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6,000 Years?

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Zceptre

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The organics in T-rex fossils are different from Otzi the ice mummy and other mummies from 5000-6000 years ago. Taken literally this man would have lived and died in Adam's biblical time. Which is problematic because a (secular match) for historical Adam would have lived at the beginning of the neolithic farming revolution around 12250 years ago +- 150 years.

(Otzi 5350 years before present)

View attachment 359322

I've done my own digging. Details I need not debate for support from others or for comfort. God showed me what I needed to know, to know the truth.

The Bible has been my plumb line and guiding standard since I started my searching 20+ years ago. It still is today and has always been right, even when the passages looked horrific or insanely outlandish.

People can "claim" 12,000 years and assert similarities and comparisons and the like until the soon to happen Rapture... The Bible is rock solid and I trust it more than the scientific community. I have found more lies in science than I could keep count of, as I literally lost track 5-10 years in. The Bible... Always validated to be accurate. (Never caught lying, although people accuse it like Christ before Pilate)

It seems to me, many people have trouble with anything that could be supernatural and are limited by this mindset.

Sadly enough, that is problematic to any Christian because Christ Jesus was supernaturally raised from the dead 3 days after they crucified Him.

There are many other supernatural things people have trouble believing, but they are not going to be much longer. The demonic realm knows their time is short and their presence and visibility is increasing.

There are drawings on rocks and cave walls of dinosaurs by people who did not dig them up all over the world. They find human footprints inside dinosaur tracks.

The Bible's genealogy is pretty certain if you actually do the diligent work to study it, but most do not. They quote scientific papers and trust the people and the machines and the stories of any and all archeologists from who knows where and what and how.

I'm not in that camp at all. I trusted God, and His Word, before I started eliminating the doubts and alternative options Satan presents before us. I still do now.

The only difference is that I have found the scientific claims almost always faulty and from untrustworthy people, often tainted or outright lies.

The Book of Truth on the other hand, such as with Sodom, Egypt, the Red Sea, Babylon, Noah's Flood, Giants or anomalies in historical people... continues to be right. (The full list is much longer)

I will admit that one must use evidence based faith to jump to the truth, and I think God does this on purpose. But it is not without evidence that people can see a 6,000 year old Earth. (almost)

God specifies what parts of creation He made on which days... I do not think for a second God spent 1,000 years (Day 3) just to create the plants, and another 1,000 years (Day 5) to create animal life.

If someone DOES believe that... Then God spent 1,000 years creating two people. One named Adam and another named Eve.

If that makes rational sense to someone, then there isn't any point discussing much else as they have an issue with the supernatural aspect of God's creation.

You have to throw out the explanation God gives to add and stretch out time if you go any route besides giving God credit for supernaturally creating the world in 6 days and resting on the 7th.

This is in large part a faith based issue. You can't see what the Bible tells us is true, unless you have faith in God and His ability to do what He said He done. (Abraham's wife had this issue and laughed at God, so God is not without understanding and mercy here because she was not destroyed)

It also is a conflict given just as Eve faced long ago. God says this, but did He "really" say? Because man tells us this.

It's an option. Who do you believe. God... or man... (or serpents, depending how full-send you want to go in your view lol)
 
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setst777

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Yes, God took the rib out of Adam, after first putting Adam into a prophetic dream like sleep. I'm sorry if you've never noticed Adam being put into a tardemah before.

"Tardemah" is a deep sleep. Nothing prophetic is mentioned.
"Tardemah" does not mean prophetic dreaming, although God may provide a prophetic vision, but only if the Scripture states it. And why even bring that point up?

What does prophetic dreaming have anything to do with God forming the first man from the dust of the earth, or woman being created from the rib of that first man, Adam?

The fact remains that the first Adam was formed from the dust of the earth, and God breathed life into his creation. This is a one-time action by God to create the first man, and so begin the race of mankind.

Afterwards, God put Adam (the first man) into a deep sleep and removed a rib from Adam and made Eve with it.
This is the first and only time that God created the female from a rib of the first man, Adam.
Adam and Eve bore other children, thus bearing offspring.

Yup, the first man elected by God. And again, all men are made of dust in the old testament. I'm sorry if you've never noticed this. It's not about biology.

