6,000 Years?

[setst777]

LCMS believe that the Eucharist is Jesus “in, with and under“ the bread and wine. RCC believe the bread and wine turn into the body and blood of Jesus

That is what they believe, but the Scriptures, when read in context, teach differently.

When we come to and believe in Lord Jesus we are symbolically eating and drinking of him.

John 6:35 (WEB) Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will not be hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.

John 6:63 (WEB) It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.

The Lord's Supper (Communion) is not eating Christ's literal body and drinking his blood in a miraculous transformation of the bread and wine; rather, the bread and wine remain as they are, according to Lord Jesus, but what is represented in them is what we must remember - which is Christ crucified for us, so that, those believing may be cleansed and saved - that is the New Covenant in His blood.

What Lord Jesus gave them to drink was the "fruit of the vine."

Matthew 26:27-29 (WEB) 27 He took the cup, gave thanks, and gave to them, saying, “All of you drink it, 28 for this is my blood of the new covenant, which is poured out for many for the remission of sins. 29 But I tell you that I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on, until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”

Luke 22:14-20 (WEB) 14 When the hour had come, he sat down with the twelve apostles. 15 He said to them, “I have earnestly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer, 16 for I tell you, I will no longer by any means eat of it until it is fulfilled in God’s Kingdom.” 17 He received a cup, and when he had given thanks, he said, “Take this, and share it among yourselves, 18 for I tell you, I will not drink at all again from the fruit of the vine, until God’s Kingdom comes.”
19 He took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body which is given for you. Do this in memory of me.” 20 Likewise, he took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

1 Corinthians 11:23-24 (WEB) 23 For I received from the Lord that which also I delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus on the night in which he was betrayed took bread. 24 When he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “Take, eat. This is my body, which is broken for you. Do this in memory of me.” 25 In the same way he also took the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink, in memory of me.”

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Nope. Already addressed. There is no definite article in the first verse, in Hebrew. The most accurate translation is NRSV.

I gave you a literal translation of the Hebrew text. I don't know why are you trying to argue with a different translation.

Where in the first chapter of Genesis does it say anything about the earth coming into being? The beginning is "when" God began creating, not the time in which the earth came into existence.

On day 1 God creates the heavens and the earth. “The heavens” refers to everything beyond the earth, outer space. The earth is made but not formed in any specific way, although water is present (and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.). God then speaks light into existence. He then separates the light from the dark and names the light “day” and the dark “night.”

The catch is that both heaven and earth were already there. The earth was there and God simply moved the waters off of it so that the dry land would appear. And heaven was already there too, God just expanded it between the waters and moved the waters out of the way (kind of like what God did with the read sea, separating waters from waters).

The earth absolutely wasn't there before the creation. Nothing was, but God alone. For something to be there, God must first create it.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Adam isn't mentioned in Genesis 1, rather it is "humanity" or "mankind". Male and Female, He creates them.

God first created male Adam, then He created a female out of Adam called Eve. The only humans in paradise are Adam and Eve. They sin, they get kicked out and then they have offspring. That's why Romans 5:12 says this 'Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned'

This is why Adam is first in Jesus' lineage, because all humanity comes from Adam.
1 Cor 15:45 confirms Adam was a first person 'Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.'

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes, "adam" means "man", but in context God created the first man and called him "Adam" (man), and God formed Eve from Adam's rib, and called her "Eve."

No. In context it means what it says. That God created mankind. In his image. That's a population. It never mentions Adam and Eve.

 

[Job 33:6]

I gave you a literal translation of the Hebrew text. I don't know why are you trying to argue with a different translation.

And I shared the Hebrew with you as well, and a Hebrew scholars commentary on it. Not sure how you missed that.

There is no definite article In the first verse.

On day 1 God creates the heavens and the earth. “The heavens” refers to everything beyond the earth, outer space. The earth is made but not formed in any specific way, although water is present (and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the waters.). God then speaks light into existence. He then separates the light from the dark and names the light “day” and the dark “night.”

Nope. again, the heavens are created on day 2.
Genesis 1:6-8 ESV
[6] And God said, “Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters.” [7] And God made the expanse and separated the waters that were under the expanse from the waters that were above the expanse. And it was so. [8] And God called the expanse Heaven. And there was evening and there was morning, the second day.

