6,000 Years?

[John Bauer]

Genesis 3:17 states that adam must toil the earth.
Genesis 3:22 Adam was sent from the garden to till the ground from which he was taken.

Genesis 3:18 says it will bring both thorns and thistles.

The way scientists look for agriculture is by sifting for seeds and pollen. There are places in the middle east that were once wild grain fields, these produce substantially fewer weeds than land which has been "Toiled"(worked, plowed, tilled).

As for the land being dry and barren. Adam is driven out of a forest(genesis 2:9) into a terrain that's not forest. He'd still have access to the rivers which go out of eden and into the flood plains of the middle east. So there's still reason to believe the land he specifically worked was "wet" enough for agriculture. Just not huge closed forests. The general conditions of the middle east and indeed the whole world were drier(cursed) than previous good times(eden).

1. Why were you suggesting that Adam was exiled to a dry and barren landscape?

In answer to this question, you said that Adam was driven into unforested terrain. I have a couple of thoughts on that.

First, you pointed to Genesis 2:9 as evidence that Adam's original home was forested. But this passage does not convey that image—not exactly, anyway. The previous verse said that God had "planted an orchard in the east, in Eden" (v. 8), complete with trees that were "good for food" (v. 9). More conventional translations call this a garden, which captures the broader semantic range of גַּן (gan), but what that word communicates to us in the modern West is very different from what it meant to people in the ancient Near East. It was a lush and cultivated space with a bunch of fruit-bearing trees, which to us is more of an orchard than a garden. And a forest, well, that is something even more different.

Second, you admitted in your answer that the land was sufficiently irrigated by the rivers from Eden, that it was "wet enough for agriculture." This does not answer my question so much as make it all the more compelling.

Also, you said the general conditions of the Middle East were "drier (cursed) than previous good times (Eden)." But what if the favorable conditions were exclusive to the orchard (garden) in Eden, while the region surrounding it was a typical environment for Mesopotamia? What if the land out there was cursed for Adam's sake in the sense that it was "not blessed" like the orchard (garden) in Eden had been? In this scenario, Adam was exiled from this favored sacred space and into lands that were not blessed (such that cursed is a privation of blessed), as the study notes in the New English Translation suggests.

If this view holds exegetically and historically, as it seems to, then there's no need to have the biblical Adam live 12,250 years ago.

2. Why were you looking at Adam as the one who invented agriculture?

Interestingly, you did not answer this question.

 

[Job 33:6]

There are also plenty of Christian scientists whom are YEC.

Creation scientists and other specialists of interest

Creation or evolution? It makes a big difference! Over 10,000 trustworthy articles. Evidence for biblical creation.

creation.com

Project Steve - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Scientists that are YEC make up something like 0.000001% of the worlds scientists. It's an incredibly tiny number.

 

[Vambram]

I’d venture to say that far more scientists aren’t YECs than are and that the ones who are, have less credibility in their respective fields than those who aren’t.

Many, many YEC scientists have lots of credibility. Furthermore, I have zero doubts at all that all of the Scriptures in the Bible, both the OT and the NT, that speak about Adam & Eve and the teaching of Original Sin, all are more rightly interpreted while understanding that the Lord God Almighty created the earth and the rest of the universe thousands of years ago, instead of hundreds of millions or even billions of years in the past.

 

[Vambram]

Scientists that are YEC make up something like 0.000001% of the worlds scientists. It's an incredibly tiny number.

The opinions and interpretations of scientists who believe in evolution don't matter at all to me concerning this topic.

 

[FaithT]

Project Steve - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Scientists that are YEC make up something like 0.000001% of the worlds scientists. It's an incredibly tiny number.

My point exactly.

 

[FaithT]

Many, many YEC scientists have lots of credibility. Furthermore, I have zero doubts at all that all of the Scriptures in the Bible, both the OT and the NT, that speak about Adam & Eve and the teaching of Original Sin, all are more rightly interpreted while understanding that the Lord God Almighty created the earth and the rest of the universe thousands of years ago, instead of hundreds of millions or even billions of years in the past.

0.000001% isn’t many, many.

 

[Vambram]

0.000001% isn’t many, many.

The opinions and interpretations of scientists who believe in evolution don't matter at all to me concerning this topic.

 

[FaithT]

The opinions and interpretations of scientists who believe in evolution don't matter at all to me concerning this topic.

I‘m the OP and opinions of scientists are part of my post.

 

[David Lamb]

Very explicitly so.

And a thousand years as a day. Yep, I cited both those verses.

I'm sorry, but who else was around then to perceive the passage of time at all?

Note that word "as." The verses don't teach that a thousand years is a day or that a day is a thousand years to God.

Genesis wasn't written at Creation. There were plenty of people around by the time it was written.

So I've heard. But I still haven't seen anyone come up with any reasonable basis for saying that each evening-and-moring "day" of creation was 24 solar hours long, when there was no sun to delimit those periods of time. Saying "Oh, but there was light" doesn't signify, because the simple existence of light doesn't create hours and days any more than the existence of water creates ice bergs or cups of tea. Plus Scripture makes no reference to the existence of any non-solar light source that would have served to create "evenings and mornings", leaving "Six Day Creationists" with the disturbing necessity of creating one "ex nihilo". It's bad enough that so many of them feel the need to embrace the repellent notion that "God made everything look old..." as though God was peddling cosmic snake oil.

But Scripture does say that God said, "Let there be light" before He created the sun, moon and stars.