Only Adam (the first man) was made from the dust of the earth. Eve was not made from the dust of the earth; rather, she was formed from the rib of Adam by God. God blessed them and said to be fruitful and multiply; and so, Adam and Eve bore others of the human race.

You will not find any Scripture that states or teaches about any other man being formed from the dust of the earth. That is just your own biased imagination. Eve was not formed from the dust of the earth and neither were her children.

I can see you have more respect for your imaginations than for God and His Word; therefore, go your way now. In the end, we will all be judged by God for how we treated His Word.
 
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Job 33:6

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"Tardemah" is a deep sleep. Nothing prophetic is mentioned.
"Tardemah" does not mean prophetic dreaming, although God may provide a prophetic vision, but only if the Scripture states it. And why even bring that point up?

Regarding how the term is used in the Bible, It involves a prophetic vision just a few chapters later with Abraham.

The fact remains that the first Adam was formed from the dust of the earth, and God breathed life into his creation. This is a one-time action by God to create the first man, and so begin the race of mankind.
Sorry if you didn't know this, but in the old testament, all people are made of dust. This has nothing to do with biology.


Afterwards, God put Adam (the first man) into a deep sleep and removed a rib from Adam and made Eve with it.
This is the first and only time that created the female from a rib of the first man, Adam.
Adam and Eve bore other children, thus bearing offspring.
And this happened in Adams deep slip visionary state.

Only Adam (the first man) was made from the dust of the earth.

All of mankind is made of dust in the old testament. This is not unique of Adam.

You will not find any Scripture that any other man was formed from the dust of the earth. That is just your own biased imaginations.

I can see you have more respect for your imaginations than for God and His Word; therefore, go your way now. In the end, we will all be judged by God for how we treated His Word.
All of mankind is dust. Saying that it is "of the earth" doesn't make Adam's dust any different than any other human beings dust. Dust is dust, and in the old testament, we are all dust.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 states: "All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."
Ecclesiastes 12:7 states "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

Thats where it comes from. The earth.
 
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Job 33:6

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"You will not find any Scripture that any other man was formed from the dust of the earth. That is just your own biased imaginations."

Ecclesiastes 3:20 states: "All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."
Ecclesiastes 12:7 states "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

Not only are there other men formed from dust of the earth, but indeed, all of mankind is dust from the earth. And there are many passages about this in the old testament. That's why Adam is Adam, he represents us all. We are dust because he first was dust. We sin because he first sinned etc.

But this isn't about biology. It's about our nature as earthly mortal beings (as opposed to heavenly supernatural beings).

Job 10:9 "Remember that you have formed me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?"

Psalm 103:14 "For he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust."

Genesis 18:27, Abraham says: "I am but dust and ashes."

Psalm 90:3: "You return man to dust, saying, 'Return, O sons of mortals'"

Isaiah 26:19: Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!" (dust is of the earth)

etc.

@setst777
 
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"Tardemah" is a deep sleep. Nothing prophetic is mentioned.
"Tardemah" does not mean prophetic dreaming, although God may provide a prophetic vision, but only if the Scripture states it. And why even bring that point up?
In the context of Genesis, it does. And scripture need only mention the deep sleep.
What does prophetic dreaming have anything to do with...a woman being created from the rib...?
I've paraphrased here. The prophetic dream matters because it immediately precedes Eves creation. Meaning that the one side of Adams body being separated from his other side, isn't a biological description of Eve's origins. It's theological.
 
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Job 33:6

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Job 4:13 NASB1995
[13] Amid disquieting thoughts from the visions of the night, When deep sleep falls on men,

A vision of eliphaz upon falling into a deep sleep,

Job 33:15 NIV
[15] In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on people as they slumber in their beds,

Genesis 15:12 NIV
[12] As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him.

Genesis 15:13-16 NIV
[13] Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. [14] But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. [15] You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. [16] In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

With Abraham, he falls into a deep sleep and God simply speaks to him.

