3rd Temple coming soon..

[iamlamad]

Lamad wrote:
What difference does any of this mean to a JEW that does not believe his or her Messiah has come yet?

You may have answered your own question there. You might ask Paul, then, what he meant by Messiah, because your question implies he is mistaken.

all that you just said in the most recent post is dependent on the futurist and literalist presupposition. There doesn't have to be any of that, especially given the confusion you've admitted is in it. It will be regrettable if it does happen because it just extends the disbelief and denial about what already came about in the Gospel (the new temple, the new Lamb of God, the new "living sacrifices"--Rom 12).

You can live in the dream world of history if you wish. It is your choice. God has always been a God who tells the end from the beginning. To imagine He has lost that ability or perhaps desire is silly in my mind. Surely you have read how incredibly accurate His past prophecies were. Daniel was so accurate that the "experts" were sure it was written after the fact. The prophecies of the coming Messiah, written hundreds of years before the fact, were and still are incredible. No one reading the prophecy and then reading the fulfillment would have any doubt.

Yet you read the trumpet judgments, and the vial judgments and somehow think God has lost His ability to be accurate! You imagine these were fulfilled in the past, yet you cannot point to a time each trumpet and vial happened. It is making nonsense out of prophecy. If you study 2 Thes 2, you see that people were doing that way back then, saying the Day of the Lord had already come.

As I said, you are living in a dream world. Most of Revelation is FUTURE and will soon come to pass. It will overtake you. The rapture is coming whether or not you believe it. If you don't believe it at the time it happens, you will be left behind. The big questions is, HOW can you get from where you are now, believing myths, to the truth?

The Jews MISSED their Messiah. They are still waiting for His first coming. They are determined to build a new temple. And God has told it it will happen. How many previous temples have they built? Why is it so difficult for you to believe they will build another? Have you not kept up with their search for "a red heifer without spot or blemish?" Have you not read of their search for the blue dye for the blue thread in their robes? Have you not seen the new Arc of the Covenant? Have you not read of their search for Levites? They are READY or almost ready, to perform sacrifices once again. And again God has told us they WILL.

Did you read in Ezekiel where God LEFT their temple? Did He ever return? I don't think so. IN the days of Jesus, was God's presence still in the Holy of Holies? I don't think so. Neither do I think He will come to their new temple. It will be a FORM of worship. But they will be the walking dead trying to worship a LIVING God. WE can worship in Spirit and truth, because we have a recreated Spirit with HIM IN IT.

So what is God to do with them? HOW can He get them from their place of UNBELIEF to where they will accept and receive their own Messiah? The answer is the 70th week of Daniel or the time of Jacob's trouble. He is going to remove all chance of survival for them. As Daniel put it, "utterly shattered." They will come to the place of absolutely NO HOPE unless God moves for them, and for sure they will be crying out for Him...and then He will come. But Jerusalem will be surrounded (again) and burned. Many will led away captive, as slaves. (Thankfully they won't get far) Of course many will be killed. But God has promised them a remnant will live through this time.

This time of the 70th week is FOR THEM, not for the church. Those that believe will be GONE, raptured, caught up and taken to heaven. This is TRUTH. It does not matter (except to you) if you don't believe. It is going to take place anyway.

LAMAD

 

[shturt678s]

ICor.6:19, "Temple" meaning the our body is composed of four courtyards, gates, altar, stairway, gates, and etc. including the Sanctuary in the center.

If naos = Sanctuary

If ieron = Temple

Then I Cor.6:19, Jn.2:19, and IIThess.2:4 = naos = Sanctuary

Matt.4:5, "Temple" = ieron

3rd so called "Temple," ie, "Sanctuary" is being built right now within one's body, ie, more narrowly in one's Sanctuary.

Old Jack

 

[Interplanner]

If the DofJ in the 60s wasnt' enough to cause an outbreak of widespread BELIEF among them, then no chastisement will. You have the notion that God will go back to slamming people into belief. REally? Where in theology do you get that idea?

As for missing Scripture, why is always just the temple prophecies I seem to have missed? For clearly, I haven't missed Acts 13's sermon or 2 Cor 3-5 or the letter to Hebrews which conflict with what you are saying. Why do OT prophecies about another temple trump the NT? In fact, they even seem to trump Nehemiah's temple and the events of the DofJ, too. There is no clear indication of a third. There was a belief that Herod's renovations really resulted in a 3rd (an edition distinct from Nehemiah's) but of course what happened to it?

And the inconsistency of this disaster has still not been addressed. If it does happen it is deceit. Just what we need. You are very passionate about this, but no passion about the historic Gospel of grace for all sinners. Why is that?

 

[shturt678s]

If the DofJ in the 60s wasnt' enough to cause an outbreak of widespread BELIEF among them, then no chastisement will. You have the notion that God will go back to slamming people into belief. REally? Where in theology do you get that idea?

