3rd Temple coming soon..

Bible2 · Jan 16, 2014

iamlamad said in post 905:

If the devil wanted to be God and was kicked down from the heavenlies, made to dwell ONLY on the earth, WHERE ELSE would he go to impersonate YHWH? He would go where YHWH used to dwell; in the holy of holies in the Jewish temple.

Do you mean that the devil will sit in the temple instead of the Antichrist, or that the devil is the Antichrist? If the latter, note that the devil/Satan (the dragon, Revelation 12:9) isn't the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), but the one who will empower the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:9) and who will be worshiped along with the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4). The Antichrist will be cast into the lake of fire over 1,000 years before Satan is cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 19:20 to 20:10). The Antichrist and Satan are shown to be separate persons also in Revelation 16:13. But Satan could spiritually enter the man who is the Antichrist, just as Satan spiritually entered Judas (Luke 22:3).

iamlamad said in post 905:

If the devil wanted to be God and was kicked down from the heavenlies, made to dwell ONLY on the earth, WHERE ELSE would he go to impersonate YHWH? He would go where YHWH used to dwell; in the holy of holies in the Jewish temple.

Note that neither the devil nor the Antichrist will say that he is YHWH. Instead, the Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:6). For the Antichrist will be a Gnostic (1 John 4:3), and Gnostics revile YHWH. At the same time, the Antichrist will be a Luciferian, for he will bring the world into the worship of the dragon Lucifer/Satan (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). Luciferians revile YHWH as being evil, just as YHWH rebukes Lucifer/Satan as being evil (Zechariah 3:2, Isaiah 14:12-15).

iamlamad said in post 905:

If the devil wanted to be God and was kicked down from the heavenlies, made to dwell ONLY on the earth, WHERE ELSE would he go to impersonate YHWH? He would go where YHWH used to dwell; in the holy of holies in the Jewish temple.

Regarding going into a future Jewish temple, the Antichrist will definitely do that. For no man has ever sat in the temple and proclaimed himself God, as the scriptures require will happen (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, cf. Matthew 24:15), just as no man ever fulfilled other detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, Revelation 19:19-21, and 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9. Any mistaken teaching which claims that the Antichrist has already come and gone could be employed in the future by the real Antichrist to fool some Christians into thinking that he isn't the Antichrist.

The Antichrist will fulfill 2 Thessalonians 2:4 after he by force takes control of a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stops the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices which the ultra-Orthodox Jews will have restarted in front of it, and has the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist could then make quite a show of his sitting himself in the temple and declaring himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31). In a television and internet broadcast which will be seen live by the world, he could first be shown entering the temple's most holy place in magnificent golden robes. He could then step up to the Ark of the Covenant (which could have been discovered, and placed in the temple by the Jews), and lift the Mercy Seat off of the Ark, showing the Ark to be empty. He could then look into the camera and say: "Where is YHWH? He is not here! He is a distant fraud! His power on this earth is as hollow as this empty Ark!" (The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH: Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36.)

Then the Antichrist could raise the Mercy Seat high above his head only to suddenly smash it down violently to the ground, breaking it into pieces. The piped-in sound of crowds roaring with approval could then be heard in the background. Then the Antichrist could place his hands on the Ark and stare into the camera: "WE can do better than this". He could then knock over the Ark and stamp it with his foot, bashing in its side. Two of the Antichrist's followers in robes could then quickly come in and clear away the rubble of the Mercy Seat and the Ark, while 4 more men in robes carry into the temple's most holy place a magnificent golden throne and place it right where the Ark had been before. All the men could then bow down and motion with their arms for the Antichrist to sit on the throne. He could then grandly take his seat upon it.

Glorious symphonic music could then swell as the sound of crowds roaring with approval increases. Then the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope) could enter the temple's most holy place and approach the Antichrist carrying a majestic golden crown encrusted with large diamonds and all kinds of precious stones. The Antichrist could take the crown from the pope's hands, and as the Antichrist is placing the crown on his own head, a camera could zoom in on his face as he says: "I AM THAT I AM. I AM YOUR GOD. Worship me, all ye nations of the earth!"