Daniel 2:1-3, 28 NIV
[1] In the second year of his reign, Nebuchadnezzar had dreams; his mind was troubled and he could not sleep. [2] So the king summoned the magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers to tell him what he had dreamed. When they came in and stood before the king, [3] he said to them, “I have had a dream that troubles me and I want to know what it means.”
[28] but there is a God in heaven who reveals mysteries. He has shown King Nebuchadnezzar what will happen in days to come. Your dream and the visions that passed through your mind as you were lying in bed are these:

Daniel 7:1 NIV
[1] In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon, Daniel had a dream, and visions passed through his mind as he was lying in bed. He wrote down the substance of his dream.

Joel 2:28 NIV
[28] “And afterward, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions.

The Bible need not explicitly say it is a vision. The context only needs to imply it.

And Adam, the side of his body, the Tsela, which is a term used for the North side or the South side of the tabernacle, perhaps even half of his body (not merely a rib), separated into two, to form the woman.

This is a vision, it isn't a 21st century hospital anesthesia and surgery of a rib bone.
 
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Job 33:6

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The instance of tardemah with Abraham in Genesis 15:12 is likely the closest parallel to Adam’s deep sleep in Genesis 2:21 for several reasons:

1. Shared Context in Genesis:
Both occurrences are in Genesis, linking them within the same overarching theological and literary framework.

Genesis often highlights God’s direct intervention in shaping foundational events, such as creation and covenant.

2. Divine Intervention:
In both cases, the deep sleep is explicitly caused by God, marking it as an extraordinary state with divine purpose.

In Genesis 2:21, the deep sleep allows God to create Eve from Adam's side, symbolizing human partnership and the establishment of marriage.

In Genesis 15:12, the deep sleep enables God to reveal the future of Abraham’s descendants and ratify a covenant, highlighting divine faithfulness.

3. Facilitation of God's Work:
Adam is placed in a state of passivity, enabling God’s creative act without interference.

Abraham, similarly, is rendered passive, emphasizing that the covenant depends entirely on God’s initiative and not human action.

4. Symbolic Significance:
Both instances transcend physical sleep, representing deeper spiritual or theological realities.

Adam’s deep sleep is tied to the creation of human unity and relationship.
Abraham’s deep sleep is tied to the formation of a covenantal relationship between God and His chosen people.

The parallels between Adam's and Abraham’s deep sleep are striking due to their shared context in Genesis and the divine intervention at the heart of each event. Both instances underscore God's sovereignty and the importance of His active role in creation and covenant-making. These connections suggest that tardemah in these cases carries profound theological weight beyond mere physical sleep.


A parallel could be drawn between the splitting of Adam in Genesis 2:21 and the splitting of the animals in Genesis 15:9-10, as both involve acts of division orchestrated by God to bring about significant outcomes in His relationship with humanity.

1. Divine Act of Splitting:
Adam: God puts Adam into a deep sleep and splits his side to form Eve. This act establishes the human relationship of partnership and unity in marriage.

Animals: God instructs Abraham to split the animals in preparation for the covenant. This act symbolizes the binding nature of the covenant and the solemnity of the relationship between God and Abraham’s descendants.

2. Creation of a Covenant or Relationship:
Adam and Eve: The splitting of Adam results in the creation of Eve, symbolizing the establishment of a covenantal relationship between man and woman.

Covenant with Abraham: The splitting of the animals solidifies the covenant between God and Abraham, signifying God’s commitment to His promises.

3. Symbolism of Unity and Restoration:
Adam and Eve: Although Adam is split, the union with Eve ("bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh") represents the restoration of unity, now expressed in relational harmony.

Split Animals: The divided animals serve as a visual reminder of the gravity of breaking the covenant. The walking between the pieces (by God’s presence) symbolizes a restoration of peace and unity through the fulfillment of God’s promises.

4. Sacred and Foundational Events:
Both the splitting of Adam and the splitting of the animals occur at pivotal moments in redemptive history:

Adam’s splitting inaugurates human relationships and community.

The animals’ splitting marks the formalization of God’s covenant with Abraham, establishing the foundation for the nation of Israel.
Conclusion:

The splitting in both cases involves God’s intervention to create or reinforce critical relationships—Adam and Eve’s union and God’s covenant with Abraham. These parallels underscore themes of division leading to unity, divine sovereignty, and the establishment of sacred bonds that shape humanity’s relationship with God and each other

And with the above said, indeed, the closest parallel to Genesis we have, is the deep sleep of Abraham. And that of course, is a prophetic sleep of revelation, not of modern medical anesthesia.
 
