniel, etc. as pointing to the rise and fall of different nations and secular leaders in the end times. I present a dissenting opinion: I suggest that they largely point to powerful religious leaders & organizations that wield some sort of secular power to oppress YHWH's People.

Also, if you'll closely study early church history, you'll probably find to your surprise that there were many doubts about Paul among many early groups, up through the 4th century and beyond. It was not until the 16th century, when Martin Luther resurrected many of the teachings of Marcion, that faith & grace only & Pauline Christianity became today's orthodoxy.

 

[Mark51]

Regarding the beast of Revelation 13:1, 2, The Interpreter&#8217;s Dictionary of the Bible points out that it &#8220;combines in itself the joint characteristics of the four beasts of Daniel&#8217;s vision&#8230;. Accordingly, this first beast [of Revelation] represents the combined forces of all political rule opposed to God in the world.&#8221; This observation is affirmed by Revelation 13:7, which says of the beast: &#8220;Authority was given it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.&#8221;

The Bible use beasts as symbols of human rulership for at least two reasons. First, because of the beastly record of bloodshed that governments have accrued over the centuries. (Ecclesiastes 8:9) The second reason is that &#8220;the dragon [Satan] gave to the beast its power and its throne and great authority.&#8221; (Revelation 12:9; 13:2) Accordingly, human rulership is a product of the Devil, thus reflecting his beastly, dragonlike disposition.-John 8:44; Ephesians 6:12.

A clue to the meaning of 666 lies in its being &#8220;a man&#8217;s number,&#8221; or as &#8220;a human number.&#8221; This expression could not refer to an individual human, for Satan-not any man-has authority over the beast. (Luke 4:5, 6; 1 John 5:19; Revelation 13:2, 18) Rather, the beast&#8217;s having &#8220;a human number,&#8221; or mark, suggests that it is a human entity, not spirit or demon, and that it therefore manifests certain human traits. (Romans 3:23) The beast&#8217;s having &#8220;a human number,&#8221; therefore, indicates that governments reflect the fallen human condition, the mark of sin and imperfection.

In the Scriptures, certain numbers have symbolic significance. The number seven, for example, is often used to symbolize that which is complete, or perfect, in God&#8217;s eyes. For instance, God&#8217;s creative week comprises seven &#8216;days,&#8217; or extended time periods, during which God completely accomplishes his creative purpose regarding the earth. (Genesis 1:3-2:3) God&#8217;s &#8220;sayings&#8221; are like silver that has been &#8220;clarified seven times,&#8221; thus perfectly refined. (Psalm 12:6; Proverbs 30:5, 6) The leper Naaman was told to bathe seven times in the Jordan River, after which he was completely healed.-2 Kings 5:10, 14.

Six is one short of seven. It is a fitting symbol of something imperfect, or defective, in God&#8217;s eyes. (1 Chronicles 20:6, 7) Moreover, six repeated three times, as 666, powerfully stresses that imperfection. That this is the correct view is supported by the fact that 666 is &#8220;a human number,&#8221; as we have considered. Thus, the beast&#8217;s record, its &#8220;human number,&#8221; and the number 666 itself all point to one unmistakable conclusion-gross shortcoming and failure in the eyes of God.

&#8220;The mark,&#8221; whether on the right hand or on the forehead, figuratively speaking, is a symbol that identifies its bearer as one who gives worshipful support to the beastlike political systems of the world. Those having the mark give to &#8220;Caesar&#8221; that which rightly belongs to God. (Luke 20:25; Revelation 13:4, 8; 14:1) By giving worshipful honor to the political state, its symbols, and its military might, to which they look for hope and salvation. Any worship that they render the true God is merely lip service.

 

[JSRG]

So, a question. I know this is one heck of a bump, but I wanted to ask this somewhere.

I have seen, like was done here, this argument advanced elsewhere that TRSV ("Tarsu") in Hebrew adds up to 666 and thus this was some kind of warning about Paul, because T-R-S-V is supposedly how Tarsus was spelled in Hebrew.

Now, this seems to be a very fringe opinion, with only a handful of people, even among those who don't like Paul, advancing it. Even if the word is T-R-S-V, there seem to be a number of issues with this interpretation, such as why Revelation wouldn't more directly refer to the number of Paul's actual name.

But my question is concerning something else that strikes more to the core of the matter, and that's this: Is the Hebrew name for Tarsus actually spelled T-R-S-V? (Tav Resh Samekh Vav)

I tried looking up how Tarsus is written in Hebrew. Most sources given it as T-R-S-V-S (Tet Resh Samekh Vav Samekh, "Tarsus"--note that the Tet letter also makes a T sound but is a different letter with a different number than Tav), which does not add up to 666. For example, I looked at a Hebrew translation of the New Testament and it used T-R-S-V-S, the Hebrew Wikipedia page for Tarsus wrote it T-R-S-V-S, if you put Tarsus into Google Translate (English->Hebrew) it gives you T-R-S-V-S. The Hebrew version of TripAdvisor (for traveling to modern Tarsus) renders it T-R-S-V-S, this Hebrew Dictionary renders it T-R-S-V-S (when used as a city; the translation for "tarsus" as a bone is different). Oddly, the English Wikipedia page on Tarsus renders it (in the first line) as T-R-SH-Y-S (Tav Resh Shin Yod Shin)--but that is again not T-R-S-V and does not add up to 666.

