500 years of protesting what?

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

As we both know - a great many Protestants will argue that the above is a perfect example of "Sola Scriptura" being used in NT times.

I would be very disappointed if I were to encounter many Protestants who actually did think that.

Welcome to CF. Every thread on Sola Scriptura has a few dozen posts making that point about Acts 17:11

 

[BobRyan]

Welcome to CF. Every thread on Sola Scriptura has a few dozen posts making that point about Acts 17:11

By contrast - That is very different from "I found these three books and they were all helpful".

Those folks in Acts 17:11 weren't even Christians at all. Some were nonChristian Jews and some were nonChristian Gentiles (possibly believers in the God of the Bible but not Christian).

It could hardly be argued that the text really said "they believed whatever someone from another religion told to them believe -- certainly no checking out the teaching to see IF the Bible approved or condemned it"

11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

It is possible we agree on at least this point.

 

[Albion]

Welcome to CF. Every thread on Sola Scriptura has a few dozen posts making that point about Acts 17:11

You mean people doing what you did here, you mean? I don't think that's so, but if it were...those people would be mistaken about the matter and not representative of Protestant thinking, that's all.

 

[Brian Mcnamee]

Were at least some of Ellen G White's writings inspired by God?

a little leaven leavens the whole lump. The best lies are accepted surrounded by many true statements. I have watched many 7th day Adventist recruiting videos. They never say who they are and start you off with many basic simple Biblical truths and get you nodding ok. Slowly and subtly they steer you in another direction. At one prophecy event they had promoted they did not identify themselves as SDA. I looked up the bio of the speaker and found he was a SDA apologist. They will not start off with telling you they believe Sun worship is the mark of the beast but this is what they believe. So if a group disguises itself and tries to lead you to a new wind of doctrine I would be very suspect of them. Ellen White is not scriptural.

 

[Halbhh]

In the last year I've actually spent time carefully reading a couple of key parts of the Catholic catechism (the sections on justification and on merit), and additionally I've grown close to a very good friend who is Catholic and seems to have a very in depth knowledge of Catholic stuff and teaching and doctrines, and we've spent now over 15 or 20 hours in in-depth discussion about theology/doctrine stuff (as part of the perhaps 50 hours of talking we've done)

I've come to the realization there is very little significant difference in mainstream protestant and mainstream Catholic doctrines.

There is a natural human tendency to seek out differences and argue of course!

We naturally tend as humans to emphasize little differences and highlight them, and magnify and amplify them.

Nonetheless, majorities all believe in the wording of the Apostle's Creed (reading 'catholic' as meaning universal, and that we are all saved by Grace from above, from God, and not from works, nor by men, etc., and we all already agree on that (if the person has learned the actual real content of their actual church doctrine in some details, accurately). We already agree that as Christians we are to do things Christ said to do. That's mainstream on both sides.

Just a fact.

Or course there are voices claiming some other stuff. There are always people that disagree, in all times, places, etc., until the final day.

Of course anyone that wants to try to find differences to emphasize can find them with any other human on Earth, and argue endlessly.

But why should we?

I think the Body of Christ is already unified!

Everyone that truly believes in Christ as Savior, Christ risen, Christ Who will come again, they are already my full brothers and sisters in Christ, already, and always have been.

 

[friend of]

Jesus did say "the one who keeps my commands is the one who loves me"

 

[Albion]

I've come to the realization there is very little significant difference in mainstream protestant and mainstream Catholic doctrines.

There is a natural human tendency to seek out differences and argue of course!

My perception of it, FWIW, is that there is more agreement on the primary doctrines such as are covered in the Creeds, but there still are significant differences on other, trickier ones such as deal with the sacraments, the ministry, and the basis for our beliefs. Those provide the most contentious issues that divide us and they are not unimportant.

 

[Halbhh]

My perception of it, FWIW, is that there is more agreement on the primary doctrines such as are covered in the Creeds, but there still are significant differences on other, trickier ones such as deal with the sacraments, the ministry, and the basis for our beliefs. Those provide the most contentious issues that divide us and they are not unimportant.

Quite right, but.....well, I've been married about, let's see, I guess 14 years about, and I've noticed that a key thing to do is that you don't seek to emphasize your differences.