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Regarding the Tesla:
Genesis 2:21-22 (NIV):
"So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s [Tsela] and then closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man."

The word "tsela" is used to describe sides or chambers of sacred structures:
Exodus 25:12 (NIV):
"Cast four gold rings for it and fasten them to its four feet, with two rings on one side and two rings on the other."

Exodus 26:20 (NIV):
"And for the other side, the north side of the tabernacle, make twenty frames."

1 Kings 6:5 (NIV):
"Against the walls of the main hall and inner sanctuary, he built a structure around the building, in which there were side rooms."

In Ezekiel’s vision, "tsela" is used for side chambers in the temple:
Ezekiel 41:5-6 (NIV):
"Then he measured the wall of the temple; it was six cubits thick, and each side room around the temple was four cubits wide. The side rooms were on three levels, one above another, thirty on each level. There were ledges all around the wall of the temple to serve as supports for the side rooms, so that the side rooms were not supported by the wall of the temple."


Indeed, In every use of the Bible, the Tsela, is not merely a rib. But it is a portion or more commonly and in more immediate proximity to Genesis, Moses uses this term to refer to a 50/50 split, side. Just like the animals of Abraham's vision.

Which means that, Adam was split, not merely with a single rib. But like the animals of Abraham's deep sleep, and the usage 100% of the time in Exodus, this is about Adam being split 50/50. These halves, these sides, when out together, demonstrate full completeness.
 
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God specifies what parts of creation He made on which days... I do not think for a second God spent 1,000 years (Day 3) just to create the plants, and another 1,000 years (Day 5) to create animal life.

If someone DOES believe that... Then God spent 1,000 years creating two people. One named Adam and another named Eve.

If that makes rational sense to someone, then there isn't any point discussing much else as they have an issue with the supernatural aspect of God's creation.

You have to throw out the explanation God gives to add and stretch out time if you go any route besides giving God credit for supernaturally creating the world in 6 days and resting on the 7th.
The first acts in genesis are described as "days" and "toledoth" which is generations. So the time passage is unknowable.

Even secular scientists use the word "day" to describe large passages of time.(in fact they describe the whole thing in just one day)

A historical adam is rather important to me. 12250 years ago there was a man who loved his family and community enough to plow fields and succeed for the first time in history. He is the ancestor to nearly everyone except remote nomadic tribes in Africa and some remote villages in Indonesia and Australian aboriginals. All the Americans, Asians, Europeans, North Africans are just mixtures of Adamatic decedents. Out of 8 billion people roughly 7.998 would be sons/daughters of adam.
 
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setst777

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All of mankind is dust. Saying that it is "of the earth" doesn't make Adam's dust any different than any other human beings dust. Dust is dust, and in the old testament, we are all dust.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 states: "All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."
Ecclesiastes 12:7 states "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

Thats where it comes from. The earth.

Adam was the only man who was formed from the dust of the earth, according to the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 15:45 (WEB) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” [Genesis 2:7]

Sure, our physical bodies return to dust, because we are made up of elements found on earth, but we are the offspring descendants of Adam.

The Book of Genesis does not say it is symbolic; rather, these are actual events recorded by inspiration from God.

"Deep sleep" does not assume visions, unless God reveals that this is so in His Word. Regarding Adam, God put him into a deep sleep for the purpose of removing a rib from his body. That is the context. This is not symbolic.

Genesis 2:22-23 (WEB)
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

The Apostle Paul did not consider this Genesis account as symbolic.

1 Corinthians 11:8-9 (WEB) 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man; 9 for man was not created for the woman, but woman for the man.

Believe what you will. Add and pervert the Scriptures to your heart's content. Like I said, go your way, and may you humble yourself before God and repent before it's too late.
 
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Job 33:6

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Adam was the only man who was formed from the dust of the earth, according to the Scriptures.
Psalm 103:14 "For he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust."

Nope.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 states: "All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 states "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

All of mankind is dust of the earth. From it we are formed and to it we return.