Of course, that is simply "Tarsus" as a standalone. "Paul of Tarsus" in Hebrew, due to inflection, renders it as T-R-S-Y at least according to Wikipedia and the Hebrew dictionary mentioned above (scroll down to example sentences and you will see Paul of Tarsus having Tarsus be T-R-S-Y). Again, this does not add up to 666.

So, is there any proof that Tarsus, in any form, was written T-R-S-V in Hebrew? It is theoretically possible that Tarsus, back in the first century, was written as T-R-S-V in Hebrew and it got changed to T-R-S-V-S over the centuries, but I have not seen proof of this. Again, the only places I have seen this are the (again, very small number of) places trying to find some connection between Paul and 666, and none of them cite any source for Tarsus being T-R-S-V in Hebrew. A Hebrew writing from or around the first century that wrote "Tarsus" would be useful for ascertaining how it was written back then. Anyone know of any such thing?

 

[Jipsah]

V 5
I 1
C 100
A 0
R 0
I 1
U 5
S 0

F 0
I 1
L 50
I 1
I 1

D 500
E 0
i 1
666

Nice try, but no one ever used that as a title.

 

[Yahkov]

I didn't know Paul raised up nations against the Lamb and some false prophet came with him with miracles and forced people to get his mark. I also didn't know that the first beast was killed for the testimony of Jesus. Wow, what book am I missing?

I guess we will also have to rule out Peter since he spoke of the genuineness of Paul and his letters. Also I guess we will have to rule out Luke and Acts, which also favor the genuine faith of Paul. Looks like your New Testament is left with Matthew, Mark, John, John's letters, and James.

I hope this helps readers see how outrageous of an idea that Paul is the first beast really is.

 

[Strong in Him]

&#8047;&#948;&#949; &#7969; &#963;&#959;&#966;&#8055;&#945; &#7952;&#963;&#964;&#8055;&#957; &#8001; &#7956;&#967;&#969;&#957; &#964;&#8056;&#957; &#957;&#959;&#8166;&#957; &#968;&#951;&#966;&#953;&#963;&#8049;&#964;&#969; &#964;&#8056;&#957; &#7936;&#961;&#953;&#952;&#956;&#8056;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#8166; &#952;&#951;&#961;&#8055;&#959;&#965; &#7936;&#961;&#953;&#952;&#956;&#8056;&#962; &#947;&#8048;&#961; &#7936;&#957;&#952;&#961;&#8061;&#960;&#959;&#965; &#7952;&#963;&#964;&#8055;&#957; &#954;&#945;&#8054; &#8001; &#7936;&#961;&#953;&#952;&#956;&#8056;&#962; &#945;&#8016;&#964;&#959;&#8166; &#967;&#958;&#962;

Don't understand what any of this means.

Rev 13:18 - Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding calculate the arithmetic of the beast: for it is the arithmetic of a man; and his number is Six hundred sixty six.

My belief is that 6 is the number of man - 7 is the number of God and 6 is 1 less; man has fallen short of God, Romans 3:23. So, to me, 666 = someone who is totally human - maybe humanistic. If they have a soul, it is filled with human ideas and thoughts.
I do not agree at all with the threads which talk about us adding numbers together to work out what God is saying, or that these numbers somehow relate to a human being.

3. The man's identity is connected with "666";

That's one interpretation; not everyone agrees with it.

How can one "calculate the arithmetic"? Hebrew Gematria - each of the 22 letters of the Hebrew aleph-bet have a corresponding number. Generally speaking, we would choose the smallest number of letters which would add up to a specific gematria number. The highest number is 400, so that letter is used first Tau(T). Next, we would add 200 to get 600; that letter is Resh(R). Samech(S) is 60 to get 660. Finally, Vav(V/U) is 6 to end up with 666.

TRSU would be prounounced TaRSU ... sounds like a reference to "Tarsus" to me!

Sounds like someone jumping to a rather large conclusion, to me.

 

[Strong in Him]

Some Gnostics may agree with me, in the sense that they might also recognize a struggle between the Johannine pro-Torah disciples against the Pauline anti-Torah disciples.

In that way, we see Revelation as written against Paul; thus I reject Paul, and they might reject Revelation.

You do realise that forum rules state:

Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

The book of Revelation was written long after Paul had died.

 

[Shrewd Manager]

TRSU would be prounounced TaRSU ... sounds like a reference to "Tarsus" to me!

Sounds like gnostic scuttlebutt to me. Vain and vacuous.

Repent and seek Christ.