You married because you agree on some key things (a 'creed' if you like), and not because you agreed on all things, because that never was, even if it seemed that way for an infatuated year or whatever.

See? You emphasize love.

That's what works.

It's even like this -- it works well if and only if we forgive and love, and only if we do those, and then it works great.

So we remain having differences, but by His grace, we can love and continue to love.

Still, I think it's a key fact that it's already true my brothers and sisters are in most all churches, regardless of 'doctrines', because they believe in Christ.

 

[ViaCrucis]

If you read the US Constitution and the articles of confederation and then look today at how the constitution is interpreted you can conclude that America has changed its understanding and declares in many instances things that contradict the original intent. If you look at the scriptures VS the traditions you can see again the same thing.

Why would we care about the Articles of Confederation beyond their being an historical foot note? The United States of America is governed by her Constitution, which replaced the Articles because the government we had under the Articles didn't work--we drafted a new government which took effect with the ratification of the Constitution and its first ten amendments.

Further, the Constitution by necessity must be updated over time, and the framers of the Constitution built that into the Constitution. The first ten amendments are precisely that, amendments--additions and changes--to the Constitution. If the Constitution was an unalterable text then we wouldn't have the guaranteed rights to freedom of speech, religion, the press, or assembly as all these are guaranteed to us by the First Amendment to the Constitution. If the Constitution was unalterable then this portion of Section 2 of Article 4 would still be in effect:

"No Person held to Service or Labour in one State, under the Laws thereof, escaping into another, shall, in Consequence of any Law or Regulation therein, be discharged from such Service or Labour, but shall be delivered up on Claim of the Party to whom such Service or Labour may be due."

This paragraph was what gave Southern States the right to take back runaway slaves seeking safety and freedom in the Northern States, and it was struck out of the Constitution by the Thirteenth Amendment which abolished slavery in the United States.

Your analogy doesn't work because the Constitution is supposed to be an alterable text, which is edited and changed as need arises; but it can't be edited easily, which is why it has built into it also the balance of powers between the three branches of government. This same Constitution, Article 3, establishes the judicial branch of the government with the specific powers of interpreting the Constitution. And it is precisely the Supreme Court's use of its Constitutionally given powers which has led to things such as the ending of anti-miscegenation laws, and outlawing segregation, and striking down other Jim Crow forms of discrimination. Without it then there'd be no balance of power which is necessary to protect the people.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Albion]

See? You emphasize love.
That's what works.
It's even like this -- it works well if and only if we forgive and love, and only if we do those, and then it works great.

So we remain having differences, but by His grace, we can love and continue to love.

Of course. We can hardly quarrel with that statement.

However, I think there's room to disagree with this other one you posted:

"...there is very little significant difference in mainstream protestant and mainstream Catholic doctrines"

 

[Halbhh]

Of course. We can hardly quarrel with that statement.

However, I think there's room to disagree with this other one you posted:

"...there is very little significant difference in mainstream protestant and mainstream Catholic doctrines"

I can agree with that. If you like it's possible to magnify differences. I'm saying we need to notice when we are magnifying differences. See, I realize that other people in my congregation do not have to have all the same thoughts about Genesis chapter 1 as I have, but they can be my full and true brothers and sisters regardless of their own ideas about Genesis 1.

 

[Albion]

I can agree with that. If you like it's possible to magnify differences. I'm saying we need to notice when we are magnifying differences. See, I realize that other people in my congregation do not have to have all the same thoughts about Genesis chapter 1 as I have, but they can be my full and true brothers and sisters regardless of their own ideas about Genesis 1.

I'd agree that much of the debate over exactly how to understand Genesis 1 is tiresome and overdone. Yes, I do have my own view and I understand the others that are often put forth, but I do think it's overdone. HOWEVER, I do not think that those other areas of disagreement that I mentioned in my previous post (there could be more added, too) are similar to that.

These--the sacraments, the ministry, and the basis for what we dogmatize--ARE important, in part because they impact other doctrines, unlike the literal vs figurative views on the opening part of Genesis. The Creeds were written prior to them becoming hot issues, but they are not trivialities IMO.

 

[Halbhh]

I'd agree that much of the debate over exactly how to understand Genesis 1 is tiresome and overdone. Yes, I do have my own view and I understand the others that are often put forth, but I do think it's overdone. HOWEVER, I do not think that those other areas of disagreement that I mentioned in my previous post (there could be more added, too) are similar to that.

