500 years of protesting what?

[DeaconDean]

Key point is that the Lutheran Reformation brought about the Bible in the people's language...it brought the Bible to the people!! Just as King Josiah said, "I have found the Book!" The Bible was in effect lost to the people and Luther found it and brought it to them.
Catholics often are discouraged from reading the Bible themselves for fear of "misinterpretation"...this is changing today, but only to a small degree compared to what it should be.

While that is certainly true, however, Martin Luther also gave Protestants one of the greatest theological revolutions in the world:

Sola Fide!

He also pioneered "The Bondage of the Will"!

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Is one to be condemned for not following Ellen G White?

Has her "prophesy" proven in error?

Or, is it still a "wait and see" thing?

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." -Deut. 18:22 (KJV)

There is a thing called an "open end" prophesy.

If I say on December 8th, 2017 the stock market will hit the 30,000 mark. And it don't happen, then that makes me a "false prophet".

However, if I were to say that the stock market will hit 30,000, with no date attached, that is an "open end" prophesy.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[GingerBeer]

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." -Deut. 18:22 (KJV)

Truth.

Mind you, Ellen G White didn't claim that everything she wrote was inspired, but many Seventh Day Adventists say that at least some of her writings are inspired. And they have The Clear Word bible which puts many of Ellen White's comments into the text of the bible. So I suppose that some of Ellen's writings have found their way into a "bible" of sorts.

 

[DeaconDean]

Truth.

Mind you, Ellen G White didn't claim that everything she wrote was inspired, but many Seventh Day Adventists say that at least some of her writings are inspired. And they have The True Word bible which puts many of Ellen White's comments into the text of the bible. So I suppose that some of Ellen's writings have found their way into a "bible" of sorts.

Your right, but it still does not mean she was wrong either.

Remember: "Even a stopped clock is right twice a day!"

When people mention her, the most thought of thing is the "rapture" theory.

It can't be proven, but by the same token, it can't be disproven.

The best advice is to take a "wait and see" attitude.

I personally don't put a lot of stock in SDA theology, their "strict" adherence to a Sabbath Observance is tantamount to "legalism".

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[BobRyan]

Key point is that the Lutheran Reformation brought about the Bible in the people's language...it brought the Bible to the people!!

Indeed.. for Germany.

Just as Wycliffe had done centuries before that for England!

Just as King Josiah said, "I have found the Book!" The Bible was in effect lost to the people and Luther found it and brought it to them.
Catholics often are discouraged from reading the Bible themselves for fear of "misinterpretation"...this is changing today, but only to a small degree compared to what it should be.

In the sola scriptura thread that is currently active that is one point raised by a Catholic poster -- that there would be misinterpretation without Catholic church tradition and guidance.

 

[BobRyan]

Truth.

Mind you, Ellen G White didn't claim that everything she wrote was inspired

That is true - and neither do SDAs claim that everything she said or wrote in a letter to a friend was a direct vision from God.

 

[BobRyan]

And they have The True Word bible which puts many of Ellen White's comments into the text of the bible. So I suppose that some of Ellen's writings have found their way into a "bible" of sorts.

I have not heard of "the True Word" Bible - there is a "Clear Word" paraphrase... so not an actual Bible translation at all. And is a King James Bible that has study-bible-notes in it where the notes are from something Ellen White wrote -- we also have study-Bible versions that are NASB and NIV where the study notes are not from any SDA source at all.

I don't know of anyone claiming that a NASB or NIV or Scoefield Bible is a case where the "authors of the study notes - are now part of the Bible canon" ... seems a bit extreme to make such suggestions, other than for emotional effect.

 

[BobRyan]

As I said before, Acts 17:11 isn't about Sola Scriptura.

until you read the text and notice the details in it.

Repeatedly glossing over every detail in the text and adding "it does not mean that" is not a compelling form of argument.


11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

a great many Protestants will "notice the details" in the text above that show it to be a perfect example of "Sola Scriptura" being used in NT times.

 

[BobRyan]

What is The Clear Word Bible is not a SDA bible?

It is not a Bible at all - it is a paraphrase and there is no SDA denomination promotion of this as a Bible translation. A paraphrase by Jack Blanco originally written for his children and grandchildren that became a popular book. But it is not a Bible translation at all nor do SDAs claim as a denomination every text book written by any one of our 20 million members.

Members have free will and can write such texts if they wish - and then try to sell them ... but as in this case - such paraphrases are not the work of the denomination itself, and such free-wheeling paraphrases are not Bible translations no matter who authors them.

 

[BobRyan]

Is one to be condemned for not following Ellen G White?

Not according to SDA teaching.

In the SDA denomination a minister is expected to teach SDA doctrine - one point of which is that Ellen White passes the Bible test of a prophet. But non-SDAs are not expected to affirm that same point and not condemned for rejecting Ellen White as a prophet.

Which is still off the topic of the OP unless your argument is that the only gap to be resolved is the one defined by differences between Catholicism and SDA doctrine.

 

[Albion]

until you read the text and notice the details in it.

Repeatedly glossing over every detail in the text and adding "it does not mean that" is not a compelling form of argument.


