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Halbhh

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That merely scratches the surface of what I referred to, however.

But pointing out the reality that men cannot make the elements valid, but only God does. Christ, not us. That's the answer we all need in all the churches. It's He Who does the sacrament. He, not us. We are only trying to get in the correct relation to Him. But if the pastor or priest makes an error, or fails to have the right attitude, this does not block God. He cannot be blocked. This is what we all need to learn. This will help the various churches, this distinction.
 
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BobRyan

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By now, I don't know what point you are trying to make. Acts 17:11 doesn't have anything to do with the truth or falsehood of Sola Scriptura.

How in the world does a perfect example of the very "sola scriptura" testing we are talking about - as we see in in Acts 17:11... "not have anything to do with it'??

Is that a by faith alone statement?
 
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Albion

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But pointing out the reality that men cannot make the elements valid, but only God does. Christ, not us. That's the answer we all need in all the churches. It's He Who does the sacrament. He, not us.
As I noted before, I had referred to a number of areas in which Christians of different denominations disagree. The nature of the sacraments was only one of them. And now you've responded by taking up one issue that's involved with one of the sacraments as though that is the entire issue there.

I had not said anything about the elements changing or who does it. So that is why I later said that turning the discussion in that direction isn't at all in keeping with what I was talking about.
 
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Albion

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How in the world does a perfect example of the very "sola scriptura" testing
That's your opinion and I am sure that it's shared with other Seventh Day Adventists, but that isn't the way that particular verse is understood by me or most Christians, OK?

Consequently, for you to continue to verbally pound the table and insist that you are right doesn't do anything to advance this discussion.
 
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Halbhh

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As I noted before, I had referred to a number of areas in which Christians of different denominations disagree. The nature of the sacraments was only one of them. And now you've responded by taking up one issue that's involved with one of the sacraments as though that is the entire issue there.

I had not said anything about the elements changing or who does it. So that is why I later said that turning the discussion in that direction isn't at all in keeping with what I was talking about.

ah, ok. Return to the questions you prefer of course! I'm surely not trying to address anything other than solely the questions I'm pointing at -- that we needn't pay as much attention to differences as we do, and picking any single relevant one could be a useful question to consider, but only if one wants to!
 
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Albion

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Well, by turning to one issue that's involved with one sacrament, you reduced a large and significant range of disputes down to what looks a minor issue that oughtn't be so contentious. Doing that surely would make it easier to argue that Christians of different persuasions have less to argue about than they think.

What I pointed to is not, in fact, that simple or narrow. That's all that I was saying above.
 
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redleghunter

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If you read the US Constitution and the articles of confederation and then look today at how the constitution is interpreted you can conclude that America has changed its understanding and declares in many instances things that contradict the original intent. If you look at the scriptures VS the traditions you can see again the same thing.
Extreme eisegesis is used by our judicial branch of government.
 
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GingerBeer

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I keep saying they were
Why are those inspired writings from Ellen G White not added to Seventh Day Adventist bibles. Mormons add Joseph Smith's allegedly inspired books to their printed bibles. Mormons appear to have the courage of their convictions about Joseph Smith's allegedly inspired books.
 
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GingerBeer

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a little leaven leavens the whole lump. The best lies are accepted surrounded by many true statements. I have watched many 7th day Adventist recruiting videos. They never say who they are and start you off with many basic simple Biblical truths and get you nodding ok. Slowly and subtly they steer you in another direction. At one prophecy event they had promoted they did not identify themselves as SDA. I looked up the bio of the speaker and found he was a SDA apologist. They will not start off with telling you they believe Sun worship is the mark of the beast but this is what they believe. So if a group disguises itself and tries to lead you to a new wind of doctrine I would be very suspect of them. Ellen White is not scriptural.
Scripture warns against prophets who lead people to worship other gods and it is interesting that groups like Jehovah's witnesses lead people to worship the sort of God that Islam and Judaism teach. Seventh Day Adventists teach the trinity so their views are not the same as Jehovah's witnesses but then there is this idea that Ellen G White wrote some things under inspiration and that ought to be very carefully examined by anybody hearing Seventh Day Adventist teaching. Scripture also warns of false prophets who give prophetic predictions that do not come true and in the new testament the warning about the many false prophets that are in the world also has relevance to any enquiry into the status of Ellen G White's allegedly inspired writings.
 