(cf. Revelation 13:8, Daniel 11:36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4)

*******

iamlamad said in post 914:

Mat 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Rev 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

AT the midpoint of the future 70th week, JEWS (and perhaps some from other tribes) those living in JUDEA, will flee into the wilderness, probably into Jordan, and will be SUPERNATURALLY protected and fed.

Regarding "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), note that there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today. And they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

iamlamad said in post 914:

Rev 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

The woman in Revelation 12 represents the church (which is Israel: Romans 11:1,17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29, Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). She is clothed with the sun (Revelation 12:1) of righteousness (Malachi 4:2) through her faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 3:22), just as later we see the church clothed with righteousness (Revelation 19:8). The moon under her feet (Revelation 12:1) represents Satan under her feet (Romans 16:20) as she overcomes him spiritually by her faith in Jesus (Revelation 12:11). The crown of 12 stars on her head (Revelation 12:1) represents the 12 apostles (Matthew 10:2-4, Acts 1:16-26) who have been placed over the church (1 Corinthians 12:28).

Her giving birth to the "man child" and his being caught up to the throne of God (Revelation 12:5) immediately before she flees into the wilderness for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6) represents the future, mid-tribulation catching up of the 144,000 male-virgins part of the church in their mortal bodies to the throne of God in heaven (Revelation 14:1,4,5, Textus Receptus), like Enoch and Elijah were caught up in their mortal bodies to heaven (Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11).

Her fleeing into and remaining in a protected wilderness place for a literal 3.5 years (Revelation 12:6,14) represents those in the church who will flee into and remain in divinely-protected wilderness places during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. The remnant of her seed (Revelation 12:17) represents those in the church during that time who won't flee into wilderness places, but will remain in the cities, and will be persecuted in every nation, imprisoned, and beheaded by the Antichrist (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

iamlamad said in post 914:

Dan 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Daniel 12:7b means that at Jesus' 2nd coming, he will come to a church which has been completely defeated physically by the Antichrist. For during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, he will be allowed to make war against the church and to overcome it physically in every nation (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). It's only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the church that the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will end (Daniel 12:7b), and Jesus' 2nd coming will immediately occur, at which time he will resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his 2nd coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God won't share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

shturt678s · Jan 16, 2014

iamlamad said:
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

<snip> for clarity

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

<my underline>

<snip> for clarity

Before He left, Our Great Jehovah God, YHWH, dwelled in the Temples of Israel (or at least had a presense there). WHERE in the temple? In the holy of holies, either in or on the Arc of the Covenant. In Ezekiel we read of Him leaving the Holy of Holies, then the temple, then the city, then the earth.

<my underline>

Only trying to help, ie, slight contradiction or obscurity at its best?

Deconvolute: "Sitteth in the sanctuary" - IIThess.2:4.

My point is, the God of Israel dwelled in the most holy place in the temple. If the devil wanted to be God and was kicked down from the heavenlies, made to dwell ONLY on the earth, WHERE ELSE would he go to impersonate YHWH? He would go where YHWH used to dwell; in the holy of holies in the Jewish temple. Jack, this makes perfect sense as a 5th grader would read it - as a REAL temple.

Why then do you struggle so with this concept of a real temple? Do these verses make good sense in their literal sense as a real temple?

LAMAD

Old Jack

iamlamad · Jan 16, 2014

Interplanner said:
LOL, so why is he going to have 2/3 of Israel die, acc. to BW, when the nations try to destroy them from the face of the earth? I wouldn't be trying to support your last statement about perishing from that kind of theology. But suit yourself.