These--the sacraments, the ministry, and the basis for what we dogmatize--ARE important, in part because they impact other doctrines, unlike the literal vs figurative views on the opening part of Genesis. The Creeds were written prior to them becoming hot issues, but they are not trivialities IMO.

Yes, there are some notably different ideas about the elements, but notice this -- it's not up to us, finally, because He is the one that does this for us, not us. So, because of that, it's not...important, finally, what I think is happening, because He is the one doing the work, not me.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

As we both know - a great many Protestants will argue that the above is a perfect example of "Sola Scriptura" being used in NT times.

I would be very disappointed if I were to encounter many Protestants who actually did think that.

Welcome to CF. Every thread on Sola Scriptura has a few dozen posts making that point about Acts 17:11

You mean people doing what you did here, you mean? I don't think that's so

Yes exactly - quoting the text and "pointing to the details in it" instead of glossing over the details.

Surely you have "noticed" the Sola Scriptura thread where this Acts 17:11 detail is pointed out "repeatedly".

No point in trying to "blame it all on me" -- it is an obvious fact on this board.

 

[BobRyan]

a little leaven leavens the whole lump. The best lies are accepted surrounded by many true statements. I have watched many 7th day Adventist recruiting videos.

Is that the new slang for "evangelism" these days?

If so - it is a new one on me.

They never say who they are and start you off with many basic simple Biblical truths

It is not that difficult to see my religious affiliation in CF profile (it shows up on all my posts as well)... But you are right about the Biblical truths that they present. They do present them.

In any case - the point of this thread is about the gap that could or could not be addressed between Catholics and Protestants... (or were you arguing that SDAs are the only protestants so it must be the gap between Catholicism and the SDA set of doctrines? IF so that is a pretty extreme position on your part).

 

[BobRyan]

My perception of it, FWIW, is that there is more agreement on the primary doctrines such as are covered in the Creeds, but there still are significant differences on other, trickier ones such as deal with the sacraments, the ministry, and the basis for our beliefs. Those provide the most contentious issues that divide us and they are not unimportant.

And a few of them listed in the OP.

 

[Albion]

Yes, there are some notably different ideas about the elements, but notice this -- it's not up to us, finally, because He is the one that does this for us, not us. So, because of that, it's not...important, finally, what I think is happening, because He is the one doing the work, not me.

That merely scratches the surface of what I referred to, however.

 

[Halbhh]

2. Grace alone (mankind is saved by grace through faith - Ephesians 2) not saved by powers of sacrament or powers in a "rite" or ritual plus ...

Because we do believe in scripture, because of that belief, we.....

.....see.....

...the scripture reads like this --


8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

And verse 10 can surprise those who are not used to reading through....

But verse 10 accords perfectly with the epistles of Peter, John, James....and Paul, and....

....Christ, our Lord,

In His Words, in John chapter 15 --

John 15 NIV

And this is how seeming differences disappear!



(Even for Martin Luther too. We can learn about Martin Luther, and what Luther was speaking to -- such things as the practice of trying to earn salvation in some degree (reduce the duration of purgatory, etc.) by purchasing indulgences. Then, with that context, that understanding, we can even realize just what Luther was trying to say, the context to which he wrote. At that time, they really needed verses 8 and 9 above! Today....we need to include verse 10, finally, for today, in this modern time!)

 

[Albion]

Surely you have "noticed" the Sola Scriptura thread where this Acts 17:11 detail is pointed out "repeatedly".

No point in trying to "blame it all on me" -- it is an obvious fact on this board.

By now, I don't know what point you are trying to make. Acts 17:11 doesn't have anything to do with the truth or falsehood of Sola Scriptura. So if someone thinks it does--he's mistaken, that's all. There is no point in squabbling over the number of people who might understand or, OTOH, misunderstand.

 

[BobRyan]

Because we do believe in scripture, because of that belief, we.....
.....see.....
...the scripture reads like this --

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

And verse 10 can surprise those who are not used to reading through....

But verse 10 accords perfectly with the epistles of Peter, John, James....and Paul, and....
....Christ, our Lord,

Agreed.

Vs 8,9,10 all of them important.