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Sparring is good, let's all remember we are partners in it; iron sharpens iron.
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3rd Temple coming soon..
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I've been contending against the 3rd Temple illusion in such passages as Jer.31:31-34; Ezek.36:26, 27; Dan.9:27; IIThess.2:4, and the animal sacrifices in need of repeating, Heb.10:1-5; Ps.40:6-8 for almost three decades for the sole purpose of allowing younger Christians realize there is another truthful interpretation of exponential import regarding IIThess.2:4 and Rev.11:1. And the only chance one has at receiving this one true interpretation is render naos, "Sanctuary" in both of the former resulting in a contextual interpretation of a credible Text.
My point during any time in history, beginning from 70 A.D., where one is born into a full blown apostasy, understanding the former two passages will allow one to 'remain in' during these horrific times where most think they will awake in heaven only to be forever disappointed awaking in the wrong place. :o
Long ago Christians cared during the week striking up a conversations about Jesus, today I'm an old man and am careful when and where I try to initiate a conversation what Jesus did at the Cross, ie, simple threats to threatening aggressivness.
You folks care where most Christians could care less during the week beyond the 1.5 hours on Sunday in Church, and this speaks loudly to me, ie, thank you!
Agreeing to disagree, Old Jack
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iamlamad
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I've been contending against the 3rd Temple illusion in such passages as Jer.31:31-34; Ezek.36:26, 27; Dan.9:27; IIThess.2:4, and the animal sacrifices in need of repeating, Heb.10:1-5; Ps.40:6-8 for almost three decades for the sole purpose of allowing younger Christians realize there is another truthful interpretation of exponential import regarding IIThess.2:4 and Rev.11:1. And the only chance one has at receiving this one true interpretation is render naos, "Sanctuary" in both of the former resulting in a contextual interpretation of a credible Text.
My point during any time in history, beginning from 70 A.D., where one is born into a full blown apostasy, understanding the former two passages will allow one to 'remain in' during these horrific times where most think they will awake in heaven only to be forever disappointed awaking in the wrong place. :o
Long ago Christians cared during the week striking up a conversations about Jesus, today I'm an old man and am careful when and where I try to initiate a conversation what Jesus did at the Cross, ie, simple threats to threatening aggressivness.
You folks care where most Christians could care less during the week beyond the 1.5 hours on Sunday in Church, and this speaks loudly to me, ie, thank you!
Agreeing to disagree, Old Jack
Jack, WHERE do you stand - WHAT is your belief? Do you believe that much of Revelation is history?
Do you believe in the rapture AT ALL - at any time?
Do you believe in a future 70th week? If not, WHERE did that 70th week go?
Are you willfully ignorant of the fact that Israel will build a new temple - perhaps already has all the carved blocks READY at any moment to begin? Surely you have not been ignorant of their search for a red heifer without spot or blemish. Surely you have heard of their search for the blue dye necessary for the priest's robe. Surely you are not ignorant of their search for sons of Levi. Surely you know they have spent YEARS determining the exact location of the old temple. The last I knew, they believe the Muslim temple is NOT over that spot, but they can build their temple beside the Muslim Dome of the Rock. Or have all these things just gone blissfully over your head? BELIEVE! There will be a new temple built!
Since there WILL BE a new temple, and since we are close to the end of 6000 years since Adam sinned - is it difficult to believe that very soon Jesus will return? Or do you not believe in that either?
Since you have already admitted that brick and mortar temple DO INCLUDE "NAOS" why then do you struggle so with the idea that this is what John and Paul was talking about?
Did it just go over your head that the Beast will reside in Jerusalem and deceive the entire world from THERE - that "great city?" Did you not understand the great harlot of Revelation is "that great city" Jerusalem? WHAT would be in Jerusalem that the Beast would live there for 3 1/2 years? WHY, when Jerusalem is such a NOTHING city compared to all the cities of the world? The answer is, BECAUSE THAT IS WHERE THE NEW TEMPLE FOR THE JEWS WILL BE. Did you not read that God will make the city of Jerusalem a stumbling block for the ENTIRE WORLD? WHY Jerusalem? Because that is where the last several temples were, and where the new temple will be. It is also where Ezekiel's temple will be.
Now, when you read of a temple that can be MEASURED with a tape measure or a reed; a temple that has an altar INSIDE, with worshipers INSIDE, and an outer court OUTSIDE - a temple that the man of sin - a REAL flesh and blood man can walk into and set down - how can you continue with such foolishness? A 5th grader would read this and KNOW God was talking about a real temple. Yet you will all your learning insist God was trying to make this difficult so that only the very learned would get it.
I suspect with all your talk of "old" that you may not live to see the new temple - but I hope you do, so you will know you were WRONG.
What do you mean by this? "where one is born into a full blown apostasy"
WHAT will one 'remain in' ?
There are two words or phrases that are different the Greek texts:
Stephens 1550 Textus Receptus: epi panta & qeou ws qeon
Scrivener 1894 Textus Receptus epi pan to & qeou ws qeon
Byzantine Majority epi panta & qeou ws qeon
Alexandrian epi panta & qeou kaqisai
Sorry for size, cannot make them smaller.
Different translations using these Greek texts:
KJV "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
American Standard: "so that he sitteth in the temple of God, setting himself forth as God."
Bible in Basic English "so that he takes his seat in the Temple of God, putting himself forward as God."
Darby's English Translation "so that he himself sits down in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Douay Rheims "so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God."
Noah Webster Bible "so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."
Weymouth New Testament "and goes the length of taking his seat in the very temple of God, giving it out that he himself is God."
World English Bible "so that he sits as God in the temple of God, setting himself up as God."
Young's Literal Translation "so that he in the sanctuary of God as God hath sat down, shewing himself off that he is God"
From Hurt's parallel Greek New Testament
Mace " that is seated in the temple of God, pretending to be it self divine."
Wycliffe "so that he sitte in the temple of God, and schewe hym silf as if he were God."
Tyndale "so that he shall sitt as God in temple of god and shew him silfe as god."
Coverdale "so that he sytteth as God in the temple of God, and boasteth himselfe to be God."
Bishop's "so that he as God, sitteth in the temple of God, shewing hym selfe that he is God."
Geneva "so that he doeth sit as God in the Temple of God, shewing him selfe that he is God."
Emphasized bible "so that he, within the sanctuary of God, shall take his seat, showeth himself forth, that he is, God: -"
Green's literal "so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. "
Amplified " [even to his actually] taking his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming that he himself is God."
Jack, does it bother you at all that in all these experts at Greek translation, there is NOT ONE HINT of what you suggest.
On your side: Matthew Henry
"As God was in the temple of old, and worshipped there, and is in and with his church now; so the antichrist here mentioned, is a usurper of God's authority in the Christian church, who claims Divine honours."
Pulpit commentary
"Sitteth in the temple of God. According to some, the temple of Jerusalem (De Wette, Lunemann, Eadie), either as it then existed or as restored according to the prophecy of Ezekiel But it appears more correct to refer the expression metaphorically to the Christian Church. It is a favourite metaphor of Paul to compare believers in particular, or the Church in general, to the temple of God "
Gill
"so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God; not in the temple of Jerusalem, which was to be destroyed and never to be rebuilt more, and was destroyed before this man of sin was revealed; but in the church of God, so called, 1 Corinthians 3:16 the Ethiopic version renders it, "in the house of God"..."
MY SIDE!
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown
"in the temple of God that he is God"He will reign a time, times, and half a time" (Da 7:25), that is, three and a half years, and will sit in the temple at Jerusalem: then the Lord shall come from heaven and cast him into the take of fire and shall bring to the saints the times of their reigning, the seventh day of hallowed rest, and give to Abraham the promised inheritance" [Irenæus, Against Heresies, 30.4]."
LAMAD
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Interplanner
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Lamad,
do you think this 3rd temple will have to be replaced by a 4th because the 3rd is to be used to decieve? At least, that is why I think 4-temple people think that. I appreciate the reason, but if they think that is what Rev 21 is about, they are mistaken all over again. Because the temple of Rev 21 is God and the Lamb. You could say that is already true.
It is too much of a coincidence that the 'rebellion that desolates' (Dan 8) basically runs Jerusalem for 3.5 years in 66, and that more than one of them claimed to be Messiah, which was a claim to be God. I'm sure Irenaeus was sincerely trying to work things out now that those events moved to the past, but he's just a patristic father.
do you think this 3rd temple will have to be replaced by a 4th because the 3rd is to be used to decieve? At least, that is why I think 4-temple people think that. I appreciate the reason, but if they think that is what Rev 21 is about, they are mistaken all over again. Because the temple of Rev 21 is God and the Lamb. You could say that is already true.
It is too much of a coincidence that the 'rebellion that desolates' (Dan 8) basically runs Jerusalem for 3.5 years in 66, and that more than one of them claimed to be Messiah, which was a claim to be God. I'm sure Irenaeus was sincerely trying to work things out now that those events moved to the past, but he's just a patristic father.
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I'm a pre-1930 Ohio ELCA very conservative confessional Lutheran, and would encourage you to hit the Library scrutinizing Mathias Loy's Commentary regarding Matt.23:16 & 27:51, ie, only for starters as no url that I know of is available. Renders "sanctuary" where most translations wrongfully render "temple." German works I access most render "sanctuary," ie, some in High-German, difficult for me.
Old Jack
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Regarding "Israel will build a new temple", it probably won't be Israel but only the ultra-Orthodox Jews within Israel. For one reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.
Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they are allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (or simply clear way their rubble, if they have already been destroyed by great earthquakes by that time).
Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent would be the rising up of a miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:
"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"
Something else that could help tip the scales toward the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.
Regarding "there WILL BE a new temple", that's right. For Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 require that there will be a 3rd Jewish temple in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build the temple, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).
Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.
But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).
At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).
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iamlamad
Lamad
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Sorry, I don't understand "basically runs Jerusalem for 3.5 years in 66". If you are thinking 66 AD, and some 3 1/2 years back then, you are mistaken. Revelation is too clear on what must happen leading up to the 3 1/2 years - things that simply have not happened.
I don't know if the Jews will use the "blueprint" of Ezekiel's temple to build or not. If they do, I don't know if the temple will be destroyed during the 70th week. My guess is Ezekiel's temple will be built early in the Millennial reign of Christ.
IF they build Ezekiel's temple and it is not destroyed, all that would be needed is a red heifer without spot or blemish to cleanse the temple.
Do you think Ezekiel's temple was just his dream or something? You don't see it being built? I see it as the Millennial temple.
LAMAD
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iamlamad
Lamad
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Even if it did say "sanctuary" in every translation, but said Altar, worshipers, and an outer court, I would still say Paul and John were writing of a real temple. We both know that their temple had an inner sanctuary, called the Holy of Holies where ONLY the High Priest would go, and only once a year. The Holy Spirit was NOT TRYING to make it difficult!
There is going to be another temple, unless Israel disappears suddenly - which she won't. There is going to be a "man of sin" that will come "in the place of" (anti) Christ. Logic would dictate that he MUST to to the new temple. It must makes good sense. It will be the very reason that God will call Jerusalem the "Great Wh**e Babylon."
LAMAD
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This is the closest contextually where we agreed to agree.
Rev.11:1, all we have to do is understand that the Church is the supreme concern or our Lord, and needs measuring, ie, the reed is "like a rod." "reed" = symolizes the "Word" or the "Gospel" 
Who is in and who is out :oMy point: Here the measuring fixes the boundry, the line of demarkation between what is inside of and belongs to the Sanctuary of God, and what is outside of it and is profane. the symbolism is restricted to the hour when the incense was offered on the golden alter in the Holy place while all the worshippers bowed in prayer in the courts of the courts of the priests, the men, and the women. It is a repetition of the scene described in Lk.1:8-10 and 21, 22. The altar referred to is the golden altar (Rev.8:3, 4), and thus the worshippers are mentioned in connection with it.
Thus a line of separation is drawn between the Una Sancta and the world. John is to measure for all time "the Sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in connection with it." Let us conclude that the three terms are to be viewed as a unit and denote the Church, the Una Sancta, as being holy unto God, separate from "the court, the one outside," which is not to be measured as though it or any part of it is to be bounded and marked off as being holy to God.
Old Jack
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iamlamad
Lamad
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This is the closest contextually where we agreed to agree.
My point: Here the measuring fixes the boundry, the line of demarkation between what is inside of and belongs to the Sanctuary of God, and what is outside of it and is profane. the symbolism is restricted to the hour when the incense was offered on the golden alter in the Holy place while all the worshippers bowed in prayer in the courts of the courts of the priests, the men, and the women. It is a repetition of the scene described in Lk.1:8-10 and 21, 22. The altar referred to is the golden altar (Rev.8:3, 4), and thus the worshippers are mentioned in connection with it.
Thus a line of separation is drawn between the Una Sancta and the world. John is to measure for all time "the Sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in connection with it." Let us conclude that the three terms are to be viewed as a unit and denote the Church, the Una Sancta, as being holy unto God, separate from "the court, the one outside," which is not to be measured as though it or any part of it is to be bounded and marked off as being holy to God.
Old Jack
Ha ha ha! Here your doctrine - far removed from the intent of the Author - catches up with you!
"the Church is the supreme concern or our Lord, and needs measuring"
At this time, the Bride of Christ will be in heaven, and so NO CONCERN of God at all! The rest of the church was LEFT BEHIND so not much concern to God. This will be the 70th week of DANIEL, a Jew, and the week is for the JEWS. It is not called the 70th week of Paul. So it is NOT PEOPLE that need measuring, it is the new temple built in Jerusalem. And if you understand the first and second verse, the man of sin (from Paul) enters Jerusalem at the first verse, probably 3 1/2 days before the midpoint of the week. He will enter the temple at the exact midpoint and declare that He is God.
The moment he arrives, the two witnesses show up, BECAUSE he has arrived. They too arrive 3 1/2 days before the midpoint.
So you are trying to make something very literal into nonsense and say it is symbolize.
Sorry, you are just wrong, and before long you will find out when you see it take place.
LAMAD
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I agape you as a brother my true Christian friend, however you must at some point leave "Left Behind" behind. You and I played hopscotch during school recess, but not now with the precious Scriptures. There comes a point in one's life where they just have to let go.
Old Jack praying tht you can finally let go of this illusion.
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But Lamad, you just made literalism out to be nonsense because you inserted X000 years between 69 and 70 without paying attention to the normal meaning.
btw, there is not an emphasis on exactly 3.5 years. "in the midst" is not that exact. If you had a circle, the Hebrew "in the midst" would mean anything inside the circle but definitely nothing outside of it.
btw, there is not an emphasis on exactly 3.5 years. "in the midst" is not that exact. If you had a circle, the Hebrew "in the midst" would mean anything inside the circle but definitely nothing outside of it.
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iamlamad
Lamad
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Jack, what are you going to do when this "illusion" turns into reality? You have been living in a dream world that is about to shatter. Revelation is history written in advance. We are right now between the 5th and 6th seals. You should meditate on the 5th seal and pray in the Spirit. You will find they are CHURCH AGE martyrs. Stephen was one of the first, but Paul killed others we don't know about. They were told they must wait for the final martyr to be killed as they were. But WAIT! They were put to death in different manners. Peter was crucified upside down. All of the 11 - all except John were martyred. They had NO IDEA how long this "church age" would last, so they were asking how long it would be before God would avenge them. Some were sawn asunder. some were fed to lions. Many were crucified, some were stoned. You see, the manner of death was DIFFERENT, so that is not what John was talking about. He was talking about the final martyr to be killed as they were, as CHURCH AGE martyrs. (I hope you believe in the dispensation of the church, the body of Christ on earth!)
What will make the last martyr of the church age? Of course the END Of the church age. What is the dividing line that ends the church age and ushers in the 70th week - or FINAL week for the law? Of course the pretrib rapture of the church - that very rapture you refuse to believe in. Why don't you study 1 Thes. 4 & 5 until you get it? Paul is clear!
There will come a SUDDENLY - at a time like today, when people are saying "peace and safety." Israel is not at war. For the most part, they feel at peace and life goes on...marrying and giving in marriage......you get the picture....just like with Noah and Lot. But WHAT is this "suddenly?"
The suddenly is the rapture of the bride of Christ! As Paul wrote, we get "salvation" and get to "live together with Him," while the lost get "sudden destruction." What is that sudden destruction that comes the very instant the rapture comes? It is a world wide earthquake caused by the dead in Christ rising. (See Matthew 27 about an earthquake).
WHERE is this earthquake in Revelation? It is the VERY NEXT EVENT AFTER THE 5th SEAL! It is the 6th seal. So they under the altar had to wait for the 6th seal.....which begins with the rapture, and ends with "The day of His wrath has come."
From here John goes to the 7th seal....but he must rearrange the set first. The 144,000 MUST BE SEALED before the Day of the Lord can begin. And the Bride of Christ must be seen in heaven. THEN the Day of the Lord can begin. The 70th week will begin at the same time.
Then John walks us through the first half of the week, the trumpet judgments. They are the beginning of God's wrath poured out on earth. The 7th trumpet is sounded in heaven at the same time the man of sin says "I am God - worship me!" This marks the exact midpoint of the week. From this point, there are six parallel lines of time:
The 42 months of trampling
The 1260 days of testifying
The 1260 days of fleeing
The time, times and half of time for protection and feeding
The 42 months of authority for the Beast.
Then there is the general time of John's narrative. Chapter 12 where Michael goes after Satan. Satan goes after those fleeing. Then, possesses the man of sin, who becomes the BEAST of chapter 13 - which chapter describes in detail what the Beast will do.
Then chapter 14 and the three angels that speak to each ethnic group in their own language, warning men to WORSHIP GOD, refuse the mark, and prepare for the fall of Babylon.
Finally John gets to chapter 15, the preparation for the vials. By this time, John is far into the last half of the week. We don't know just how far, for God has not said. But at some time, God will pour out the vials of His wrath, SHORTENING the days of great tribulation.
Finally John ENDS the 70th week with the 7th vial. But the DAy of the Lord continues. Chapters 17 and 18 cover the time on earth AFTER the 70th week has finished but BEFORE Jesus returns on the white horse. Ten Kings will throw in with the Beast, with plans to utterly destroy Israel - wipe her off the map. (Ezekiel 38 & 39?) The combined armies of TEN nations attack, surround Jerusalem and burn her to the ground...probably including the new temple. Millions will be killed, woman and children will be captured as slaves. (That is the Muslim way.) Shortly after this, SUDDENLY JESUS comes. These combined armies are in Israel - and become dinner for the beasts and birds.
Meanwhile, in heaven, Just before Jesus returns, the marriage and supper will take place.
So John walks us through the entire 70th week, IN THE ORDER IT WILL HAPPEN.
Since you cannot see it now, in the words John has written, you WILL SEE IT IN PERSON, if you survive the sudden destruction: the worldwide earthquake.
Good luck with that and with the Beast of Rev. 13. Have you decided if you will starve or take the mark?
LAMAD
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Revelation 11:2
But the court which is without [outside] the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Revelation 11:2 refers to a literal outer court of a Jewish temple building which will be built on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as Matthew 24:15 and Daniel 11:31 refer to that temple's holy place (inner sanctum), and just as 2 Thessalonians 2:4 and Daniel 11:36 refer to the Antichrist eventually sitting in that temple (at least one time) and proclaiming himself God.
While the church as a whole is a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it isn't the only temple of God. For it coexists with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).
For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That is why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).
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Well said.
Regarding the idea of some people in the church being "left behind", is it usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should note that those passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).
Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).
Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).
So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).
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B2 wrote:
the literal temple building in heaven
You've missed the whole point. Actually, to think we can describe heaven in "literal" earth terms misses the whole point. God and the Lamb are the temple of heaven.
the literal temple building in heaven
You've missed the whole point. Actually, to think we can describe heaven in "literal" earth terms misses the whole point. God and the Lamb are the temple of heaven.
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B2,
you're not getting what he means about left behind, so I don't know why you said 'well said'!
The original situation all this applied to was the 1st century Judean landscape. The ones taken are ruined, like those taken in the flood, and the war of the 1st century was described like a flood (Dan 9). The ones left are left alone, which is a good thing.
The takers are the messianic revolutionaries.
This is why all this is said to have happened "before (the disciples) taste death, etc." It is not "rapture language." By forcing Mt 24:36+ to be "rapture language," people have switched the meaning of taken and left! I'm not suprised. They are bound to get most of it wrong by jumping to the future at v4!
The coming of the Son of Man was indeed expected right after the cataclysm of 66+ and two things seem to have happened to the expression: 1, it meant it was an act of conclusive judgement on the nation and 2, it's universally-redemptive features were delayed, while the Father allowed more time for more people from more of the nations to believe the Gospel.
you're not getting what he means about left behind, so I don't know why you said 'well said'!
The original situation all this applied to was the 1st century Judean landscape. The ones taken are ruined, like those taken in the flood, and the war of the 1st century was described like a flood (Dan 9). The ones left are left alone, which is a good thing.
The takers are the messianic revolutionaries.
This is why all this is said to have happened "before (the disciples) taste death, etc." It is not "rapture language." By forcing Mt 24:36+ to be "rapture language," people have switched the meaning of taken and left! I'm not suprised. They are bound to get most of it wrong by jumping to the future at v4!
The coming of the Son of Man was indeed expected right after the cataclysm of 66+ and two things seem to have happened to the expression: 1, it meant it was an act of conclusive judgement on the nation and 2, it's universally-redemptive features were delayed, while the Father allowed more time for more people from more of the nations to believe the Gospel.
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iamlamad
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There are other scriptures that give us the idea of being "left behind." 1 Thes. 4 and 5 give us the same idea: some will be taken or snatched by the Holy Spirit, and literally caught up into the air to be with Him. But others will face "sudden destruction." These others could be people that call themselves "Christian;" people that BELIEVE that JEsus came to die for them, and people that CONFESS Jesus as Lord. There are millions that believe and confess, but are LUKEWARM, and will be left behind.
There are other verses that give us a strong hint that if people are not watching for His coming, because they imagine it will be years ahead, or because their doctrine tells them they will see the Beast first.....they too will be left behind.
Being "left behind" is SERIOUS BUSINESS! Many will give in to the terrors of the day, and receive the mark. Hunger and thirst are a GREAT motivator. It is going to be very hard times to live through. The ONLY way to heaven if one is left behind, will be to refuse the mark and lose your head. HOW MUCH BETTER to be ready for Paul's rapture and escape what is coming!
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But the original meaning is about revolutionary 1st century Judea. To be taken was bad; to be left was to be left alone. he was urging them to get out of the country. He was saying it is a 50-50 chance you will be impounded by these revolutionaries to fight for Israel's freedom. And then guess what they did? They killed hundreds of thousands of those taken deemed unworthy to fight for Israel, even before Rome arrived. And they starved many others of those taken to death. Madness.
Total madness compared to being a blessing in the mission of the Gospel to the nations.
Total madness compared to being a blessing in the mission of the Gospel to the nations.
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iamlamad
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In Matthew, the meaning was and is clear: those that see the abomination must FLEE.....and it references the 70th week still ahead of us. However, Luke wrote something different. Was it two separate discourses? I doubt it. Luke wrote that when the see the armies surrounding Jerusalem, they were to FLEE. I am convinced this was written BEFORE 70 AD and as a warning for Christians to flee the city. It is interesting to note, Titus surrounded the city, then backed off for a time, which allowed the Christians to escape.
HOWEVER, that being said, I am also convinced Luke has a second meaning. That once again Jerusalem will be surrounded and there will be a chance for some to flee. Luke talks about PRAYING to be found worthy to escape what is coming. Why would someone need to pray when Jesus told them to flee when they see the city surrounded or see the abomination? No, this time there will be ANOTHER escape! Jesus will come and catch His bride up, and take her to heaven. THAT is the Escape Luke is talking about.
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Originally Posted by shturt678s
I agape you as a brother my true Christian friend, however you must at some point leave "Left Behind" behind. You and I played hopscotch during school recess, but not now with the precious Scriptures. There comes a point in one's life where they just have to let go.
Old Jack praying tht you can finally let go of this illusion.
Surely thou dost jest!
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