Better to use the official version of the overall history of Israel as found in the sermon in Acts 13, given in a synagogue. The resurrection of Christ is the fulfillment of everything promised to the fathers, so that there can be justification from our sins for both Jews and the nations. Enjoy that!

Did you not read the verse where He will bring 1/3 "through the fire?" MUCH of the Gentile world will be wiped out - probably more than 2/3. From the days of Noah, only 8 were saved. I hope the percentage will be better this time.

LAMAD

iamlamad · Jan 16, 2014

shturt678s said:
<snip> for clarity

<my underline>

<snip> for clarity

<my underline>

Only trying to help, ie, slight contradiction or obscurity at its best?

Deconvolute: "Sitteth in the sanctuary" - IIThess.2:4.

Old Jack

YOu did not answer my last question. It seems you are blinded to the literal, and can only see the figurative. When the Beast comes, does it not say that the whole world wonders after him? Does it not say that ONLY those whose names are written in heaven will not be deceived? OF COURSE most will be deceived. I am not saying anything else but this.

If God wanted to say what you hint at, He would have come right out and said it. What He did say is that Satan BLINDS that who don't believe. He does NOT say that Satan "sitteth" in their spirit man. YOU made that up.

Why do you struggle so with the thought of a new temple where the man of sin will enter and say he is God? This is what God is saying in the most literal sense - and it makes good sense that way. So WHY do you think God was trying to make this difficult? He was not! It will be a REAL man entering a REAL temple.

Only trying to help, ie, slight contradiction or obscurity at its best?

What is the slight contradiction? I see NONE.
LAMAD

random person · Jan 16, 2014

iamlamad said:
You are MISSING something: God made promises to them HE WILL NOT BREAK.

DID you just MISS these verses?

Mat 24
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

Rev 12
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

AT the midpoint of the future 70th week, JEWS (and perhaps some from other tribes) those living in JUDEA, will flee into the wilderness, probably into Jordan, and will be SUPERNATURALLY protected and fed.

It will be GOD doing this. Perhaps this thought irks you in some way. As I said before, God is going to get them to the place, FINALLY, where they are forced to turn to God or die. The 70th week is for THEM. Here is another verse:

Dan 12
7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Some translations say SHATTER. Many in Israel feel somewhat safe because of their military strength. Well, God is going to take all that away from them, until they have NO WHERE ELSE TO TURN but to Him. Yet, still they will not receive Jesus as their Messiah until they SEE the nail holes in His hands and feet. But that day will come, and they (those that have survived) will mourn. Just so you understand, they will NOT be "born again." The door to the born again road will END as that door shuts at the pretrib rapture. However, those of Israel who survive will enter the millennial kingdom.

LAMAD

I didn't miss these verses, and the answer is quite easy...

they are all referring to Jewish Christians 70AD!

And you overlooked another piece of scripture concerning the second coming Jesus:

BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Revelation 1:7

iamlamad · Jan 16, 2014

random person said:
I didn't miss these verses, and the answer is quite easy...

they are all referring to Jewish Christians 70AD!

And you overlooked another piece of scripture concerning the second coming Jesus:

BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.

Revelation 1:7

Ha ha ha! Perhaps you were not trying to be funny, but you WERE.
How silly to say these verses are referring to 70 AD!

If you follow Matthew 24, it is in TIME SEQUENCE, from then right up to the middle of the FUTURE 70th week.....that is 70th WEEK, not 70 AD! Sorry, but saying what is coming in future as already happened in the past is JUST PLAIN SILLY. If you wish to be silly, that is your choice.

Revelation is written just as Matthew 24, in time sequence starting back then with the existing churches, then the vision of the throne room, then the seals, 1-5 broken as soon as Jesus ascended. We are waiting on the 6th seal and the signs for the future day of the Lord. From the 6th seal onward in Revelation is FUTURE.

You are just like those false teachers in Paul's day that told the Thessalonian believers that they were ALREADY in the day of the Lord. Paul straightened out their thinking: Paul's way to KNOW one is in the Day of the Lord: the man of sin must be revealed. When that happens, then one can know the Day of the Lord has come and they are IN IT.