1 Corinthians 15:45 (WEB) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” [Genesis 2:7]

Sure, our physical bodies return to dust, because we are made up of elements found on earth, but we are the offspring descendants of Adam.
We don't merely return to dust. We are dust.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 states: "All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."
Ecclesiastes 12:7 states "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

Not only are there other men formed from dust of the earth, but indeed, all of mankind is dust from the earth. And there are many passages about this in the old testament. That's why Adam is Adam, he represents us all. We are dust because he first was dust. We sin because he first sinned etc.

But this isn't about biology. It's about our nature as earthly mortal beings (as opposed to heavenly supernatural beings).

Job 10:9 "Remember that you have formed me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?"

Psalm 103:14 "For he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust."

Genesis 18:27, Abraham says: "I am but dust and ashes."

Psalm 90:3: "You return man to dust, saying, 'Return, O sons of mortals'"

Isaiah 26:19: Your dead shall live; their bodies shall rise. You who dwell in the dust, awake and sing for joy!" (dust is of the earth)
The Book of Genesis does not say it is symbolic; rather, these are actual events recorded by inspiration from God.

"Deep sleep" does not assume visions, unless God reveals that this is so in His Word. Regarding Adam, God put him into a deep sleep for the purpose of removing a rib from his body. That is the context. This is not symbolic.
It is very much symbolic.

The instance of tardemah with Abraham in Genesis 15:12 is likely the closest parallel to Adam’s deep sleep in Genesis 2:21 for several reasons:

1. Shared Context in Genesis:
Both occurrences are in Genesis, linking them within the same overarching theological and literary framework.

Genesis often highlights God’s direct intervention in shaping foundational events, such as creation and covenant.

2. Divine Intervention:
In both cases, the deep sleep is explicitly caused by God, marking it as an extraordinary state with divine purpose.

In Genesis 2:21, the deep sleep allows God to create Eve from Adam's side, symbolizing human partnership and the establishment of marriage.

In Genesis 15:12, the deep sleep enables God to reveal the future of Abraham’s descendants and ratify a covenant, highlighting divine faithfulness.

3. Facilitation of God's Work:
Adam is placed in a state of passivity, enabling God’s creative act without interference.

Abraham, similarly, is rendered passive, emphasizing that the covenant depends entirely on God’s initiative and not human action.

4. Symbolic Significance:
Both instances transcend physical sleep, representing deeper spiritual or theological realities.

Adam’s deep sleep is tied to the creation of human unity and relationship.

Abraham’s deep sleep is tied to the formation of a covenantal relationship between God and His chosen people.

The parallels between Adam's and Abraham’s deep sleep are striking due to their shared context in Genesis and the divine intervention at the heart of each event. Both instances underscore God's sovereignty and the importance of His active role in creation and covenant-making. These connections suggest that tardemah in these cases carries profound theological weight beyond mere physical sleep.

A parallel could be drawn between the splitting of Adam in Genesis 2:21 and the splitting of the animals in Genesis 15:9-10, as both involve acts of division orchestrated by God to bring about significant outcomes in His relationship with humanity.

1. Divine Act of Splitting:
Adam: God puts Adam into a deep sleep and splits his side to form Eve. This act establishes the human relationship of partnership and unity in marriage.

Animals: God instructs Abraham to split the animals in preparation for the covenant. This act symbolizes the binding nature of the covenant and the solemnity of the relationship between God and Abraham’s descendants.

2. Creation of a Covenant or Relationship:
Adam and Eve: The splitting of Adam results in the creation of Eve, symbolizing the establishment of a covenantal relationship between man and woman.

Covenant with Abraham: The splitting of the animals solidifies the covenant between God and Abraham, signifying God’s commitment to His promises.

3. Symbolism of Unity and Restoration:
Adam and Eve: Although Adam is split, the union with Eve ("bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh") represents the restoration of unity, now expressed in relational harmony.

Split Animals: The divided animals serve as a visual reminder of the gravity of breaking the covenant. The walking between the pieces (by God’s presence) symbolizes a restoration of peace and unity through the fulfillment of God’s promises.

4. Sacred and Foundational Events:
Both the splitting of Adam and the splitting of the animals occur at pivotal moments in redemptive history:

Adam’s splitting inaugurates human relationships and community.

The animals’ splitting marks the formalization of God’s covenant with Abraham, establishing the foundation for the nation of Israel.