And God created earth on day 3:
Genesis 1:9-10 ESV
[9] And God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear.” And it was so. [10] God called the dry land Earth, and the waters that were gathered together he called Seas. And God saw that it was good.

The earth absolutely wasn't there before the creation. Nothing was, but God alone. For something to be there, God must first create it.

The Bible says that the earth was tohu wa bohu before God created it. The creation occurs on the days noted above. And God did create heaven and earth, on the days noted.

 

[Job 33:6]

Yes, "adam" means "man", but in context God created the first man and called him "Adam" (man), and God formed Eve from Adam's rib, and called her "Eve."

Luke 3:37-38 (WEB) ... 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those whose sins weren’t like Adam’s disobedience, who is a foreshadowing of him who was to come.

Jude 1:14 (WEB) About these also Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied, saying, “Behold, the Lord came with ten thousands of his holy ones

I am the 7th from my great great great grandfather, but that doesn't mean that he was identified in Genesis 1. These verses don't tell us anything about Genesis 1, they only speak to events that come later in the Bible, like the fall of Genesis 3.

 

[River Jordan]

God created mankind starting with Adam.

That's one interpretation (among many).

 

[setst777]

No. In context it means what it says. That God created mankind. In his image. That's a population. It never mentions Adam and Eve.

I am the 7th from my great great great grandfather, but that doesn't mean that he was identified in Genesis 1. These verses don't tell us anything about Genesis 1, they only speak to events that come later in the Bible, like the fall of Genesis 3.

So, do I understand from you that you do not deny that God created the first man named "Adam?"

And you do not deny that God created Eve from a rib of the man "Adam?"

Genesis 2:20-22
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

When God created mankind, there was no women until God made the first women from the rib of the first man whom God created, whose name was Adam.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Taken literally, [Ötzi, "The Iceman"] would have lived and died in Adam's biblical time—which is problematic because a (secular match) for historical Adam would have lived at the beginning of the Neolithic farming revolution around 12,250 years ago (±150 years).

(Otzi 5350 years before present)

Why would "a secular match for a historical Adam" have lived 12, 250 years ago?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

So, do I understand from you that you do not deny that God created the first man named "Adam?"

And you do not deny that God created Eve from a rib of the man "Adam?"

Genesis 2:20-22
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

When God created mankind, there was no women until God made the first women from the rib of the first man whom God created, whose name was Adam.

They won't admit that, because they made up non-biblical theory that fits what the world tells them is the truth.

 

[AaronClaricus]

Why would "a secular match for a historical Adam" have lived 12, 250 years ago?

About 1000 years before 12250ya that the world heats up to near modern temperature, ice age cultures end and sedentary cultures begin in newly growing forests. Just before 12250ya forests in the middle east start drying up and becoming barren. Around 12250ya the first successful agricultural cultivation.

This preserves the themes of genesis 2-3. A biblical Adam is cursed to work the land and so would an Adamatic man in the secular timeline.

While this wouldn't make Adam the first man who lived or the only man alive. It's very likely that a single man invented agriculture during a time of sudden hardship. So a singular man is sensible for a story set in this time period. This also preserves Eve's theme of child birth since dietary changes affect childbirth.

Placing Adam in the 40th-31st century BCE puts him in an era where he'd walk out of the garden and into Ur, Uruk and Eridu filled with people who know about historical peoples that lived 1000s of years before their present.

 

[Job 33:6]

So, do I understand from you that you do not deny that God created the first man named "Adam?"

I would say that Adam is the first in election. Not necessarily first in terms of biology.

And you do not deny that God created Eve from a rib of the man "Adam?"

Eve was made from Adams side. The Tsela. And that was done in Adam's prophetic dream. Remember, Adam was put into a deep sleep, much like the prophetic dreams of Daniel. So Eve is first in election, theologically or prophetically. Not necessarily biologically.

And this same thing happens to Abraham with the splitting of the sacrificial animals. Abraham enters a deep sleep and experiences a vision just a few chapters later in Genesis.

And remember, there wasn't anesthesia in Adam and Eve time. When Adam enters a deep sleep, we shouldn't be thinking of it in terms of a modern hospital where Adam is being operated on in an emergency room. That's not the proper context for understanding "deep sleep" or, in Hebrew, the tardemah in the Old Testament.

Genesis 2:20-22
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman because she was taken out of Man."