As for missing Scripture, why is always just the temple prophecies I seem to have missed? For clearly, I haven't missed Acts 13's sermon or 2 Cor 3-5 or the letter to Hebrews which conflict with what you are saying. Why do OT prophecies about another temple trump the NT? In fact, they even seem to trump Nehemiah's temple and the events of the DofJ, too.

There is no clear indication of a third.

There was a belief that Herod's renovations really resulted in a 3rd (an edition distinct from Nehemiah's) but of course what happened to it?

And the inconsistency of this disaster has still not been addressed. If it does happen it is deceit. Just what we need. You are very passionate about this, but no passion about the historic Gospel of grace for all sinners. Why is that?

Old Jack

 

[iamlamad]

ICor.6:19, "Temple" meaning the our body is composed of four courtyards, gates, altar, stairway, gates, and etc. including the Sanctuary in the center.

If naos = Sanctuary

If ieron = Temple

Then I Cor.6:19, Jn.2:19, and IIThess.2:4 = naos = Sanctuary

Matt.4:5, "Temple" = ieron

3rd so called "Temple," ie, "Sanctuary" is being built right now within one's body, ie, more narrowly in one's Sanctuary.

Old Jack

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Our SPIRIT is in our body and the Holy Spirit dwells in our human spirit.

Sorry, no "gates," no "altars," no "stairway," NOTHING but the human spirit.

Jack, why do you insist in living in dreamland?


4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rev 11
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Jack, can you honestly tell me you cannot read a real "brick and mortar" temple here, with an altar inside, worshipers worshiping, with an outer court given to Gentiles?


Before He left, Our Great Jehovah God, YHWH, dwelled in the Temples of Israel (or at least had a presense there). WHERE in the temple? In the holy of holies, either in or on the Arc of the Covenant. In Ezekiel we read of Him leaving the Holy of Holies, then the temple, then the city, then the earth.


My point is, the God of Israel dwelled in the most holy place in the temple. If the devil wanted to be God and was kicked down from the heavenlies, made to dwell ONLY on the earth, WHERE ELSE would he go to impersonate YHWH? He would go where YHWH used to dwell; in the holy of holies in the Jewish temple. Jack, this makes perfect sense as a 5th grader would read it - as a REAL temple.


Why then do you struggle so with this concept of a real temple? Do these verses make good sense in their literal sense as a real temple?


LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

Lamad, a lot of Rev doesn't make the best of sense. Let's take 20:11. There is the judgement day, but then the earth and sky fled away. Yet the sea still gives up its dead. But are there no corpses on earth? Why just the sea? But then then sea is classed with death and Hades. So now the "sea" he is talking about is like the end-phase of life and like a 'place' in the otherworld: Hades.

Sorry but I'm not going to build good theology there, even if it is rich in meaning in another way. This kind if literature was the 'cartoons' of the 1st century. The graffitti, the punchy advertising.

 

[southcountry]

Lamad, a lot of Rev doesn't make the best of sense. Let's take 20:11. There is the judgement day, but then the earth and sky fled away. Yet the sea still gives up its dead. But are there no corpses on earth? Why just the sea? But then then sea is classed with death and Hades. So now the "sea" he is talking about is like the end-phase of life and like a 'place' in the otherworld: Hades.

Sorry but I'm not going to build good theology there, even if it is rich in meaning in another way. This kind if literature was the 'cartoons' of the 1st century. The graffitti, the punchy advertising.

The "sea" is the sea of glass spread before the throne which the four beasts are holding apart. It is all of creation, this is why it was no more, because heavens and earth pass away, all elements melted, it rolled together as a scroll. When John stood upon the sands of the sea, it means he stood beside it and watched what was happening throughout its timeline.

This also explains this verse"

Isaiah 27:1 In that day the Lord with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.


We are presently part of the sea, as is all the heavenly bodies. This is explained in Genesis when two firmaments are formed.......its talking about the building blocks of matter being formed.

 

[shturt678s]

19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Our SPIRIT is in our body and the Holy Spirit dwells in our human spirit.

Our humble, earthly body is nothing less than "a sanctuary of the Spirit," and Paul writes "Holy Spirit," for because of its very name "a sanctuary" (naos) is holy. He uses naos, the inner sanctuary itself not ieron, which may mean only the outer Temple courts.

The Holy Spirit dwells within our body (Sanctuary) making our spirit one with the Lord, ie, not that the Spirit dwells within our spirit?

Sorry, no "gates," no "altars," no "stairway," NOTHING but the human spirit.

Jack, why do you insist in living in dreamland?


4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Rev 11
11 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.


Jack, can you honestly tell me you cannot read a real "brick and mortar" temple here, with an altar inside, worshipers worshiping, with an outer court given to Gentiles?


