How does Peter calling Rome 'Babylon' fit in with the harlot in Rev. 17 who sits on seven hills and Babylon (Rome)? The church that less than two hundred and fifty years after the writing of Rev. whored itself back to the Roman Empire to work in tandem with the world of man and become a worldly power itself having rejected the Kingdom? Was that a past or future event?
John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-
- what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
- Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
- Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
- The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
- Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
- I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.
Regardless of Babylon I think the focus was on the Harlot. There s no denying what the church did in tandem with the Empire at a later date would quality it as whoring itself to the empire and rejecting the Kingdom.Peter Doesn't all Rome Babylon.
Babylon was destroyed by the Medes in 539 BC. Just as Isaiah Prophesied it would be in Isaiah 13... one of the Myriad reasons we know Isaiah is a true prophet of God.
You have no scriptural instruction to push Isaiah 13 into our future.
This is NOT Future to us.
Fall of Babylon - Wikipedia
There is a huge serious problem with that!
John wrote the revelation in the early 90's AD!
John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-
- what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
- Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
- Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
- The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
- Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
- I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.
John indicates 4 times in Chapter 1 of Revelation that 'these things' he's discussing will start soon - and that the whole book is probably about the Roman persecution of the church.
1. "to show his servants what must soon take place"
2. " blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it" - how could the early church obey something that was addressed to Christians 2000 years later?
3. "because the time is near."
4. he SHARES in their tribulation! - John was already in jail because of Rome.
Basically, if Revelation is some sort of timetable that only the last generation will understand:-
- what good has it been for the church for the last 2000 years?
- Why can't anyone agree on this end-times timetable? ;-) Why is it so vague when Jesus and his death and resurrection and the epistles about him are mostly fairly clear?
- Compare that to Amillennials that see it as a book that neatly describes the Roman persecution of the church, Roman temptation to Christians of money wealth and empire, and Roman appeal to trusting in State security rather than God's eternal security. In this case, Revelation has been a relevant warning and encouragement to all Christians in all societies for the last 2000 years. In fact, Christians I know of who have been persecuted in Muslim countries read it this way and laugh at the idea John is talking about a future suffering. They think it silly that John would write to his suffering generation and basically say "You think you've got it bad - wait till you see what happens in 2000 years!"
- The return of Christ at the end isn't a timetable of events but gospel vision and encouragement - it's a sermon reminding us to keep going no matter what happens. It even describes the return of Jesus in judgement from 3 different points of view - repeating the same one magnificent event from 3 camera-views - none of which work in chronological order.
- Phd in Ancient History, theologian and retired Sydney Anglican Bishop Dr Paul Barnett explains further in "Apocalypse Now and Then". https://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-now-then-reading-Revelation/dp/0949108421
- I recommend learning Amil theology as it will free modern Christians from the endless fretting over which credit card or computer chip might be the 'mark of the beast' and being diverted by endless speculation over geopolitical matters and how they fit into a 'Revelation timetable'. Amil will help rather focus them on living for Christ each day and being more compassionate in their local affairs and realistic in their politics.
How does Peter calling Rome 'Babylon' fit in with the harlot in Rev. 17 who sits on seven hills and Babylon (Rome)? The church that less than two hundred and fifty years after the writing of Rev. whored itself back to the Roman Empire to work in tandem with the world of man and become a worldly power itself having rejected the Kingdom? Was that a past or future event?
The external evidence demands a 90-95 +/- AD date.The internal evidence of the book of Revelation demands the Neronic date. Robert Young was right: "The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." As also do the majority of Published Scholars affirm.
Well he obviously had people visiting to and fro, to deliver news and take his letter, or how do we have Revelation?There is a huge serious problem with that! John wrote the revelation in the early 90's AD! Also being on teh isle of Patmos He would not have had access to much information as to what was going on in the empire! Patmos was a prison and John was a prisoner of Rome in that mining prosion.
The AMIL position does that? Wow - I would have said ALL futurist positions do that - especially those that want to take 'the stars falling' as nuclear bombs or the insects coming out of the ground as soldiers with advanced mech suits or whatever other modern wonders John 'saw' but 'couldn't understand' because he was living in such primitive times. Talk about being patronising to John! If anyone rips a biblical or historical symbol out of context and applies it willy-nilly to whatever they want to, it's the futurists!Also an amill eschatology relies extra ordinarily on an allegorical hermeneutic and interpreting the symbols found in REvelation with fantastical concepts.
Because many thought Jesus, being Messiah, would have kicked out the Romans.If it is a vision to keep going- why repeat that after Jesus said so , so many times!
Also the "soon" of revelation is the greek word "en" which really doesn't mean quickly but at an or the appointed time designated.
The problem with futurists is they contradict themselves all the time. They get all excited about us reading everything literally (which is the weirdest thing because it's obviously literary - strong apocalyptic metaphor - almost poetry - known to the Jews about 200BC to 200AD) and then try to excuse why Jesus isn't literally a 7 eyed 7 horned space-lamb!The problem with AMill interpretation is that it takes the seals,trumpets and bowls and symbolizes the symbols. they just can't believe that all that mess will actually literally take place!
The warning to us now, yes.Money and Empire???
The specific example back then, yes.No it was to recant Jesus and accept Cesar to live!
If we get to those chapters, I'll unpack it.NOt to gain fame, fortune or noteriety!
Like 'soon' and John sharing their tribulation and the time being near and that generation hearing and obeying his message?In order for ths REvelation to "fit nicely" with roman persecution one has to play twister with Scripture and gerrymander words until they no longer meran what is written.
Nice - what if I turned it around and said people who are futurists don't care about the gospel and evangelism any more, they just want to put up their crazy-walls and somehow force Revelation to be talking about today.It seems that people who like to believe the prophesies are all over, maybe Jesus will Return, maybe He won't bother; they are not interested in being around for what must happen. They don't want what the Lord has Promised to His people, to those Christian people alive, who will have the great opportunity to prove their faith thru it all.
The reality is, EN; that the world is now at a critical level of just about everything. Population, resources. supply chains, etc, but the greatest threat is the ongoing confrontation of the Jews and the Islamic peoples in the Middle East region.Nice - what if I turned it around and said people who are futurists don't care about the gospel and evangelism any more, they just want to put up their crazy-walls and somehow force Revelation to be talking about today.
why not try to comprehend what we are told in our Bibles about God's Plans for our future?
In a way - as long as we don't see any of it as specific prophecy, but as general gospel hope."the mirror shows many things, things that are, things that were, and some things, that have not yet come to pass" I think, etc...
Exactly! There are 3 parts - the first vision (letter to the churches), the next vision that describes the general flavour of these Last Days (2000 years and counting), and then the 3 different camera angles on Judgement Day.Point being in general about many things, or history, in some cases, etc, that just keep on happening, and/or repeating themselves over and over again,
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