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christianforumsuser

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Lots of people worship people as idols and the people around them...celebrities...parents...money and so-called clean activities like clean parties or clean music and saving oneself till marriage
So does that make them *not* false prophets somehow?
If that's what the Bible says to do...great. If that's all the Bible said...and approved such...but while so many people either read Scripture with their own ideas of their group or don't even pick up a Bible but quote their pastor or friends...
 
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BobRyan

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Scripture warns against prophets who lead people to worship other gods and it is interesting that groups like Jehovah's witnesses lead people to worship the sort of God that Islam and Judaism teach.

Hint: God is the God of Judaism -- remember it is "His" Bible.
As for Jehovah's Witnesses - I don't think any of them has ever claimed to be a prophet.

Seventh Day Adventists teach the trinity so their views are not the same as Jehovah's witnesses

True we do teach the doctrine of the Triune Godhead -- Father, Son and Holy Spirit... one God in Three Persons.

We also teach that there are only 66 books in the Bible - so we are not Catholic.
And we support what the Bible says about prophets ... rather than ignoring it.

In the NT the statement is made about the Church at Corinth "when you gather together - each one has a revelation" .. So it is not as if the Bible (written by prophets) is "death on prophets".

Which gets us to "Give me the Bible AND the Words IN the Bible"

=============================

But back to the OP -- I don't think the gathering in Germany is going to be about closing the "Gap" between Seventh-day Adventists and Catholicism. Might turn into that at some point - but it would surprise me if it did.
 
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BobRyan

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If that's all the Bible said...and approved such...but while so many people either read Scripture with their own ideas of their group or don't even pick up a Bible but quote their pastor or friends...

Which is a popular trend to be sure - but doing such things would be the death of Protestantism.
 
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BobRyan

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Why are those inspired writings from Ellen G White not added to Seventh Day Adventist bibles.

A. We don't have our own Bible... we use KJV or NKJV or NASB or ... etc.
B. There are many prophets -- inspired messages-from-God prophets in both the OT and the NT that do not author a single book of the Bible. Philip's 4 daughters in the NT... all prophets but no books of the Bible. All the members of the church of Corinth - Paul says they were prophets and yet they have no books of the Bible. Agabus in the NT ... a prophet but no books of the Bible written by him.

Is it your argument that the NT saints "lacked the courage of their convictions" because they did not make certain to get what those prophets wrote and said -- into the canon of scripture? There is not one single text in scripture that says that if you know of a prophet of God and do not insert their teaching in to sacred canon "you lack the courage of your convictions"... and we all know it.

I prefer the Bible "AND the words IN the Bible"
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

As we both know - a great many Protestants will argue that the above is a perfect example of "Sola Scriptura" being used in NT times.

I would be very disappointed if I were to encounter many Protestants who actually did think that.

Welcome to CF. Every thread on Sola Scriptura has a few dozen posts making that point about Acts 17:11

You mean people doing what you did here, you mean? I don't think that's so

Yes exactly - quoting the text and "pointing to the details in it" instead of glossing over the details.

Surely you have "noticed" the Sola Scriptura thread where this Acts 17:11 detail is pointed out "repeatedly".

No point in trying to "blame it all on me" -- it is an obvious fact on this board.



By now, I don't know what point you are trying to make. Acts 17:11 doesn't have anything to do with the truth or falsehood of Sola Scriptura.

How in the world does a perfect example of the very "sola scriptura" testing we are talking about - as we see in in Acts 17:11... "not have anything to do with it'??

Is that a by faith alone statement?

because as it is now - this is pretty obvious...

11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

were we simply "not supposed to notice"???

That's your opinion and I am sure that it's shared with other Seventh Day Adventists

And a great many people on this forum -- as we already saw in those many "sola scriptura" threads.
 
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BobRyan

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Scripture warns against prophets who lead people to worship other gods

True - the Bible condemns the act of following false prophets and it also condemns the act of ignoring God's prophets.

Both actions are condemned in the Bible.