When God created mankind, there were no women until God made the first woman from the rib of the first man whom God created, whose name was Adam.

It doesn't say that there were no other women. Adam was alone in Eden. We don't know about what is going on outside of Eden or who all was out there.

 

[setst777]

I would say that Adam is the first in election. Not necessarily first in terms of biology.


Eve was made from Adams side. The Tsela. And that was done in Adam's prophetic dream. Remember, Adam was put into a deep sleep, much like the prophetic dreams of Daniel. So Eve is first in election, theologically or prophetically. Not necessarily biologically.

And this same thing happens to Abraham with the splitting of the sacrificial animals. Abraham enters a deep sleep and experiences a vision just a few chapters later in Genesis.

And remember, there wasn't anesthesia in Adam and Eve time. When Adam enters a deep sleep, we shouldn't be thinking of it in terms of a modern hospital where Adam is being operated on in an emergency room. That's not the proper context for understanding "deep sleep" or, in Hebrew, the tardemah in the Old Testament.

Your explanation is a rejection of the Biblical Account. There is no prophetic dream in "Genesis 2:20-23." Read it again without changing the Scriptures to suit your own bias. God himself took a rib out of Adam and made Eve.

Genesis 2:20-23
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

It doesn't say that there were no other women. Adam was alone in Eden. We don't know about what is going on outside of Eden or who all was out there.

Adam was the first man created, and Eve was the first female.

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Genesis 2:4-7
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Genesis 5:1-3
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth

Adam was the first man created directly by God; and so, he was called the son of God.

Luke 3:38
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

 

[Job 33:6]

Your explanation is a rejection of the Biblical Account. There is no prophetic dream in "Genesis 2:20-23." Read it again without changing the Scriptures to suit your own bias. God himself took a rib out of Adam and made Eve.

Genesis 2:20-23
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.

Yes, I see it. So where is the conflict between these passages and what I've said?

Adam was the first man created, and Eve was the first female.

The passages you've noted stated that Eve was taken from the rib or side of Adam. I agree with that. But I would go a step further to repeat that Adam went into a deep visionary sleep beforehand. Just like Abraham. And so what you're reading is a about a vision that Adam has. That his body split in some fashion and Eve was made from it.

So it's not about physical creation. It's about a vision that he has.

Genesis 1:27
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Yes, and this passage doesn't mention Adam and Eve. It's about mankind or humanity. Or simply "man".

Genesis 2:4-7
4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Yes. And in the Bible, all people are made of dust. Abraham is made of dust too, also in Genesis. But that doesn't mean that Abraham was the first man, biologically.

 

[Job 33:6]

Genesis 5:1-3
1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth

Genesis 5:1-2 NIV
[1] This is the written account of Adam’s family line. When God created mankind, he made them in the likeness of God. [2] He created them male and female and blessed them. And he named them “Mankind” when they were created.

What translation are you using? And he's, "Adam" is the Hebrew term for "mankind". It's not referring to Adam as an individual. Hence why it says "male and female, he created them". Adam isn't female. It's talking about humanity.

And then yes, Adam lived 130 years. The first 2 verses are introducing the narrative. Then it talks about Adam having a son.

Adam was the first man created directly by God; and so, he was called the son of God.

Luke 3:38
38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

Sure. Son of God isn't a biological term. God has many sons and that doesn't relate to biology. Psalm 82 for example, has many sons of God, but it's not about biology. It's a theological or elected son.

 

[BeyondET]

God first created male Adam, then He created a female out of Adam called Eve. The only humans in paradise are Adam and Eve. They sin, they get kicked out and then they have offspring. That's why Romans 5:12 says this 'Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned'

This is why Adam is first in Jesus' lineage, because all humanity comes from Adam.
1 Cor 15:45 confirms Adam was a first person 'Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.'

Where do you think God was when Cain and Abel brought offerings to Him?

 

[Job 33:6]

@setst777

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

Also, if the verse says "them" and "male and female", you can rest assured that it's not talking about Adam as an individual. Rather it's just talking more broadly about mankind. Unless you think that Adam is transgender with multiple personality disorder.

 

[Job 33:6]

God first created male Adam, then He created a female out of Adam called Eve. The only humans in paradise are Adam and Eve. They sin, they get kicked out and then they have offspring. That's why Romans 5:12 says this 'Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned'

This is why Adam is first in Jesus' lineage, because all humanity comes from Adam.
1 Cor 15:45 confirms Adam was a first person 'Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.'

Yeah, kind of like someone else just responded with, none of this acknowledges the potential for people outside of Eden.

The only humans in Eden are Adam and Eve, but Eden is not equivalent to the world.

And Adam can introduce sin into the world, but that doesn't say anything about whether or not there are already people in the world.

And when it refers to male and female, he created them, it's talking about mankind, it's not talking about Adam and Eve.

The same thing could be said for the fish and the birds in Genesis, or the Stars, God doesn't create just two fishes or two birds.

People assume that when God created humanity, male and female he created them, people assume that this is talking about Adam and Eve, but it doesn't actually say that.

 

[setst777]

setst777 said:
Your explanation is a rejection of the Biblical Account. There is no prophetic dream in "Genesis 2:20-23." Read it again without changing the Scriptures to suit your own bias. God himself took a rib out of Adam and made Eve.

Yes, I see it. So where is the conflict between these passages and what I've said?

The conflict is in your second response as follows:

The passages you've noted stated that Eve was taken from the rib or side of Adam. I agree with that. But I would go a step further to repeat that Adam went into a deep visionary sleep beforehand. Just like Abraham. And so what you're reading is a about a vision that Adam has. That his body split in some fashion and Eve was made from it.

There is nothing in all of the Scriptures that state or teach that what we are reading is about a vision that Adam has. Those are your words.

The Scriptures plainly state that God caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam so he could remove one of Adam's ribs to make a female for him, of which Adam recognized:

Genesis 2:20-23
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

This is not a vision; rather, this actually happened, according to the Scriptures.

1 Corinthians 11:8-9 (WEB) 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man; 9 for man was not created for the woman, but woman for the man.

God created the first man from the dust of the earth, and the first women on earth was made by God from one of Adam's ribs, according to the Scriptures.

So it's not about physical creation. It's about a vision that he has.

That is your own belief, which the Scriptures plainly refute.

Yes, and this passage doesn't mention Adam and Eve. It's about mankind or humanity. Or simply "man".

God created only one man from the dust of the earth, who was named Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45 (WEB) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” [Genesis 2:7] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:47 (WEB) The first man is of the earth, made of dust. The second man is the Lord from heaven.

And there was only one woman that God created from a rib from Adam. From these two, all mankind came forth by reproduction.

1 Corinthians 11:8-9 (WEB) 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man; 9 for man was not created for the woman, but woman for the man.

Yes. And in the Bible, all people are made of dust. Abraham is made of dust too, also in Genesis. But that doesn't mean that Abraham was the first man, biologically.

According to the Scriptures, all children of men are given birth by the female through reproduction. However, the first man, "Adam," was created from the dust of the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:47 (WEB) The first man is of the earth, made of dust.

 

[Job 33:6]

setst777 said:
Your explanation is a rejection of the Biblical Account. There is no prophetic dream in "Genesis 2:20-23." Read it again without changing the Scriptures to suit your own bias. God himself took a rib out of Adam and made Eve.

Yes, God took the rib out of Adam, after first putting Adam into a prophetic dream like sleep. I'm sorry if you've never noticed Adam being put into a tardemah before.

There is nothing in all of the Scriptures that state or teach that what we are reading is about a vision that Adam has. Those are your words.

Except for Adam being put into a tardemah, a deep sleep which involves prophetic visions, such as with Abraham just a few chapters later.

The Scriptures plainly state that God caused a deep sleep to come upon Adam so he could remove one of Adam's ribs to make a female for him, of which Adam recognized:

Yup, in Adams prophetic dream.

Genesis 2:20-23
20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
21 And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;
22 And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man.
23 And Adam said, "This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man."

That's the text.

This is not a vision; rather, this actually happened, according to the Scriptures.

Adam is put into a tardemah his deep sleep and visionary state.

1 Corinthians 11:8-9 (WEB) 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man; 9 for man was not created for the woman, but woman for the man.

Yup, that's what Genesis says.

God created only one man from the dust of the earth, who was named Adam.

1 Corinthians 15:45 (WEB) So also it is written, “The first man, Adam, became a living soul.” [Genesis 2:7] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

Yup, the first man elected by God. And again, all men are made of dust in the old testament. I'm sorry if you've never noticed this. It's not about biology.