So what you THINK happened way back there? No, the man of sin was NOT REVEALED back then, and still has not. We are not IN the Day of the Lord. FIRST must come the great departure that releases the man of sin to BE revealed - and that great departure has not come yet either.

His coming WITH His bride as seen in Rev. 19 will be 7 plus years AFTER His coming FOR His bride.

Just so you can always know: HE DID NOT "COME" in 70 AD! Titus did though!

LAMAD

shturt678s · Jan 16, 2014

iamlamad said:
YOu did not answer my last question. It seems you are blinded to the literal, and can only see the figurative. When the Beast comes, does it not say that the whole world wonders after him? Does it not say that ONLY those whose names are written in heaven will not be deceived? OF COURSE most will be deceived. I am not saying anything else but this.

If God wanted to say what you hint at, He would have come right out and said it. What He did say is that Satan BLINDS that who don't believe.

We agree to agree, ie, Satan took a beating from Michael the arch angel at the Cross, and is licking his wounds in hell (Re.20:2, etc.), however the antichristian power and propaganda (the Antichrist) sitteth in one's sanctuary, ie, one's heart unknowingly, ie, not in one's spirit, but controls one's spirit.

He does NOT say that Satan "sitteth" in their spirit man. YOU made that up.

Why do you struggle so with the thought of a new temple where the man of sin will enter and say he is God? This is what God is saying in the most literal sense - and it makes good sense that way. So WHY do you think God was trying to make this difficult? He was not! It will be a REAL man entering a REAL temple.

Only trying to help, ie, slight contradiction or obscurity at its best?

What is the slight contradiction? I see NONE.
LAMAD

No fairy tales Jack,

appreciate you and your words.

Interplanner · Jan 16, 2014

Lamad,
there is the difficulty of seeing the Thess expressions as about what was to happen in Judea shortly and there is the difficulty of seeing them as about a future event? Which is more difficult to you? Is the near fulfillment in Judea unliteral to you?

iamlamad · Jan 16, 2014

shturt678s said:
We agree to agree, ie, Satan took a beating from Michael the arch angel at the Cross, and is licking his wounds in hell (Re.20:2, etc.), however the antichristian power and propaganda (the Antichrist) sitteth in one's sanctuary, ie, one's heart unknowingly, ie, not in one's spirit, but controls one's spirit.

No fairy tales Jack,

appreciate you and your words.

Sorry, Jack, but you are still in MYTH land. Satan has been free since he usurped Adam's lease so long ago. Yes, he got soundly defeated at the cross and resurrection, but he did NOT get locked up. That is the myth land you live in. He has been free to accuse us day and night, day and night, all around the planet. He does not get locked up UNTIL after Jesus returns. Please don't tell me Jesus has already returned. That would be total nonsense! We read of His coming in Rev. 19. That is FUTURE. And AFTER His coming, Satan will be locked up.

Before that, at the midpoint of the FUTURE 70th week you seem not to believe in, Michael will cast Satan down from the heavenlies so he can NO LONGER accuse us day and night. It will be terrible for those left on the earth, for he will come with great anger, knowing his time is short. (just 3 1/2 years before he is bound up in the bottomless pit.)

Next, the antichrist to come (YES, the man of sin is also in our future)
is going to be a REAL MAN, but the leader of an assembly of nations, 7 in all. One will surely be the empire of Nebuchadnezzar, but TODAY'S nation. Another the ancient Medo-persian empire, but of TODAY. They will all be Muslim nations. He will defeat three, and will end up the 8th king. (Ten minus 3 equals 7 nations with 7 kings) He will be above the 7. He will be taken when Jesus returns as in Rev. 19, and cast into the lake of fire with the false prophet.