That is the easy part.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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If both sides come together on that point in Germany and condemn all violence of history committed by either Protestant or Catholic groups as being "sinful" and "crimes against humanity" and not at all "infallible" (thus also condemning Lateran IV with all of its "extermination of heretics" laws) - I think both sides "'win" -- so also does humanity.

Do you think the Catholic position will do that? Because there is no "infallible torture commands" among the Protestants - they are free to condemn all of it at no risk at all to Protestant doctrine.

I think you present an interesting quandary for the Roman Catholic. The exact nature of the third canon I will leave for them to discuss, though I can't imagine modern Catholics exactly wanting to promote that sort of thing today nor the Popes today ever giving authority to do so. I do think this places in jeopardy the Catholic idea of infallibility of their councils.
 
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Albion

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Surely you have "noticed" the Sola Scriptura thread where this Acts 17:11 detail is pointed out "repeatedly".
As I said before, Acts 17:11 isn't about Sola Scriptura. It won't be about Sola Scriptura no matter how many times you say that it is.

Cheers. :wave:
 
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throughfiierytrial

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Since there is at least some focus this month on the reformation, the protestant reformation and how wide the GAP is between protestant doctrine and Catholicism - lets work out some of the details.

While Luther may have "started" with 95 objections to selling indulgences.. that is not the sum total of the "gap" between protestantism and catholicism.

Foundational in Protestantism is this - (at the very least).

1. Sola Scriptura - Acts 17:11 (testing all doctrine and practice against the standard of the Bible instead of Bible+traditions-of-men). Col 2:22 "—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men"

2. Grace alone (mankind is saved by grace through faith - Ephesians 2) not saved by powers of sacrament or powers in a "rite" or ritual plus ...

3. Faith alone - justified by faith alone - meaning that when the lost person comes to Christ - they are saved not on the basis of good works done as a lost person - but saved by faith alone.

4. Christ alone - "there is no OTHER name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved" -- so then no earthly priest or pope stands between us and Christ who is the "one mediator between God and man" 1 Tim 2:5-6

We come boldly to the throne of grace - directly to God in prayer. No earthly mediator or Pope between.

(And of course both sides agree that all the glory goes to God alone for the plan of salvation)

===============================================

I am not sure that whatever meetings are going on this month and next .. in Germany are going to find agreement on the points listed above.

In addition there is in the "gap" between the Bible and catholicism

1. Prayers to the dead -- called "the Dead in Christ" in 1Thess 4.
2. Claims to confect the "body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ in the mass" - by contrast Christ was offered up "once for all" Hebrews 10 and no earthly priest has been given the powers to confect the "body, blood,soul and divinity of Christ in the mass"
3. The "doctrine of discovery" regarding what Catholics are allowed to do to the natives of newly discovered lands in cases where those natives refuse to convert to Catholicism
4. Infallibility of Catholic church councils and popes.
5. Authorizing violence against Christians for "thought crimes" for doctrinal differences with the Papacy.
6. Editing the Sabbath Commandment to point it to week-day-1
7. Apocryphal books injected into the Bible canon -- (books that even Jerome declared were not legitmately part of the Canon of scripture)
8. The Pope's claim to in any way be the head or leader of any denomination on earth - other than his own denomination - the Roman Catholic Church.
9. Purgatory -- does not exist according to the Bible but the RCC promotes it anyway.
10. Praying to angels
11. Bowing down before images to pray to and to promise to serve those whom they represent.
12. The idea that Catholic Church tradition holds equal weight to scripture or that an understanding of scripture that does not agree with the RCC is by definition incorrect.
13. Monastic celibate orders that appear to have promoted certain forms of sin at some level within the group.
14. "power" in the bishop or the priest to give sacraments power to mark the soul, or effect the New Birth, or forgive sins.. etc.

I am probably missing a few of the topics in "the gap" between Catholicism and Protestantism
==================================

So then what are the odds that the folks in Germany are ever going to be able to close the gap on such key doctrinal points of difference?

Key point is that the Lutheran Reformation brought about the Bible in the people's language...it brought the Bible to the people!! Just as King Josiah said, "I have found the Book!" The Bible was in effect lost to the people and Luther found it and brought it to them.
Catholics often are discouraged from reading the Bible themselves for fear of "misinterpretation"...this is changing today, but only to a small degree compared to what it should be.
 
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