"Literary days" would be a better description. The writer of Genesis needed a unit of measure of some sort to express the idea that the universe was created in stages, and "days' were as good as any.

How long does Scripture say a "day" is for God? Looks like another of those Scriptures that have to be "interpreted away" lest they step on strongly held/weakly formed doctrines.

As I said before, the bible talks about the days of creation each having a morning and an evening.

 

[davetaff]

Note that word "as." The verses don't teach that a thousand years is a day or that a day is a thousand years to God.

Genesis wasn't written at Creation. There were plenty of people around by the time it was written.

But Scripture does say that God said, "Let there be light" before He created the sun, moon and stars.

As I said before, the bible talks about the days of creation each having a morning and an evening.

Hi
Thank you for your post and God said

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light

Verse 2 describes the state of the earth at the end of the flood the light of verse 3 is the light of the world Jesus Christ through whom everything is created the end of this creation will be man in the image of God the body of Jesus Christ who will present tha multitude of believers to God the Father.

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[River Jordan]

There are also plenty of Christian scientists whom are YEC.

Creation scientists and other specialists of interest

Creation or evolution? It makes a big difference! Over 10,000 trustworthy articles. Evidence for biblical creation.

creation.com

But none of them can manage to take their arguments to the community of scientists. There are all sorts of scientific conferences and the like all across the globe every year, tons of professional journals, etc.

But that makes sense since YEC is a religious belief, not a science.

 

[David Lamb]

Hi
Thank you for your post and God said

Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light

Verse 2 describes the state of the earth at the end of the flood the light of verse 3 is the light of the world Jesus Christ through whom everything is created the end of this creation will be man in the image of God the body of Jesus Christ who will present tha multitude of believers to God the Father.

Love and Peace
Dave

You say that the light of Genesis 1:3 is the light of the world Jesus Christ, but that cannot be so, because in verse 3, God says, "Let there be light" - He created light, but Jesus Christ, as you have agreed before, was not created.

 

[davetaff]

You say that the light of Genesis 1:3 is the light of the world Jesus Christ, but that cannot be so, because in verse 3, God says, "Let there be light" - He created light, but Jesus Christ, as you have agreed before, was not created.

Hi David
Thank you for your reply I believe when God said let there be light he was placing Christ at the beginning of creation its through Christ all things are created

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[David Lamb]

Hi David
Thank you for your reply I believe when God said let there be light he was placing Christ at the beginning of creation its through Christ all things are created

Love and Peace
Dave

Yes, it is clear from John 1:1-3 that it is through Christ that all things are created. All things includes light, which Genesis 1:3 talks about God creating. God the Father didn't "place Christ at the beginning of creation." Christ (the Word) was already there with the Father:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

 

[davetaff]

Yes, it is clear from John 1:1-3 that it is through Christ that all things are created. All things includes light, which Genesis 1:3 talks about God creating. God the Father didn't "place Christ at the beginning of creation." Christ (the Word) was already there with the Father:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3 NKJV)

Hi David
Thank you for your reply but Christ is the light of the world

Jhn 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

So Christ is the light of the world so the Father brings the light of the world into the world the world already had plenty of light from the sun

Love and Peace
Dave

 

[RileyG]

Many, many YEC scientists have lots of credibility. Furthermore, I have zero doubts at all that all of the Scriptures in the Bible, both the OT and the NT, that speak about Adam & Eve and the teaching of Original Sin, all are more rightly interpreted while understanding that the Lord God Almighty created the earth and the rest of the universe thousands of years ago, instead of hundreds of millions or even billions of years in the past.

So, in regards to reproduction....was it all...for a lack of a better word....incest?

 

[Vambram]

So, in regards to reproduction....was it all...for a lack of a better word....incest?

That is one way of looking at it. After all, I do believe that Genesis shows that Adam and Eve were actually 2 real humans and that all humans are traced back to them.

 

[RileyG]

That is one way of looking at it. After all, I do believe that Genesis shows that Adam and Eve were actually 2 real humans and that all humans are traced back to them.

Thanks for the answer!

 

[stevevw]

Does anybody have proof that the earth and the entire universe really is 6,000 - ish years old beyond the usual arguments that science has debunked over and over again? Arguments like the rocks in the Grand Canyon or some other such weak examples? I’m looking for reputable scientists who’ve written peer reviewed papers on the subject and gained the support of other reputable scientists?

Yeah metamorphic rocks. But not in the dates of the rocks or the terrain but of the time it took for cultures like the Egyptians and other cultures to cut, shape and build their megaliths lol.

There was a world of megalithic cultures that once ruled all over the earth well before the orthodox timeline that human civilisation began in Mesamotopia 6,000 years ago.

We have evidence that the per dynastic Egyptians themselves are more that 6,000 years old but could go back 15 to 30,000 years. We also have recent evidence of sites like Gobekli Tepe which go back 11 to 12,000 years.

 

[FaithT]

Yeah metamorphic rocks. But not in the dates of the rocks or the terrain but of the time it took for cultures like the Egyptians and other cultures to cut, shape and build their megaliths lol.

There was a world of megalithic cultures that once ruled all over the earth well before the orthodox timeline that human civilisation began in Mesamotopia 6,000 years ago.

We have evidence that the per dynastic Egyptians themselves are more that 6,000 years old but could go back 15 to 30,000 years. We also have recent evidence of sites like Gobekli Tepe which go back 11 to 12,000 years.

So you don’t have any scientific evidence that the earth is 6000 years old either?