Jack, have you MISSED the fact that these two RULE and DECEIVE the entire world from JERUSELEM? That is why God calls the great city the "great Wh**e Babylon. The ENTIRE WORLD will be deceived by the false miracles done right there in Jerusalem. It will be the Beast's HOME for 3 1/2 years. YOu know as well as I that this has NEVER HAPPENED. That makes it FUTURE. Wake up, Jack, I said FUTURE!

Jack, we are still miles apart in beliefs - and it is YOU still living in MYTH land. Much of Revelation has never happened. You must twist and change the literal meaning or just ignore the literal meaning to even think some events are history. What are you gaining by all this? NO ONE in their right mind would even think the 5th and 6th trumpets were something in our past. Jack, you need to get out of the preterist dreamland and come over into reality.

LAMAD

iamlamad · Jan 16, 2014

Interplanner said:
Lamad,
there is the difficulty of seeing the Thess expressions as about what was to happen in Judea shortly and there is the difficulty of seeing them as about a future event? Which is more difficult to you? Is the near fulfillment in Judea unliteral to you?

Specify a verse.

shturt678s · Jan 17, 2014

iamlamad said:
Sorry, Jack, but you are still in MYTH land. Satan has been free since he usurped Adam's lease so long ago. Yes, he got soundly defeated at the cross and resurrection, but he did NOT get locked up. That is the myth land you live in.

He has been free to accuse us day and night, day and night, all around the planet.

One itsy bitsy defect, ie, your proposition is based upon a false premise again my friend. Rev.12:10, "Thrown was he" (three statements) is the antithesis of being "free to accuse us day and night, all around the planet."

The whole point of this Hebrew type poetry of this vision: the mouth of the great accuser is foreverrr stoppeddd. As the serpent he deceives, as the devil he slanders, as Satan he lies in ambush. "Thrown was he" never again to raise his voice in accusation. This is the mighty effect of God's deeds through the Son. Salvation is, indeed, complete, ie, let's not have to recrucify the Son of man again my friend.

He does not get locked up UNTIL after Jesus returns. Please don't tell me Jesus has already returned. That would be total nonsense! We read of His coming in Rev. 19. That is FUTURE. And AFTER His coming, Satan will be locked up.

Before that, at the midpoint of the FUTURE 70th week you seem not to believe in, Michael will cast Satan down from the heavenlies so he can NO LONGER accuse us day and night. It will be terrible for those left on the earth, for he will come with great anger, knowing his time is short. (just 3 1/2 years before he is bound up in the bottomless pit.)

Next, the antichrist to come (YES, the man of sin is also in our future)
is going to be a REAL MAN, but the leader of an assembly of nations, 7 in all. One will surely be the empire of Nebuchadnezzar, but TODAY'S nation. Another the ancient Medo-persian empire, but of TODAY. They will all be Muslim nations. He will defeat three, and will end up the 8th king. (Ten minus 3 equals 7 nations with 7 kings) He will be above the 7. He will be taken when Jesus returns as in Rev. 19, and cast into the lake of fire with the false prophet.

Jack, have you MISSED the fact that these two RULE and DECEIVE the entire world from JERUSELEM? That is why God calls the great city the "great Wh**e Babylon. The ENTIRE WORLD will be deceived by the false miracles done right there in Jerusalem. It will be the Beast's HOME for 3 1/2 years. YOu know as well as I that this has NEVER HAPPENED. That makes it FUTURE. Wake up, Jack, I said FUTURE!

Jack, we are still miles apart in beliefs - and it is YOU still living in MYTH land. Much of Revelation has never happened. You must twist and change the literal meaning or just ignore the literal meaning to even think some events are history. What are you gaining by all this? NO ONE in their right mind would even think the 5th and 6th trumpets were something in our past. Jack, you need to get out of the preterist dreamland and come over into reality.

LAMAD

Old Jack

shturt678s · Jan 17, 2014

iamlamad said:
Ha ha ha! Perhaps you were not trying to be funny, but you WERE.
How silly to say these verses are referring to 70 AD!