Conclusion:
The splitting in both cases involves God’s intervention to create or reinforce critical relationships—Adam and Eve’s union and God’s covenant with Abraham. These parallels underscore themes of division leading to unity, divine sovereignty, and the establishment of sacred bonds that shape humanity’s relationship with God and each other

And with the above said, indeed, the closest parallel to Genesis we have, is the deep sleep of Abraham. And that of course, is a prophetic sleep of revelation, not of modern medical anesthesia.

Genesis 2:22-23 (WEB)
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

That's right. Bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. Not merely a rib bone. But a side. Like the North side and South side of the tabernacle.
The Apostle Paul did not consider this Genesis account as symbolic.

1 Corinthians 11:8-9 (WEB) 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man; 9 for man was not created for the woman, but woman for the man.

Believe what you will. Add and pervert the Scriptures to your heart's content. Like I said, go your way, and may you humble yourself before God and repent before it's too late.
This has nothing to do with biology. It's about head coverings, but further it expresses mutual relatedness.

1 Corinthians 11:7-12 NIV
[7] A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. [8] For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; [9] neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. [10] It is for this reason that a woman ought to have authority over her own head, because of the angels.

Id recommend reading the Bible in context.
 
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Job 33:6

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"Adam was the only man who was formed from the dust of the earth, according to the Scriptures."

Nope.

Ecclesiastes 3:20 states: "All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 states "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

"Yea but, Adam was the only one formed of dust of the earth."

Nope.

Job 10:9 "Remember that you have formed me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?"

Psalm 103:14 "For he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.

"Yea but Adam was the only man who was formed from the dust of the earth, according to the Scriptures."

Nope again:

Ecclesiastes 3:20 states: "All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return."

Ecclesiastes 12:7 states "And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."

1 Corinthians 15:47-48 NIV
[47] The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven. [48] As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.

Psalm 103:14 "For he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust.

So are those who are of the earth (all people) as was the earthly man.

Every person is dust of the earth. That's just the way it is. It's not about biology. And that's how God has formed us.

Job 10:9 "Remember that you have formed me like clay; and will you return me to the dust?"

Psalm 103:14 "For he knows how we are formed, he remembers that we are dust
 
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John Bauer

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About 1,000 years before 12250ya that the world heats up to near modern temperature, ice age cultures end and sedentary cultures begin in newly growing forests. Just before 12250ya forests in the middle east start drying up and becoming barren. Around 12250ya the first successful agricultural cultivation.

This preserves the themes of genesis 2-3. A biblical Adam is cursed to work the land and so would an Adamatic man in the secular timeline.

While this wouldn't make Adam the first man who lived or the only man alive. It's very likely that a single man invented agriculture during a time of sudden hardship. So a singular man is sensible for a story set in this time period. This also preserves Eve's theme of child birth since dietary changes affect childbirth.

Placing Adam in the 40th-31st century BCE puts him in an era where he'd walk out of the garden and into Ur, Uruk and Eridu filled with people who know about historical peoples that lived 1000s of years before their present.View attachment 359362

Okay, so you're situating this "secular match for a historical Adam" around 12,250 years ago because Adam was forced to work the land. What I don't understand is

(a) why you're suggesting that this was a dry and barren landscape.

(b) why you're looking at Adam as the one who invented agriculture.

A dry and barren landscape is not entailed in the text, and there's no obvious reason why the inventor of agriculture had to be Adam.
 
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AaronClaricus

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Okay, so you're situating this "secular match for a historical Adam" around 12,250 years ago because Adam was forced to work the land. What I don't understand is

(a) why you're suggesting that this was a dry and barren landscape.

(b) why you're looking at Adam as the one who invented agriculture.

A dry and barren landscape is not entailed in the text, and there's no obvious reason why the inventor of agriculture had to be Adam.
Genesis 3:17 states that adam must toil the earth.
Genesis 3:22 Adam was sent from the garden to till the ground from which he was taken.

Genesis 3:18 says it will bring both thorns and thistles.

The way scientists look for agriculture is by sifting for seeds and pollen. There are places in the middle east that were once wild grain fields, these produce substantially fewer weeds than land which has been "Toiled"(worked, plowed, tilled).

As for the land being dry and barren. Adam is driven out of a forest(genesis 2:9) into a terrain that's not forest. He'd still have access to the rivers which go out of eden and into the flood plains of the middle east. So there's still reason to believe the land he specifically worked was "wet" enough for agriculture. Just not huge closed forests. The general conditions of the middle east and indeed the whole world were drier(cursed) than previous good times(eden).
 
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Valletta

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That is what they believe, but the Scriptures, when read in context, teach differently.

When we come to and believe in Lord Jesus we are symbolically eating and drinking of him.

John 6:35 (WEB) Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:63 (WEB) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.

The Lord's Supper (Communion) is not eating Christ's literal body and drinking his blood in a miraculous transformation of the bread and wine; rather, the bread and wine remain as they are, according to Lord Jesus, but what is represented in them is what we must remember - which is Christ crucified for us, so that, those believing may be cleansed and saved - that is the New Covenant in His blood.

What Lord Jesus gave them to drink was the "fruit of the vine."

Matthew 26:27-29 (WEB) 27 He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, “All of you drink it, 28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I tell you that I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on, until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

Luke 22:14-20 (WEB) 14 When the hour had come, he sat down with the twelve apostles. 15 He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, 16 for I tell you, I will no longer by any means eat of it until it is fulfilled in God’s Kingdom.” 17 He received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, “Take this, and share it among yourselves, 18 for I tell you, I will not drink at all again from the fruit of the vine, until God’s Kingdom comes.”
19 He took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in memory of me.” 20 Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:23-24 (WEB) 23 For I received from the Lord that which also I delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread. 24 When he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “Take, eat. This is my body, which is broken for you. Do this in memory of me.” 25 In the same way he also took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink, in memory of me.”
John 6:50-59 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread[a] which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”[b] 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” 59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper′na-um. RSVCE

In John 6:50-53 the Koine Greek words used for “eat” are forms of phago. The Jews find the words of Jesus hard to believe. In John 6:54 Jesus switches to a form of the word "trogein" or "trogo" for "eat." "Trogein" means to chew or to masticate—Jesus is emphasizing he means actual eating. In other words, when challenged Jesus, instead of telling them it is symbolic, does the opposite and makes it clear that He is speaking literally about eating His flesh. Jesus would not let his disciples walk away because of a misunderstanding.

"The flesh" means things of the flesh. Jesus did not say "My flesh," Jesus said "the flesh." That is much different than Christ's true body and his true blood.

As for the "fruit of the vine" remember there are four Seder cups of wine for the Passover celebration which began at the Last Supper. The fourth cup was consumed at the end of the New Covenant Passover, when Jesus was on the cross. A sponge with sour wine was lifted up to Jesus. All four Gospel writers record it. Note that it was lifted on a hyssop branch, hyssop was used to sprinkle the blood of the lamb for Passover, as recorded in Exodus. Then Jesus said it is finished. The fourth cup needed to be drunk in order to finish this New Covenant Passover. Again, eating the lamb is required for Passover, so too we must eat the Body of the Lamb of God, Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, in order that the New Passover be complete.

1 Cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation[a] in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation[b] in the body of Christ? RSVCE
 
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setst777

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John 6:50-59 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that a man may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread[a] which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread, he will live for ever; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” 52 The Jews then disputed among themselves, saying, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”[b] 53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; 54 he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so he who eats me will live because of me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven, not such as the fathers ate and died; he who eats this bread will live for ever.” 59 This he said in the synagogue, as he taught at Caper′na-um. RSVCE

Lord Jesus is not literally a piece of bread any more so than he is a "the true vine" (John 15) or "the gate" or "door" (John 10:7-10). Your insinuation that Lord Jesus is a piece of bread is ridiculous.

What was in the cup was "the fruit of the vine" just as Lord Jesus stated, but represented the New Covenant in His blood.

Matthew 26:27-29 (WEB) 27 He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, “All of you drink it, 28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I tell you that I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on, until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

What Lord Jesus gave them to eat was bread, but represented his body broke for them.