Before He left, Our Great Jehovah God, YHWH, dwelled in the Temples of Israel (or at least had a presense there). WHERE in the temple? In the holy of holies, either in or on the Arc of the Covenant. In Ezekiel we read of Him leaving the Holy of Holies, then the temple, then the city, then the earth.


My point is, the God of Israel dwelled in the most holy place in the temple. If the devil wanted to be God and was kicked down from the heavenlies, made to dwell ONLY on the earth, WHERE ELSE would he go to impersonate YHWH? He would go where YHWH used to dwell; in the holy of holies in the Jewish temple. Jack, this makes perfect sense as a 5th grader would read it - as a REAL temple.


Why then do you struggle so with this concept of a real temple? Do these verses make good sense in their literal sense as a real temple?


LAMAD

Old Jack

 

[random person]

What difference does any of this mean to a JEW that does not believe his or her Messiah has come yet?

My only point was there WILL BE a Jewish temple built soon. The reason WHY will be left to the Jews that build it. God said it will be, so I believe it will be. Will God's presence come to this temple as He did so long ago? I doubt it seriously, but that will be up to HIM.

There WILL BE a new temple in the millennial kingdom of Christ. It is Ezekiel's temple. And they WILL HAVE animal sacrifices, this time pointing BACK to the Savior who died for us. And it will be GOD's TEMPLE.

LAMAD

Do you understand the common theme on grace in these two passages?

How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who aree seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Or these two passages on the nature of animal sacrifices and the sacrifice of Christ?

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

What defines an Antichrist in these verses?

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also."

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

In all essence the Temple restoration movement is an Antichrist because it denies Jesus Christ.

 

[iamlamad]

Lamad, a lot of Rev doesn't make the best of sense. Let's take 20:11. There is the judgement day, but then the earth and sky fled away. Yet the sea still gives up its dead. But are there no corpses on earth? Why just the sea? But then then sea is classed with death and Hades. So now the "sea" he is talking about is like the end-phase of life and like a 'place' in the otherworld: Hades.

Sorry but I'm not going to build good theology there, even if it is rich in meaning in another way. This kind if literature was the 'cartoons' of the 1st century. The graffitti, the punchy advertising.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Some people die and are buried. Others die at sea and are buried there. There will be a resurrection of the sinner, just as with the saint: their bodies will come up from the ground, or from the sea, while their spirit comes up from hell. Of course this takes place BEFORE the earth and heaven have fled away or disappeared. He could have mentioned those coming from the earth; as in buried, but he did not. Come to think of it, neither did Paul say specifically. AT the rapture those that were buried at sea will CERTAINLY rise with the rest. However, WHERE the bodies come from is not the focal point of this passage: it is what happens to them later.

Is this passage written with symbols that must be translated into words? No, it is to be read and understood just as it is written.

ALL scripture is good for doctrine.

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Our humble, earthly body is nothing less than "a sanctuary of the Spirit," and Paul writes "Holy Spirit," for because of its very name "a sanctuary" (naos) is holy. He uses naos, the inner sanctuary itself not ieron, which may mean only the outer Temple courts.

The Holy Spirit dwells within our body (Sanctuary) making our spirit one with the Lord, ie, not that the Spirit dwells within our spirit?



Old Jack

Old Jack, EVERY Jewish temple had the inner sanctuary! But the inner sanctuary of a real brick and mortar temple is a place someone can enter and sit, acting like God. And it also will have an outer court where Gentiles could be allowed. It could also be measured with a reed.

Paul does say that the two become one. I have NEVER heard a sermon on that: does the Holy Spirit merge with our spirit and the two become one? Are we "one" with God? Or does the Holy Spirit just abide there?

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Do you understand the common theme on grace in these two passages?

How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?

And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who aree seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Or these two passages on the nature of animal sacrifices and the sacrifice of Christ?

By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

For the Law, since it has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the very form of things, can never, by the same sacrifices which they offer continually year by year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, because the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have had consciousness of sins? But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins year by year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

What defines an Antichrist in these verses?

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also."

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.

In all essence the Temple restoration movement is an Antichrist because it denies Jesus Christ.

Those are GREAT passages, and for sure there were some that got born again under Paul, but were under GREAT pressure to go back under the law. Paul was very clear what the consequences would be. However, I don't think the Jews now living in Jerusalem meditate on these verses!

As I said, God must get them from where they are now to a place He can save them. Thank God He is up to the task! Since you asked questions, I will ask: WHO was (is) the 70 weeks for?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy [Daniel's] people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you see the church in this verse?

LAMAD

 

[random person]

Those are GREAT passages, and for sure there were some that got born again under Paul, but were under GREAT pressure to go back under the law. Paul was very clear what the consequences would be. However, I don't think the Jews now living in Jerusalem meditate on these verses!

As I said, God must get them from where they are now to a place He can save them. Thank God He is up to the task! Since you asked questions, I will ask: WHO was (is) the 70 weeks for?

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy [Daniel's] people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Do you see the church in this verse?

LAMAD

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the JEW FIRST and also to the Greek. [bless and do not curse]For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Do you see the church in this verse?

Did Jesus die for the sins of the Jews? Or for the sins of the world?

Furthermore Jews havent been living under a rock concerning the Gospel for the last 2000 years either. They are still enslaved to legalism, disbelief, and an antichrist spirit.

 

[iamlamad]

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the JEW FIRST and also to the Greek. [bless and do not curse]For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “But the righteous man shall live by faith.”

Do you see the church in this verse?

Did Jesus die for the sins of the Jews? Or for the sins of the world?

Furthermore Jews havent been living under a rock concerning the Gospel for the last 2000 years either. They are still enslaved to legalism, disbelief, and an antichrist spirit.

You are MISSING something: God made promises to them HE WILL NOT BREAK.

DID you just MISS these verses?

Mat 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.


Rev 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


AT the midpoint of the future 70th week, JEWS (and perhaps some from other tribes) those living in JUDEA, will flee into the wilderness, probably into Jordan, and will be SUPERNATURALLY protected and fed.


It will be GOD doing this. Perhaps this thought irks you in some way. As I said before, God is going to get them to the place, FINALLY, where they are forced to turn to God or die. The 70th week is for THEM. Here is another verse:


Dan 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.


Some translations say SHATTER. Many in Israel feel somewhat safe because of their military strength. Well, God is going to take all that away from them, until they have NO WHERE ELSE TO TURN but to Him. Yet, still they will not receive Jesus as their Messiah until they SEE the nail holes in His hands and feet. But that day will come, and they (those that have survived) will mourn. Just so you understand, they will NOT be "born again." The door to the born again road will END as that door shuts at the pretrib rapture. However, those of Israel who survive will enter the millennial kingdom.


LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

Well, there it is folks. Now we have a totally different definition of salvation for Jews as for believers, in addition to a totally different use of Mt 24A. Salvation for the Jews is not to be born again but to live on through the mill. Too bad for the ones that just died this week.

 

[Interplanner]

Then there is the problem of God chastising Israel so they would believe. It is a bit harsh, compared to the Gospel, where it is "the kindness of God that leads to repentance" (Rom 2). But also, does Lamad know about the DofJ? Now, I was just thinking, with 2 million dead in Israel in 70, and the apostles and others still trying to help them believe, that what else would be harsh enough treatment to convince Israel? And yet faith did not break out all over Israel due to the DofJ. So I really don't know why God would try that again.

 

[iamlamad]

Well, there it is folks. Now we have a totally different definition of salvation for Jews as for believers, in addition to a totally different use of Mt 24A. Salvation for the Jews is not to be born again but to live on through the mill. Too bad for the ones that just died this week.

You said that right! TOO BAD for ANYONE (Jew or Gentile) to die this week WITHOUT the Lord! It does not matter, Jew or Gentile, if one dies NOT BORN AGAIN, there is only one destination for them...UNLESS someone prays them back so they get another chance.

If a Jew finds Jesus as his or her savior before they die, they will be saved, just like a Gentile, for IN JESUS, there is no difference.

There will be a difference for the 144,000! They will be raptured at the midpoint of the week as FIRSTFRUITS. That means there will be secondfruits or MORE to follow. (First always denotes more to follow)

(You will have to get up very early to twist my words!)

LAMAD

 

[iamlamad]

Then there is the problem of God chastising Israel so they would believe. It is a bit harsh, compared to the Gospel, where it is "the kindness of God that leads to repentance" (Rom 2). But also, does Lamad know about the DofJ? Now, I was just thinking, with 2 million dead in Israel in 70, and the apostles and others still trying to help them believe, that what else would be harsh enough treatment to convince Israel? And yet faith did not break out all over Israel due to the DofJ. So I really don't know why God would try that again.

You are not God and do not think like He does. He is not willing that any should perish.

LAMAD

 

[Interplanner]

LOL, so why is he going to have 2/3 of Israel die, acc. to BW, when the nations try to destroy them from the face of the earth? I wouldn't be trying to support your last statement about perishing from that kind of theology. But suit yourself.

Better to use the official version of the overall history of Israel as found in the sermon in Acts 13, given in a synagogue. The resurrection of Christ is the fulfillment of everything promised to the fathers, so that there can be justification from our sins for both Jews and the nations. Enjoy that!

 

[Interplanner]

Life in a millenium is never presented as salvation or a benefit of, that I know of. The new heavens and new earth where righteousness lives. Those who perish in that week you're thinking of, and those who reject the Gospel outright do end up at the same place. That's probably why most theologians think the week stands for something else than what you're thinking.