If you follow Matthew 24, it is in TIME SEQUENCE, from then right up to the middle of the FUTURE 70th week.....that is 70th WEEK, not 70 AD! Sorry, but saying what is coming in future as already happened in the past is JUST PLAIN SILLY. If you wish to be silly, that is your choice.

Revelation is written just as Matthew 24, in time sequence starting back then with the existing churches, then the vision of the throne room, then the seals, 1-5 broken as soon as Jesus ascended. We are waiting on the 6th seal and the signs for the future day of the Lord. From the 6th seal onward in Revelation is FUTURE.

You are just like those false teachers in Paul's day that told the Thessalonian believers that they were ALREADY in the day of the Lord. Paul straightened out their thinking: Paul's way to KNOW one is in the Day of the Lord: the man of sin must be revealed. When that happens, then one can know the Day of the Lord has come and they are IN IT.

So what you THINK happened way back there? No, the man of sin was NOT REVEALED back then, and still has not. We are not IN the Day of the Lord. FIRST must come the great departure that releases the man of sin to BE revealed - and that great departure has not come yet either.

His coming WITH His bride as seen in Rev. 19 will be 7 plus years AFTER His coming FOR His bride.

Just so you can always know: HE DID NOT "COME" in 70 AD! Titus did though!

LAMAD

Matt.24:14, "and then shall come the end," then in Matt.24:27, "the Parousia of the Son of man." So Matt.24 is chronological thus the end of the world at v.27 comes next after the end of the world in v.14

Old Jack,

Hope you don't come up with "3" endings of the world?

Interplanner · Jan 17, 2014

Good point Jack. The language only clearly leaves the 1st century Judean situation at v29. The world's end was meant to be right after that, but allowed to be later, as has turned out to be the case. Otherwise there is contortion.

iamlamad · Jan 17, 2014

shturt678s said:
One itsy bitsy defect, ie, your proposition is based upon a false premise again my friend. Rev.12:10, "Thrown was he" (three statements) is the antithesis of being "free to accuse us day and night, all around the planet."

The whole point of this Hebrew type poetry of this vision: the mouth of the great accuser is foreverrr stoppeddd. As the serpent he deceives, as the devil he slanders, as Satan he lies in ambush. "Thrown was he" never again to raise his voice in accusation. This is the mighty effect of God's deeds through the Son. Salvation is, indeed, complete, ie, let's not have to recrucify the Son of man again my friend. Old Jack

You are 180 degrees OUT from the intent of the author!

Have you studied the verbs John used in these visions? Most of them are Aorist verbs which have NO TIMING included. In English we have no such verbs. We cannot use a verb without giving away WHEN with VERY few exceptions. So "thrown was he" is not exactly what John wrote. And if you notice, much of Revelation has been translated into past tense for lack of any better way to do it. You simply cannot go by what you think the tense should be. Rather we must go by context.

The truth of this passage must come then, from the chapters before. John is giving us a narrative of the vision or visions, and they are painting a picture of the FUTURE. He could not have been "thrown was he" sometime in the past, because NONE of chapter 11 has come to pass yet. It is FUTURE. And all but the first five verses of chapter 12 (they are written as a parenthesis) are also future.

Jack, I am VERY surprised at this answer. I was sure you knew this.

John DID use some future tense verbs, but not many. When he wrote of the two witnesses: "I will give" and "they will testify" are Greek future tense verbs. Why did John use future tense here? My guess is, the Holy Spirit knew that many would think the two witnesses would testify in the first half of the week, when in truth, it will be the second half. Since chapter 11 is at the midpoint, using the future tense points to the second half of the week.

In Chapter 12, John did use one present tense verb: Satan deceives present tense......probably to be understood from the time John was writing.