Luke 22:19-20 (WEB) 19 He took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in memory of me.” 20 Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

In John 6:50-53 the Koine Greek words used for “eat” are forms of phago. The Jews find the words of Jesus hard to believe. In John 6:54 Jesus switches to a form of the word "trogein" or "trogo" for "eat." "Trogein" means to chew or to masticate—Jesus is emphasizing he means actual eating. In other words, when challenged Jesus, instead of telling them it is symbolic, does the opposite and makes it clear that He is speaking literally about eating His flesh. Jesus would not let his disciples walk away because of a misunderstanding.

"The flesh" means things of the flesh. Jesus did not say "My flesh," Jesus said "the flesh." That is much different than Christ's true body and his true blood.

You are making the same mistake the Jews made when he said those words. They were taking literally what Lord Jesus was meaning figuratively.

John 6:35 (WEB) Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

The Gospel of Salvation is about coming to (eating) Lord Jesus and believing (drinking) in Him to be saved, and NOT by eating his literal flesh and drinking his blood.

As for the "fruit of the vine" remember there are four Seder cups of wine for the Passover celebration which began at the Last Supper. The fourth cup was consumed at the end of the New Covenant Passover, when Jesus was on the cross. A sponge with sour wine was lifted up to Jesus. All four Gospel writers record it. Note that it was lifted on a hyssop branch, hyssop was used to sprinkle the blood of the lamb for Passover, as recorded in Exodus. Then Jesus said it is finished. The fourth cup needed to be drunk in order to finish this New Covenant Passover. Again, eating the lamb is required for Passover, so too we must eat the Body of the Lamb of God, Jesus in the Holy Eucharist, in order that the New Passover be complete.

1 Cor 10:16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation[a] in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation[b] in the body of Christ? RSVCE

Lord Jesus plainly stated that what they were drinking was the fruit of the vine, which represents the New Covenant in His Blood to all who believe in him. That is the Gospel.

Matthew 26:27-29 (WEB) 27 He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, “All of you drink it, 28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I tell you that I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on, until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

If you want to continue believing that you have to literally eat Christ's body and drink his blood to be saved, you are free to do so; however, that is not the context. The context is always about coming to Lord Jesus and believing in Him as our Savior and Lord. That is the Gospel all through the New Testament.
 
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Jipsah

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So then how and why can certain churches (LCMS, for one) teach it is around 6000 years old?
The simplest answer is that Genesis/Old Testament "days" (and thud "years") aren't 24-hour solar "days" or "years". The most obvious evidence for that is that the Creation is subdivided into 6 "days". Those could not have been solar days before the sun was created, as it was not until the 4th "day" of Genesis. Six day creationists try to get around that by claiming that there was another "not sun" light source, not mentioned in Scripture, by which "evenings and mornings" were created and "days" calculated. (apparently "sola scriptura" sometimes can't be allowed to get in the way).

There are obvious problems with that. The first is that these periods of time are entirely arbitrary, given the nonexistence of actual "evenings" and "mornings" due to the absence of a sun by which such things are created an by which their length is calculated. Creating a non-sun sun not spoken of in Scripture is, at worst, playing fast and loose with holy writ, and at best, simply goofy.

It's further complicated by the fact that Scripture explicitly exempts God from normal human time constraints. Psalms 90:4 says “For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night.”, with the "1000 years" there presumably means "years" as we perceive them. St. Peter reaffirms this in the New Testament: 2 Peter 3:8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day” (2 Peter 3:8). The "days mean solar days!" folks have to try and evade those verses, by claiming they're only true under limited circumstances (apparentl;y where it doesn't harm any of their favorite doctrines), but once against, Biblical inerrancy kind of takes a beating there one way or another.

My thought, worth the price charged? The "days" and "years" or the Old Testament accounts are arbitrary, there to express indefinite periods of time. Obviously, from Scripture, trying to bind God to the solar calendar doesn't work, because He simply isn't restricted by the passage of time, whether it's reckoned by orbits around the sun or vibrations of a quartz crystal. The OT writers were limited to how they could express time by "small increments", days, or "large increments", years. Neither of those is calculable by our solar time scale, which is OK, since the writer wasn't trying to express precise intervals of time. But that time, a "long time" or a "shorter time" passed.
 
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Jipsah

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So then how and why can certain churches (LCMS, for one) teach it is around 6000 years old?
It's a matter of faith, one which most of us don't find it necessary to hold.
 
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