11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

Look...examining Scripture is not the same as Sola Scriptura. Not even close.

 

[BobRyan]

Look...examining Scripture is not the same as Sola Scriptura. Not even close.

Your feelings are of course welcomed on that idea... but I am going to stick with the actual details in the text itself since it is expressed perfectly for the "sola scriptura" argument.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

While that is certainly true, however, Martin Luther also gave Protestants one of the greatest theological revolutions in the world:

Sola Fide!

He also pioneered "The Bondage of the Will"!

God Bless

Till all are one.

I am a conservative Lutheran church member yet have not read Bondage of the Will. However, the title is a misnomer...through Christ our bonds have been broken...He gives us His Spirit to throw off the chains and defeat the will. Yes, the sinful human nature remains with us on this side of eternity, and Luther may be referring to this in his book title, but we call upon the Name of Christ to overcome. The sinful nature is no longer an excuse for sinning and therefore requires repentance and a prayer for a right spirit and strong Christ-like will.
As for Luther giving us a theology, I say only in that he in effect gave us back our Bibles, the very Word of God to study and follow as God's Spirit enables us. Even Luther said he wished that all his words would perish and God's Word remain.

 

[OzSpen]

Since there is at least some focus this month on the reformation, the protestant reformation and how wide the GAP is between protestant doctrine and Catholicism - lets work out some of the details.

While Luther may have "started" with 95 objections to selling indulgences.. that is not the sum total of the "gap" between protestantism and catholicism.

Bob,

A fair number of the theses had to do with the selling of indulgences, but the word, indulgences, appears for the first time in thesis 21 of the 95 theses. There are some other theses that do not deal with indulgences. Approx. 1/3 of the theses do not relate directly to indulgences.

Foundational in Protestantism is this - (at the very least).

1. Sola Scriptura - Acts 17:11 (testing all doctrine and practice against the standard of the Bible instead of Bible+traditions-of-men). Col 2:22 "—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men"

2. Grace alone (mankind is saved by grace through faith - Ephesians 2) not saved by powers of sacrament or powers in a "rite" or ritual plus ...

3. Faith alone - justified by faith alone - meaning that when the lost person comes to Christ - they are saved not on the basis of good works done as a lost person - but saved by faith alone.

4. Christ alone - "there is no OTHER name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" -- so then no earthly priest or pope stands between us and Christ who is the "one mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5-6

There are 5 Solas associated with Reformation theology:

Oz

 

[Mountainmike]

You clearly don't understand Catholicism, or the early church, or even the meaning of tradition - just a silly caricature of all of them.

If you did understand any if it, you would know Sola scriptura IS a self refuting fallacy -itself a man made tradition originating in the reformation - the fallacy that led to 10000 schisms, and is the reason Protestants disagree on every substantive aspect of doctrine. Luther despaired of the monster he created " every milkmaid now has their own doctrine" - precisely because of sola scriptura,

Meanwhile the apostles and early church handed on faith by the process of paradosis ( translated as tradition , you clearly don't know what it means ) - and part of that teaching handed by apostles was the Eucharist is the real flesh of Jesus only valid if appointed by bishops in succession - ask ignatius disciple of John the apostle.

So stop reading the anticathokic myth book, and study real Christianity instead - the early church. The pillar and foundation of truth. Without the Jesus appointed authority of the Catholic Church you would not even have a New Testament,

Since there is at least some focus this month on the reformation, the protestant reformation and how wide the GAP is between protestant doctrine and Catholicism - lets work out some of the details.

While Luther may have "started" with 95 objections to selling indulgences.. that is not the sum total of the "gap" between protestantism and catholicism.

Foundational in Protestantism is this - (at the very least).

1. Sola Scriptura - Acts 17:11 (testing all doctrine and practice against the standard of the Bible instead of Bible+traditions-of-men). Col 2:22 "—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men"

2. Grace alone (mankind is saved by grace through faith - Ephesians 2) not saved by powers of sacrament or powers in a "rite" or ritual plus ...

3. Faith alone - justified by faith alone - meaning that when the lost person comes to Christ - they are saved not on the basis of good works done as a lost person - but saved by faith alone.

4. Christ alone - "there is no OTHER name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" -- so then no earthly priest or pope stands between us and Christ who is the "one mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5-6

We come boldly to the throne of grace - directly to God in prayer. No earthly mediator or Pope between.

(And of course both sides agree that all the glory goes to God alone for the plan of salvation)

===============================================

I am not sure that whatever meetings are going on this month and next .. in Germany are going to find agreement on the points listed above.

In addition there is in the "gap" between the Bible and catholicism

1. Prayers to the dead -- called "the Dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4.
2. Claims to confect the "body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ in the mass" - by contrast Christ was offered up "once for all" Hebrews 10 and no earthly priest has been given the powers to confect the "body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ in the mass"
3. The "doctrine of discovery" regarding what Catholics are allowed to do to the natives of newly discovered lands in cases where those natives refuse to convert to Catholicism
4. Infallibility of Catholic church councils and popes.
5. Authorizing violence against Christians for "thought crimes" for doctrinal differences with the Papacy.
6. Editing the Sabbath Commandment to point it to week-day-1
7. Apocryphal books injected into the Bible canon -- (books that even Jerome declared were not legitmately part of the Canon of scripture)
8. The Pope's claim to in any way be the head or leader of any denomination on earth - other than his own denomination - the Roman Catholic Church.
9. Purgatory -- does not exist according to the Bible but the RCC promotes it anyway.
10. Praying to angels
11. Bowing down before images to pray to and to promise to serve those whom they represent.
12. The idea that Catholic Church tradition holds equal weight to scripture or that an understanding of scripture that does not agree with the RCC is by definition incorrect.
13. Monastic celibate orders that appear to have promoted certain forms of sin at some level within the group.
14. "power" in the bishop or the priest to give sacraments power to mark the soul, or effect the New Birth, or forgive sins.. etc.

I am probably missing a few of the topics in "the gap" between Catholicism and Protestantism
==================================

So then what are the odds that the folks in Germany are ever going to be able to close the gap on such key doctrinal points of difference?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

You clearly don't understand Catholicism, or the early church, or even the meaning of tradition - just a silly caricature of all of them.

If you did understand any if it, you would know Sola scriptura IS a self refuting fallacy - a man made tradition originating in the reformation.

Meanwhile the apostles a s early church handed on faith by the process of paradosis ( translated as tradition , you clearly don't know what it means ) - and part of that teaching handed by apostles was the Eucharist is the real flesh of Jesus only valid if appointed by bishops in succession.

So stop reading the anticathokic myth book, and study real Christianity instead - the early church. The pillar and foundation of truth,

Wondering if you have read and re-read the Bible in its entirety yet...

 

[Mountainmike]

Better than that.

I have studied what the early fathers by whose authority to " bind and loose" the New Testament even exists - what they tell us it means. And that is poles apart from what Protestants say it means.

I am not a cradle catholic - I came in from Protestant and evangelical, and study of the early church shows how wrong Protestants got it - a journey that leads back to Rome.

Wondering if you have read and re-read the Bible in its entirety yet...

Wondering if you have read and re-read the Bible in its entirety yet...

 

[GingerBeer]

It is not a Bible at all

If it is not a bible, as you say, then why is it called The Clear Word Bible in advertising. And why is it listed among "bibles" on AdventistBookCenter.com?

And if it is not promoted by the Seventh Day Adventist church then why was it published by The Review and Herald Publishing company which was a Seventh Day Adventist church owned publishing house? And why is it for sale in AdventistBookCenter.com and at the Seventh Day Adventist book shop which is a part of The Western Australia Seventh Day Adventist Church Conference Office?

Furthermore why do you say that a paraphrase means it is not a bible? "The Living Bible" is a paraphrase but it is still a bible. And why does "the clear word" table of contents list all the books of the bible that are accepted by Seventh Day Adventists and why is every verse that is in a KJV also in "The Clear Word" too.

The advertising gives this example of how "the clear word" is good at clarifying the meaning of KJV verses

"Incline my heart unto thy testimonies, and not to covetousness. Turn away mine eyes from beholding vanity; and quicken thou me in thy way" (Psalm 119: 36, 37, KJV).

"Turn my heart toward your law more than toward accumulating riches. Help me not to desire worthless trinkets, but give me more desire for your word" (Psalm 119: 36, 37, TCW).​

The publishers obviously intend "The Clear Word" to be used as a bible even if it is not perceived as a bible suitable for serious and detailed analytical study it is at the very least regarded as a bible suitable for devotional reading.

 

[GingerBeer]

non-SDAs are not expected to affirm that same point and not condemned for rejecting Ellen White as a prophet.

Exactly where does the bible say that affirming Ellen G White as a prophet is needed for church membership and for holding a position as a church officer? How is sola scriptura affirmed by Seventh Day Adventists when acceptance of Ellen G White's allegedly inspired writings is required to remain as a church officer and to remain in good standing as a church member?

 

[klutedavid]

You clearly don't understand Catholicism, or the early church, or even the meaning of tradition - just a silly caricature of all of them.

If you did understand any if it, you would know Sola scriptura IS a self refuting fallacy -itself a man made tradition originating in the reformation - the fallacy that led to 10000 schisms, and is the reason Protestants disagree on every substantive aspect of doctrine. Luther despaired of the monster he created " every milkmaid now has their own doctrine" - precisely because of sola scriptura,

Meanwhile the apostles and early church handed on faith by the process of paradosis ( translated as tradition , you clearly don't know what it means ) - and part of that teaching handed by apostles was the Eucharist is the real flesh of Jesus only valid if appointed by bishops in succession - ask ignatius disciple of John the apostle.

So stop reading the anticathokic myth book, and study real Christianity instead - the early church. The pillar and foundation of truth. Without the Jesus appointed authority of the Catholic Church you would not even have a New Testament,

Hello MountainMike.

The protestant brand has many variations in doctrine, but the Catholic church also has many variations in doctrine. Please explain why you accuse the Protestant churches, of the very same impurity that the Catholic church has written all over it?