Another thing: it says Satan AND his angels were cast out with him. Jack, look around! See all the evil in the world. Please understand, neither Satan nor his angels are at this present time bound up or locked up. they have been free the entire church age to deceive, steal, kill and destroy. That is what they do.

LAMAD

shturt678s · Jan 17, 2014

Interplanner said:
Good point Jack. The language only clearly leaves the 1st century Judean situation at v29. The world's end was meant to be right after that, but allowed to be later, as has turned out to be the case. Otherwise there is contortion.

Long ago I use to complain as to why so much class time and energy in all the secondary books of the bible, ie, Apocrapha, and etc, and etc. After meeting my new freind Lamad, ie, now I know fully why: The ancients did not think chronologically like we do in English.

Old Jack, hopefully in synchronous with the ancient's way of their structure of thoughts.

shturt678s · Jan 17, 2014

iamlamad said:
You are 180 degrees OUT from the intent of the author!

Have you studied the verbs John used in these visions? Most of them are Aorist verbs which have NO TIMING included.

All Greek to me, however, 1st Semester stuff: Rev.12:9, eBlethe Aorist past tense, however note 3 Aorist in the Indicatives (Aorist: action simply occurring without reference to its progress - time found only in the "indictative,") ie, action attained already here grammatically in the "indicative," and contextually comports my friend.

In English we have no such verbs. We cannot use a verb without giving away WHEN with VERY few exceptions. So "thrown was he" is not exactly what John wrote. And if you notice, much of Revelation has been translated into past tense for lack of any better way to do it. You simply cannot go by what you think the tense should be. Rather we must go by context.

The truth of this passage must come then, from the chapters before. John is giving us a narrative of the vision or visions, and they are painting a picture of the FUTURE. He could not have been "thrown was he" sometime in the past, because NONE of chapter 11 has come to pass yet. It is FUTURE. And all but the first five verses of chapter 12 (they are written as a parenthesis) are also future.

Jack, I am VERY surprised at this answer. I was sure you knew this.

John DID use some future tense verbs, but not many. When he wrote of the two witnesses: "I will give" and "they will testify" are Greek future tense verbs. Why did John use future tense here? My guess is, the Holy Spirit knew that many would think the two witnesses would testify in the first half of the week, when in truth, it will be the second half. Since chapter 11 is at the midpoint, using the future tense points to the second half of the week.

In Chapter 12, John did use one present tense verb: Satan deceives present tense......probably to be understood from the time John was writing.

Another thing: it says Satan AND his angels were cast out with him. Jack, look around! See all the evil in the world. Please understand, neither Satan nor his angels are at this present time bound up or locked up. they have been free the entire church age to deceive, steal, kill and destroy. That is what they do.

LAMAD

Old Jack

iamlamad · Jan 17, 2014

shturt678s said:
All Greek to me, however, 1st Semester stuff: Rev.12:9, eBlethe Aorist past tense, however note 3 Aorist in the Indicatives (Aorist: action simply occurring without reference to its progress - time found only in the "indictative,") ie, action attained already here grammatically in the "indicative," and contextually comports my friend.

Old Jack

[FONT=arial, helvetica]The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense,[/FONT]

[FONT=arial, helvetica]The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood.

[/FONT]

indicative Please note, "really occurs" or "has occurred" or "will occur."

As I said, Aorist verbs are considered "without regard for past, present, or future time." We have no such verbs.

So when John wrote "were

[FONT=arial, helvetica, 'sans serif'] [/FONT]

cast

[FONT=arial, helvetica, 'sans serif'] [/FONT]

out" it appears to have tense, giving away WHEN, but in truth, it does not. Timing is simply NOT INCLUDED in this Greek verb.

"The aorist usually implies a past event in the indicative, but it does not assert pastness, and can be used of present or future events." Wikipedia

However, I am NOT a Greek scholar and can only go by what I read. I never took Greek. It is great that you did.

Did you notice this verse?
Rev 21:1
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

This Greek word is
Tense: